Looking to buy a HD Camcorder

[Nightmare]

I am starting my research on the HD camcorders. I have an older Sony DCR-SC100 and that is about the last time I did any research.

I think we want an internal HDD. Now that the internal HDDs are up to 100 GB I think we can move away from the DV tapes.

For some reason I can't find many camcorder reviews online. Can anyone point me to a couple web sites?

[MJA]

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/d/Reviews&level_b=Camcorder&level_c=HD.htm


few guys on this forum( racer-x,and zoobie ) bought the Canon HV20 MiniDV High Def.

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic330059.html?highlight=canon%20hv20

[edDV]

I also bought the Canon HV20 and am happy with it so far. You can't buy an HD camcoder with hard drive* except for MPEG4 AVCHD format which currently is a bear for editing. I'd advise HDV format and tape.

Camcorderinfo.com has a good comparison review of various HDV, AVCHD and MPeg2 HD camcorders. If you can wait a year momentum may shift to MPeg4 but for now buyer beware. In a year you also may see HDV camcorders with built in hard drive.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/The-Great-HD-Shoot-Out---Canon-HV20-Sony-HDR-HC7-...d-Handling.htm


* You can add a Firestore FS4 hard drive to a DV/HDV camcorder but they still cost $700. http://www.videoguys.com/FireStore.html

[Nightmare]

What about the JVC GZHD7US

It is a 3 CCD Camcorder that ways it records in MPEG2 to the 60 BG Hard Drive.

It is a little pricey at $1,300 to $1,500, but looks like a nice camera.

Is this logic correct?

The most important factor in Picture Quality is the CCD.
MPEG 2 is the current "standard" for "DVD Quality"
MPEG 4 is a newer standard with high compression and no additional loss in quality
The new AVCHD is the same thing as MPEG4

[Soopafresh]

MPEG 4 is a newer standard with high compression and no additional loss in quality
The new AVCHD is the same thing as MPEG4

Nope. It looks okay, but it isn't as nice as MPEG2. And it is always PAFF interlaced, which makes it difficult to play back. Editing is a drag as well. Better have a quad core.

[edDV]

What about the JVC GZHD7US

It is a 3 CCD Camcorder that ways it records in MPEG2 to the 60 BG Hard Drive.

It is a little pricey at $1,300 to $1,500, but looks like a nice camera.

Is this logic correct?

The most important factor in Picture Quality is the CCD.
MPEG 2 is the current "standard" for "DVD Quality"
MPEG 4 is a newer standard with high compression and no additional loss in quality
The new AVCHD is the same thing as MPEG4

Read the camcorderinfo comparison. They didn't find equal picture quality although it had style and handled well.

[racer-x]

edDV wrote:

I also bought the Canon HV20 and am happy with it so far.

Congratulations, I think you're going to love that camera. It's quite an amazing camera for the money.

My advise to the OP, is download as many sample clips from prospective cameras as you can and compare. In my opinion, AVCHD is still in it's infancy and will improve greatly in coming years. Of all the various HD footage I looked at, HDV gave the best quality and is easiest to edit. AVCHD gives good quality, but needs a very powerful CPU to work with it.

I did figure out a way to edit AVCHD in Premiere without using an Intermediate Codec:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic334524.html

[Sal C]

I'm very happy with my Sony HDR-HC7. A bit pricy but awesome quality. Stills are nice too...

[Nightmare]

These two camcorders look very interesting:

Hitachi DZBD7HA

Blu Ray and internal HDD

• Recording Format
HDD: 30GB HDD (Embedded)
BD1: MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
(BD-R Ver.2.0/BD-RE Ver.3.0)
DVD1: MPEG-2 (DVD VR/DVD-Video Mode)

I can’t figure out if I can transfer data from the HDD to the PC, or if everything must be burned to the DVD or Blu Ray


Panasonic HDC-SX5

SD Card slot for video and DVD
Plus a 40 GB External Drive that you can use to download the SD cards.
This seems like a very cool idea.

Compression HD: MPEG4-AVC/H.264 (AVCHD standard compliant)


So as of today:

Full HD is 1920×1080 ?
With the 1080 being of the “i” variety.

My DLP TV is only 720P and I don’t think anything is even broadcast in 1080p yet. But it looks like everything is moving in that direction.

[MJA]

"The DZ-BD7H and DZ-BD70 will both start selling in Japan on August 30, but won't hit U.S. shelves until October; they're expected to sell for about $1,500 and $1,300"

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic334381.html

[edDV]

These two camcorders look very interesting:

Hitachi DZBD7HA

Panasonic HDC-SX5

If all you want is to record and play from the camera (or Blu-Ray DVD) then go for it. If you want to edit on a computer, you need to understand all the limitations of AVCHD MPeg4.

In other words, don't come home crying when you didn't do your homework. Some would say AVCHD is a "Nightmare".

