Multicam edit in Vegas - Matching analog to digital

[stantheman1976]

Hope this makes sense. I shot a church service with 2 Panasonic MiniDV cams and a Sony Digital8 cam using a Hi8 tape. The Sony was a last minute addition. Of course the 2 MiniDV shots line up with no problem, but the Hi8 is giving me hell, pardon the expression. The tape can capture through firewire and is DV video, but the Hi8 tapes are actually analog so the speed of the recording mechanism fluctuates, unlike digital sources which run at a constant speed.

Is there any way to remedy this? I thought about running analog out of the Digital8 cam through the A/V cable and coupling that into another A/V cable into a MiniDV cam and recording to MiniDV tape. Would that method cause the video to become a constant speed when it is reconverted to another digital source or would it just capture the same exact fluctuations?

[Richard_G]

A Sony Digital8 camcorder isn't analogue, it's DV. Exactly the same as a MiniDV camcorder except for the tape being physically larger. Until I bought my third MiniDV camcorder I used to use 2 MiniDV and one Digital8. All three were transferred over Firewire and all three would sync to each other perfectly. If you have sync problems I would suggest it is that, for some reason, you are dropping frames when transferring from the D8 but not from the others.

Transfer again using WinDV and watch for any dropped frames.

[stantheman1976]

I used WinDV with firewire and no dropped frames. The camera is Digital8 but the tape we used is Hi8 which is analog. It still stores video in the DV codec but the tape itself is analog.

So I was wondering if there's a way to get it from the analog tape into digital format at a constant speed. Transferring by firewire or dubbing to a DV tape by firewire captures the same speed fluctuations as the original. So if I try something like running analog out from the Sony by RCA > 1/8" A/V cable and coupling that into another A/V cable into analog in on a DV camera and dubbing that onto DV would that cause the speed to be constant so I could adjust it easily?

[Richard_G]

No, the tape is neither analogue or digital, it is a strip of plastic with a magnetic coating on it. In fact, Sony Hi-8 MPE tape is absolutely identical to Sony Digital8 tape, just in different packaging.

If the D8 camcorder you used was faulty so the tape speed fluctuates, it might be that frames were dropped in the camcorder. In that case, the recording duration will be shorter than the MiniDV tapes. I suppose the other possibility, although unlikely, is that the D8 cam was a PAL model so shot at 25 fps instead of 29.97 fps. When synchronising the footage from the three camcorders in Vegas, you'll just need to pad out the D8 footage with additional frames to keep it in sync. If Vegas can do it, I assume it can, use the audio track, displayed as a waveform, to sync the three streams. That way, if frames have been dropped while recording, you'll be able to see exactly where it gets out of step.

[stantheman1976]

It's definitely a NTSC model. The camera may have dropped frames, but how common is that on those D8 cams? I don't know how to pad frames and wouldn't know where to start. I may just have to use to other 2 angles and call it a day. It just sucks because the D8 cam caught a really nice angle and there were some great shots.

[Smells_Like_Feet]

I'm confused as to the real problem. Are you saying that after capture the video plays faster and slower intermittantly and as such you cannot not sync it with the other camera footage? If this is the case, it is a very pecurliar problem and I have no solution to recommend.

I have used a Sony Digital8 camera with great success, but I had quite a bit of trouble at first due to audio sync. I found that by setting WinDV to capture the avi stream as type-1 fixed this problem and I have been trouble free since (knock-on-wood).

I'm sorry I don't have any other recommendations for you. Good luck.

- Smells_Like_Feet

[stantheman1976]

It plays the same thing, but when the clip is lined up with the other 2 it starts out in sync and at different parts it either drifts ahead or behind the other tracks. Digital devices are supposed to have a fixed rate of speed so if the timing is different it will be a constant difference. Analog recording heads on audio or video devices may speed or slow a bit and the drift is not constant. Even though it was shot on digital it is acting like an analog signal and not a constant drift.

[guns1inger]

Just split the tracks up and line up the parts that you want to use by lining up the audio tracks. If you only have to adjust small parts you may find there isn't a problem. Trying to work with the whole tape is not going to work if it is as bad as you say. If the angles you need don't have dialogue then it doesn't matter if they don't sync to the frame anyway.

[Cornucopia]

RichardG is right, but didn't finish the thought...

