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Originally Posted by SCDVD
I understand some people love the DV tape experience, but I personally won't buy into them. For me, this camera appears to give the HDV without the tapes. Other than it being a JVC (and their reputation) and lack of optical image stabilization, I'm highly tempted by the GZ-HD40. It even goes one better than HDV by giving 1980x1080 square pixels as a recording option, at 26.6 mb/sec mpeg2.
Any thoughts? Am I missing something big? -
Camcorder Info has a comprehensive review of theJVC-GZ-HD40 here
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/JVC-Everio-GZ-HD40-Camcorder-Review-35331.htm -
I was a little confused by the review. The review is positive:
While it certainly doesn't simplify operation for the average consumer, it opens up a whole new world of compatibility with editing systems.
It's not a perfect camcorder, but it's a damn fine one if you ask us. There's no doubt that it produces the best looking video we've seen from an Everio so far. The low light performance, multiple compression options, manual controls, and massive capacity make the GZ-HD40 a strong contender against the Canon HF10 and Sony HDR-SR11
First, the obstacles: JVC has chosen the MPEG-2 TS format over the competing AVCHD format, the latter being clearly more popular and therefore more commonly compatible with editing software.
JVC has finally joined the kids at the popular table by allowing the camcorder to record in AVCHD, while maintaining the ability to record in MPEG-2 TS.
They like the GZ-HD40 like a basketball coach likes a tall dwarf--better than the other Everio camcorders but no place for it compared to the Canon HF10/HF100 or Sony HDR-SR11.
Why is there no interest in tapeless HDV/mpeg2? Has the marketing of AVCHD won, or is it a better option? [My personal bias is that tapeless HDV is pretty cool at this price, but I'm not sure what I'm missing.]
Thanks,
Tim -
mass storage is missing. tapes have been a pretty ideal medium for quite a while and are still. at about $2 for 13GB, and small in size they are hard to beat. store the tape and you will always have your original footage. their only drawback is the real time transfer to computer.
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Originally Posted by tmw
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The bitrate on the newer AVCHD cameras (Canon HG20, HG21) has gone up to 25Mbps, but I do agree on the hassle factor of AVCHD. The average consumer doesn't realize that they'll need a faster processor and updated software to process the footage.
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If you do decide to buy an AVCHD camcorder, it's a good idea to verify that the editing software that you intend to use is compatible with the AVCHD video from the camera you intend to buy. The AVCHD formats from the various camera manufacturers are not universally compatible with specific editing software. You should also plan on using a "muscle" processor to handle the demands of editing AVCHD. The bare minimum should be a Quadcore Q6600 or better yet, the newer Intel Core i7 processor. You can't have too much computer speed for AVCHD editing.
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HDV makes more sense and is higher quality for professional style workflow. The JVC HD40 did fill the hole for an MPeg2 HDD camcorder but the cam section didn't measured up per Camcorderinfo.com.
HDV has a path up through pro XDCAM-EX/HD. XDCAM allows variable bit rates 16-35Mb/s and records MPeg2 to flash memory or Blu_Ray disk. HDV has fixed bit rate at 25Mb/s. I expect Sony's plan is to bring XDCAM down for the serious prosumer with an entry XDCAM model that will replace prosumer HDV.
According to Camcorderinfo, HDV still looks better first generation vs. latest AVCHD but the gap is closing. MPeg2 recodes much better than AVCHD so is more appropriate for editing and professional workflows. Most consumer edit packages simply convert AVCHD to MPeg2 on import which is an extra recode in the path.
AVCHD quality can be maintained if one cut edits on I frames or uses Digital Intermediate formats. In time computers will get more powerful to make native H.264 editing more tolerable. One strategy may be inclusion of hardware codecs.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Thanks, these are good points. I am telling myself that poor rendering in a friendly format is worse than great rendering in a difficult format. However, my footage is mainly home videos, so it isn't that great to begin with.
I do still think the GZ-HD40 sounds pretty cool (even if not the best rendering), but I'll continue to sleep on it for a little bit.