[Soopafresh]

Maybe not quite a "Nightmare", but a major PITA.

[edDV]

Maybe not quite a "Nightmare", but a major PITA.

Agreed. I was playing off his nick.

[kadzbiz]

The HV20 after all my reading of reviews etc seems bar far the best option without going to much more expensive pro cameras. And, I'm buying the NTSC model as it's $700 AUD cheaper than the PAL model. Seeing how I'm only going to run it thru the PC anyway, who cares that it's in NTSC?! Not me..... Good to hear more good feedback on the HV20.

[jg0001]

I just bought a SONY HDR-SR7, 60 GB HD camera... records "effectively" 1440x1080i, but displays 1920x1080... the difference is a square to non-square pixel adjustment (or somesuch). (there is an SR8 model, with a 100GB HDD, but it is $200 more everywhere; otherwise no differences)

My process is this:
1) record to HDD
2) camcorder on the dock, usb cable from dock to the PC, camcorder shows up as another HDD (I don't use the included software much)
3) copy contents to local HDD....
4) for playback, either copy video to a THUMB DRIVE or burn it to a DVD+/-R and play it on PS3 or any other BluRay drive (the PS3 will play right off of a thumbdrive too)

For me, this is far easier than my old mini-DV process. Grant it, editting may take longer... but if I have NO INTENTION of downgrading the video to DVD quality, I have no worries about it.

Other cameras, including some JVCs, stress 3 CCDs and 1920x1080, but in reality, they achieve lower "effective" resolution when tested. In fact, ALL of these cameras fail to get much beyond 600 lines of res in testing (see the links for the info sites).

When looking, check out the EFFECTIVE pixel count and try to find reviews that test resolvable lines and low light.

[Nightmare]

I found another camcorder that looks promising:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=15617

Everyone likes the Canon HV20.

This is the HG10 with the internal HDD. I would hope is has all the features and picture quality of the HV20, but with the HDD instead of the tapes.

[Soopafresh]

Nice indeed, but it is AVCHD h264, so there's the advantage if you have a Blu Ray burner/player. If you don't, it's going to be more work converting the file to another more easily editable format.

[zoobie]

Actually, I bought the HC5 with LANC that the HV20 is missing...After going thru a nightmare with my HDD's, I would never trust a cam using this method. You'll just make the file recovery industry richer.

[Soopafresh]

Looks nice, zoobie - and Mpeg2 to boot. Only $800 on J&R.

[racer-x]

Nightmare wrote:

I found another camcorder that looks promising:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct& ... elid=15617

Everyone likes the Canon HV20.

This is the HG10 with the internal HDD. I would hope is has all the features and picture quality of the HV20, but with the HDD instead of the tapes.

Here is a review of that camera:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HG10-Camcorder-Review-33146.htm

[zoobie]

Without a LANC & tripod, you're stuck with a true handycam and amateur video...but that's probably fine with most consumers just shooting their families and vacations. I'm sure the research has shown the average consumer just wants HD & convenience to display video on their new HD tv's.

If cams lose half their retail value the first year and you can wait, there are some bargains to be picked up early next year.

[Nightmare]

We have a new puppy and a baby on the way. It is going to be a "home movie" type usage 90% of the time.

I found this article from 2004

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/howto/articles/UnderstandingHDFormats.aspx

Are the HDV tapes roughly 500 GB per tape?

Double Layer DVD is 8.5 GB

Single Layer Blu-Ray is 25 GB

Double Layer Blu-Ray is 50 GB

8 CM Blu-Ray is 7.5 GB

I guess that shows why the HDD recorders need to compress the video more.

[edDV]

...
Are the HDV tapes roughly 500 GB per tape?

Normal 63 minute HDV tapes have about 14GB capacity same as miniDV. Quality MiniDV tapes can be used to record HDV.

[royalrepis]

Zoobie: Please excuse a noob asking a dumb question? But what is Lanc? & what is it for? Thank you,

[Nightmare]

New article. Toshiba HD Camcorders are on the way

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Toshiba-Enters-the-Race-with-Four-HD-Camcorders-33375.htm

Not an actual review. And it looks like they use another encoding format :/

Still no reviews on the Hitachi Blu Ray guys yet...

[edDV]

LANC is and older (Sony) remote control port. I think Zoobie uses it to remote zoom and record stop controls to the tripod arm. Handy for tripod camera control. I may be wrong.