There is little to no difference between the tape sold as Hi8 tape and the tape sold as Digital8 tape, except the cost and the shell. But the shell determines what you can do with it. There are little holes that exist on one that don't exist on the other (not sure which way right now). These "flag" the recorder/camera to allow or not allow Hi8 vs. regular 8mm, thin mil long play vs. std. mil reg. play, and also Analog vs. Digital.

If you used a Hi8 tape, it's shell's holes will have told the camera to record IN ANALOG, no matter what setting you have manually put the camera in. So it's very likely that it ISN'T recorded as DV.
You could test this easily by sticking that tape in another camcorder that only works with Hi8/8mm. If it plays, it's ANALOG.

******

Now, on to the drift issue...
Being analog, there is probably more drift than digital, but there shouldn't be more than a few milliseconds (+ or - 1/2 frame) off at most before resolving itself. Analog 8mm and Hi8 have auto-tracking and are supposed to resolve to a crystal sync in the camera.
One thing that could help (seeing how this looks like analog now), is to use a TBC.

Oh, and BTW, don't use the audio from that camera except to help sync things. Use the audio from one of the other cameras (unless they happen to be particularly crappy!) and stick with that camera's audio the whole time. Much more professional that way.

Scott

[Richard_G]

There is little to no difference between the tape sold as Hi8 tape and the tape sold as Digital8 tape, except the cost and the shell. But the shell determines what you can do with it. There are little holes that exist on one that don't exist on the other (not sure which way right now). These "flag" the recorder/camera to allow or not allow Hi8 vs. regular 8mm, thin mil long play vs. std. mil reg. play, and also Analog vs. Digital.

Close but not quite. I have in front of me a Sony Video8 tape, a Sony Hi8 HMP tape and a Sony Digital8 tape. You are right that there are small holes on the underside that are different on the Video8 tape but they are absolutely identical on the Hi8 and D8 tapes. In fact, looking at them, the shells could have come out of the same mould, there are no differences whatsoever.

So, unless the OP used a Video8 tape that was pretending to be a Hi8 tape, that isn't likely to be the problem. As for the D8 camcorder recording in analogue format, that's a new one on me. So are you saying that if I shoot some footage on my D8 camcorder but using the Video8 tape, I'll end up with something that can be played on an old Hi8 camcorder I have here? This has got to be worth a try when I get a few minutes spare. I don't think so personally. I've just checked the manual for my D8 camcorder and it says nothing about dual mode analogue/digital recording, but it does state that you should use Hi8 or D8 tapes and warns that if using Video8 tapes, you should only try and play back on the same camcorder that recorded them.

Oh, and BTW, don't use the audio from that camera except to help sync things. Use the audio from one of the other cameras (unless they happen to be particularly crappy!) and stick with that camera's audio the whole time. Much more professional that way.

I always take a separate recording of the audio straight from the line out of the sound desk (I shoot theatre productions) which I then mix with the audio from the camcorders. 60% clean audio, mixed with 15%, 15% and 10% from the cams. I can then fade up the cam audio at times when audience noise is required (although I doubt there would be much applause in a church service....).

[stantheman1976]

There is more than a few seconds of drift in places. I don't have another camcorder available to test it for analog. Using that one was a last minute thing. I had already planned to record 2 angles and a couple days before service the pastor offered his Digital8 cam to record a third. If I can get it synced with the other 2 I'll use ll 3 angles and audio from the mixing board.

I'm going to try gunsl1nger's advice and maybe try 5-10 minute segments.

[Cornucopia]

I can't swear by the Dual record possibility, as the only time I deal with Digital8 is when we get a client that need to transfer and one of my co-workers who has a D8 camcorder brings his in. And he says that that's possible.
But I swear there WERE differences in the holes last time I checked...

(Didn't mean to disparage your knowledge, RichardG)

Scott

[Richard_G]

I think you may be confusing playback and recording. A D8 camcorder will play back, and output as DV, analogue Video8, Hi8 as well as digital D8, but I'm fairly sure they only record as digital and not analogue too. There doesn't seem any point really does there?

As I now have three MiniDV cams, the D8 (a Sony TR8000E) gets used as the family cam and I've still got an old Sony Hi8 and a Video8 (which is currently being used as a webcam) too. All Sony, all 100% reliable.