Thanks,
Tim -
Please,
Is there as NOW (jan 09) a sw that allows AVCHD editing without reencoding at all ? Premiere Pro CS4 ? Any other cheaper one ?
Thanks,
Zetti -
Originally Posted by Zetti
http://www.cineform.com/products/NeoScene.htm
Otherwise for no recode, just cut on I frames (about a half second increment).Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Originally Posted by Zetti
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Originally Posted by edDV
http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/supportedformats.html
and specially:
http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/pdfs/prempro_cs4_formatguide.pdf
Thanks,
Zetti -
Originally Posted by Zetti
* Unless you are editing an uncompressed timeline with RAID storage.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Thanks to edDV and all that replied,
I know that this subject is long, but, in a single approach, would AVCHD in a year or two kill HDV ?
I still have a MiniDV camera, but now, like 99% in the world, it's time to upgrade......since I could use PP and Encore CS4 to edit and author my HD movies, it'd be OK.
Thanks,
Zetti -
Originally Posted by Zetti
Pro workflow favors lower compressed acquisition formats because editing and filtering are expected. XDCAM-EX is a superset of HDV with lower compression options 18 to 50 Mb/s MPeg2 vs. 25Mb/s fixed for HDV*. I see HDV being replaced by XDCAM-EX at the Prosumer level including the addition of flash media recording. DV tape, while inexpensive, is only practical at the 25Mb/s rate.
Above that you have AVCIntra which records intact frames with h.264 intraframe compression. Bit rates are 50Mb/s or 100Mb/s.
Originally Posted by Zetti
* The HDV format was a spin-off from the pro XDCAM-HD project back around 2003.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Originally Posted by Zetti
Seriously, five years ago you could count on one hand the number of software programs that worked with MPEG2 natively.
AVCHD requires more processor support (more complex algorithym) than MPEG2, hence many people state you need an upgraded computer to play it. Pet bit of video, AVCHD has the best detail. AVCHD also has the marketing down, even if it's not technically all that over MPEG2 of same bit-rate and resolution.
So, I wouldn't bet my life savings, but I would wager a frosty beverage that AVCHD has much longer legs than HDV today--even though the smart people here (and they are extremely knowledgable and competent) might say otherwise.
I'd also venture that quality glass and sensors are more important than the format it records. It's like how a 4 mega-pixel camera with a huge sensor and nice glass can take better pictures than a 16 megapixel camera phone. The lighting, lens, composition, stabilization, and other factors are just much more impactful on the final product than if it recorded in HDV or AVCHD. -
Originally Posted by tmw
Second, current side by side comparisons of similar HDV vs. AVCHD camcorders (e.g. the Canon HV20/30 vs HF/HG series) still show first generation picture quality advantage to MPeg2 chipsets even at similar 20-25Mb/s bitrates. This is aside from the recode advantages for MPeg2. This reflects the current state of the art for consumer level real time hardware h.264 encoding chips which is likely to improve over the years.
The reason AVCHD is accepted at the consumer level is that market will trade picture quality for convenience and initial investment cost. AVC h.264 @ 6-15 Mb/s was needed to fit acceptable recording minutes into 2nd speed level flash ram media. As flash RAM speeds and capacities improve, higher bit rates can be used to get better picture quality but like VHS history, the consumer is likely to use the lower bit rates to extend recording minutes.
The prosumer segment is more likely to seek higher acquisition quality and will have a production workflow in mind when selecting a camcorder format. This segment struggles with the cost of flash media for larger projects and the realities of editing AVCHD. DV tape is currently far cheaper and provides an instant backup. So for people doing work today, HDV is still the preferred acquisition format. Sony can provide an MPeg2 flash ram solution by moving the XDCAM-EX format down into the $2K range replacing HDV for the quality conscious prosumer market.
I see HDV just as a version of XDCAM optimized for DV tape. The XDCAM format can cover the 15-50 Mb/s range with variable quality settings.