Or a foot record switch

[Soopafresh]

Nightmare - those Toshibas are still storing the video as AVCHD

[dun4cheap]

Well I figured I would chime in here. I purchased the Canon HV10 when it was first released. While its unique design was not the greatest and the fact that the tape loaded from the bottom which is a RPITA for tripod use it had a superb picture and performed relatively well in low light situations. However, almost from the day that I bought it I was baffled that the specifications supplied by Canon stated it could record to tape at 1920x1080 when in reality it could not. Anyhow, I used it for about 5-6 months for some work I had lined up not to mention filming my kids highschool sports (water polo and and softball) which came out great. At the same time I was battling with Canon over the specifications. In the end I had some shooting down time, the HV20 had come out and Canon offered me my money back for the HV10. So I did what any smart man would do, and got my $1200 back, not from Canon but Circuit City, and finally broke down last month and purchased the Canon HV20 for $800 from Circuit City. This camera in my opinion has a better design then the HV10 with the top load and its move back to a typical camcorder design. As for the image quality, it is just as crisp as the HV10 so I am happy with this and I already know that Avid Liquid can easily handle editing the footage from this camera in an HD/SD timeline. With all of this I wanted to point out a few things that I always look for no matter what camera I choose.

Fact#1 It must record to Tape.

Detailed explanation for Fact #1:

At this point I don't think there is a better archival method for the price. Optical media is just not tested enough. As for HDD models, they may seem quick and easy to transfer media to the computer, but if you get lazy and don't archive it then chances are you will not have the footage 10-20 years from now. But if you decide to archive it, will it be a compressed or degraded archival method. I am confident that the HDV video I shoot now on to DV tape will look better than any archived DVD quality mpeg in the future. Not to mention the fact that Tape has been proven to be a long life archive method.

A great reminder of the importance of all of this was just a month or two ago. My 16 year old daughter had to do a video of her growing up for school. Being a video junky I was all over this. Back in the day when I was just 19 and she was born, I didn't have a lot of time or money to edit my videos, but I did have an 8mm camcorder where I had managed to record many many hours of tapes of recorded video of her growing up. You know what, those tapes 16 years later were easily captured, plus I had some DV Tapes as well with plenty of video. Anyhow, the point here is if they were on DVD or on a hdd camcorder, I am not sure I would be able to pull the video from a rotted DVD, and I probably would not have the video from the HDD camcorder, because I procrastinate and by the time I chose to archive the footage my hard drive had failed, or it was lost between one of my computer upgrades or I erased it off of the camcorder because I had to record something more important and I was out of space.

Fact #2 Top loading recorders are a must for tripod use:

Detailed Reason:

I shoot cheer competitions which are edited and sold by leagues. These events typically go for 8 hours. I usually utilize 3 cameras. 1 unmanned on the floor which records straight to hard drive. (Not used for arhival purposes.) Two other cameras are up top, one shoots the entrance point and the other shoots the main field. These two cameras I record to tape. So if I had to take them off the tripod to change tapes we are talking 5 minute delay every hour. Not to mention that the tripod moves etc. Top load cameras are a must.

Fact #3 Low Light capabilities.

Detailed Reason:

The fact is your camera should be able to handle all planned and unplanned situations including low light conditions. Bar none the Canon and Sony camcorders have usually faired the best over the rest. The Canon HV20 has been give big thumbs up on the low light stuff especially in 24P mode. I can tell you from experience that the HV10 did really well in lowlight stadium situations such as girls water polo games.

Fact #4 HD or SD (HD all the way)

Detailed Reason:

What many do not think about is the fact that HD offers twice the resolution of SD. So even if your exporting to SD DVD, the advantage of having HD footage is overwhelming. It is no different then having an 8MegaPixel picture over a 2 megapixel picture. So the first big thing that stands out here is that you can pan and zoom on the HD footage if your exporting to SD and still have a nice crisp shot. So when you thought you missed that close up shot, remember if you shot it in HD and are exporting it to DVD, then pan and zoom on it.

Anyhow, sorry for the rambling, but if your in the market for a new camcorder then these are some important things to check regardless of brand. Lastly, at this point HDV is the best way to go at the moment. This may change eventually, but recording to tape will always help me decide ultimately.

[edDV]

...
What many do not think about is the fact that HD offers twice the resolution of SD. So even if your exporting to SD DVD, the advantage of having HD footage is overwhelming. It is no different then having an 8MegaPixel picture over a 2 megapixel picture. So the first big thing that stands out here is that you can pan and zoom on the HD footage if your exporting to SD and still have a nice crisp shot. So when you thought you missed that close up shot, remember if you shot it in HD and are exporting it to DVD, then pan and zoom on it.

That is an excellent point. Many are ignoring the reframing advantage before downsizing for DVD. It gives the ability to reframe the shot in post. To take the best advantage of this, one must shoot a bit wide in the field.

[Nightmare]

Thanks for the info Dun. I still have my Sony DCR-SC100 and about 20 DV tapes. I didn't have a DVD burner or a top end PC when I purchased that Camcorder and editing the DV tape on a 40 GB Hard Drive was just a pain. I have multiple 250 GB drives now, so I can pull off the whole tape at full quality