Over time, flash RAM costs will come down and replace tape. Digital intermediate work flows will solve many of the AVCHD editing issues. New AVCHD camcorder chipsets will improve acquisition quality. At the same time the higher end AVC-Intra format will push MPeg2 XDCAM from the high end. I think that means Sony will be fighting back with lower cost XDCAM-EX products for the prosumer to TV news/reality segments.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Dear edDV and all,
I hadn't seen your reply, now I got it, thanks so much. My decision now is to wait an extra year and then I'll probably go the AVCHD way, so my current Mini-DV camera will have an extra life
Zetti
Originally Posted by edDV -
Wow, I'm surprised you would go with AVCHD after all the info that's been given. It will take additional expenses beside the camcorder alone to work with that format. You'll need a new computer, new software, etc. AVC-Intra is an emerging pro format that will cost big bucks.
The death of HDV is not as imminent as you may think. Further development of AVCHD-friendly editing software may slow with the economy. -
I have young children. They change a lot year by year. Still, I waited until my SD camcorder broke before buying an HD one. I now regret only having SD for those years!
SD on an HDTV:
http://www.david.robinson.org/pics/sdhd.jpg
HD on an HDTV:
http://www.david.robinson.org/pics/hd.jpg
What do you want your memories to look like?
I also regret not having a working SD camcorder now to dub all my old tapes onto my PC. (I didn't do them all when they were first filmed). It seems a waste to wear out an HV20 to do the job. So I'll probably buy another SD camcorder (or, more likely, get my old one fixed) anyway!
If I'd retired it a year earlier, it would probably still work now, and I'd have a year's extra HD footage.
Cheers,
David. -
Indeed, AVCHD is not a pro format. The emerging AVC-Intra variation, however, is a different beast that Panasonic is trying to promote as a "pro" format. Waste of time, methinks.
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Hi,
Well, I'll need a new computer anyway, regardless footage stuff, and with Neoscene things may not go so bad.
Considering all the information that's been given, I realized that HDV is more or less mature already, and AVCHD is a young baby....
English is not my mother tongue, so all the technical writing seems a bit confusing for me sometimes, but that's what I've understood 8)
Looking at the pictures that another friend posted, I'll have to reconsider buying NOW a HD camera, I also have children and they're the main reason for my video stuff now;
Thanks,
Zetti
Originally Posted by filmboss80 -
Originally Posted by filmboss80
Panasonic's FAQ for AVC-Intra details all the deficiencies of AVCHD as a pro format.
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/papers/AVCIntra%20FAQs.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVC-Intra
HDCAM is the broadcast high end transition standard but is getting long in the tooth and needs replacement. The main advantage for HDCAM was compatibility with SD SMPTE 259M SDI infrastructure.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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Originally Posted by Zetti
AVCHD+digital intermediate (e.g. Neo Scene, Apple Intermediate Codec, etc.) is an acceptable consumer solution but AVCHD is not likely to be accepted as a pro format. It depends whether you need to interact with the pro community.Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
http://www.kiva.org/about -
I am greatly enjoying learning so much from this post, and I hope this doesn't taking things off track. But, why do so many formats use 3/4 horizontal scaling (e.g. recording 960x720 instead of 1280x720 and 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080) even in pro versions?
Some recent AVCHD camcorders (e.g. Canon HF-10) stopped the practice, but I was surprised that AVC-Intra 50 still does use 3/4 horizontal scaling, like HDV.
Looking forward, do you think this horizontal scaling will continue to occur? Or is that largely a relic of the past? Would horizontal scaling affect your HD camcorder purchase decision? -
1440x1080 is an HDV standard, hence the various companies who record in that manner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV
Would I make a decision to buy a camcorder which shoots at full 1920x1080 rather than 1440x1080? It depends on the camera. There's only 1 or 2 HDV camcorders which shoot in full 1920x1080 - JVC makes them. The newer AVCHD cameras have full 1920x1080 ability, but you have to deal with the other hassles of working with AVCHD data.
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