Buy Blu-Ray player now before new DRM layer?

[ebenton]

This has probably been covered already, but I'm too lazy to do all of the necessary research, so...flame me if you must.

I haven't been keeping up on all of the minute details about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but I noticed on CD Freaks that the new copy-protection layer for Blu-Ray was recently approved. This requires that the player's copy-protection be upgradeable. I haven't been able to find out if the existing Blu-Ray players have network connectors or phone-line connectors. If they don't, will this make future movies unplayable at 1080P (or at all?) on these players? Or will the players have to be upgraded via disk, in which case constant burning onto disks of new DRM codes will be necessary, assuming that you own a computer with a disk burner?
Or will the manufacturers make the disks playable on the older machines?
If they make them playable on older machines, would it be advantageous to buy a Blu-Ray player without an internet connection now?

[jman98]

I don't I would use the term "copy protection layer" here as people are liable to think you are implying that a layer on the disc is dedicated to copy protection and that's not right. The new copy protection is supposed to make it almost impossible to copy BluRay discs. This one is going to be very tough to crack. My best guess would be that if you don't upgrade your player's copy protection that the discs won't play at all. This seems to be how both HD-DVD and BluRay want to do things. Will the discs be playable on older machines? Probably not. Since I do not own a BluRay player, I can't tell you for sure how upgrading is done, but my understanding is that it requires an internet connection. Anything that requires consumers to burn their own upgrade discs is doomed to fail as people often botch firmware upgrades, so there's no way BluRay would use that as a mechanism. They'll use something where the consumer doesn't have to do anything but have the machine connected to the internet as anything other than an automated upgrade mechanism will fail because of dumb people who can't follow instructions.

You need to understand that the BluRay group considers consumers to be potential thieves and will always act in a hostile manner towards them. You should always assume the worst with regards to BluRay as it will almost certainly be what happens. Not that HD-DVD is tons better, but they seem to be somewhat less angry towards their customer base than BluRay is. You ARE the enemy according to BluRay.

[jagabo]

The new firmware will be on the new discs.

[ebenton]

I was trying to find out if existing Blu-Ray players have internet conenctions. I would assume that they do, but nothing on Circuit City's web site says anything about the subject for the players they sell. Neither did Crutchfield. I even started an online chat with a Crutchfield "advisor" and asked him. He said he couldn't find anywhere where such a connection was listed.
If, in fact, the current players *DON'T* have phone line or network connectors, then I wonder if buying a current player would cause manufacturers to "bend over backwards" to help the user in the future. More likely, if you buy a player today you will probably have to "bend over forwards" in the future.

[dcsos]

I remember SONY stating that they would pay shipping, but the user couldn't do the upgrade
(users are potential theives, remember?)
Instead, owners of the HD DVD players-they weren't blue ray boxes, but upconverting DVD payers- Hadda ship them to SONY TEXAS for updates

[lordsmurf]

I would not buy a player at all. Upscale DVD.

[ebenton]

The new firmware will be on the new discs.

I know that the new firmware will be on the new disks, but the main "feature" of the new copy protection is the ability to change the "key" for that disk if someone breaks the copy-protection for it. The player can then have it's copy-protection "upgraded" so that copied disks will no longer play. If players do not have an internet connection, I do not see how this is feasible,

[jman98]

The new firmware will be on the new discs.

I know that the new firmware will be on the new disks, but the main "feature" of the new copy protection is the ability to change the "key" for that disk if someone breaks the copy-protection for it. The player can then have it's copy-protection "upgraded" so that copied disks will no longer play. If players do not have an internet connection, I do not see how this is feasible,

Assuming jagabo is right, and I seem to have a vague memory of reading somewhere that this is how firmware upgrades will be done, then all they have to do is make the BluRay players operate so the first thing they do is check the disc for a firmware update and install it. If that's how it works, then you can keep your BluRay player off the internet all you want, but once you pop in a disc with a firmware upgrade, your player just got upgraded even though it's not on the internet.

[ebenton]

Hmmm. So if you never put a new disk into your player, you should be able to keep using copies of all your movies, including ones you just made of your brand-new movies.

This is assuming that you will be able to use any "copy-protection-defeating" copy programs on your Blu-Ray burner on your PC, which probably *will* be connected to the internet.

Sounds like a potential hole in their copy-protection scheme.

[Ai Haibara]

Didn't they have some way of actually disabling players (at least, with AACS), where if you didn't update it, you wouldn't be able to essentially use that player?
Yeah, I know, that most likely meant you wouldn't be able to play newer discs. But it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they all but required a phone-line connection for the players, or the player magically 'stops working' after a while, if it can't check in with the manufacturer or download an update.

[Rich86]

The more i read about blue-ray and hd-dvd - the better my standard dvd upscaling player works for me . . . .

[edDV]

The way I understand HDCP works (separate from actual disc encryption) is nothing is played until the keys for all downstream devices* are verified and the approved key list and blocked keys get distributed through the media (optical or download). If devices fail, the content author can specify whether the media doesn't play at all or plays 720x480 (and/or 960x540) and whether the AC-3 is played as 2 channel stereo.


* downstream devices include the display, the HDMI switch, the AC-3 decoder hardware and if a computer, the display card.

[ebenton]

edDV - I'm sure you are correct. You scenario makes sense if you are talking Blu-Ray burners and/or players connected to your PC. But if you have a standalone Blu-Ray player, with no internet connection, and none of your downstream devices are connected to the internet, and you never insert a new disk into your player...it seems to me that once all of your "downstream" keys are valid, they will always be valid -- as long as you never insert a new disk into your player. If you can make copies of your Blu-Ray disks based upon your one-time-only key validation, then it seems like you could just keep making copies of your new disks forever.
It's probably not that simple, but it seems like it could be...

[edDV]

edDV - I'm sure you are correct. You scenario makes sense if you are talking Blu-Ray burners and/or players connected to your PC. But if you have a standalone Blu-Ray player, with no internet connection, and none of your downstream devices are connected to the internet, and you never insert a new disk into your player...it seems to me that once all of your "downstream" keys are valid, they will always be valid -- as long as you never insert a new disk into your player. If you can make copies of your Blu-Ray disks based upon your one-time-only key validation, then it seems like you could just keep making copies of your new disks forever.
It's probably not that simple, but it seems like it could be...

For what I'm saying it applies to the original store bought disc and the hardware player. An HDCP handshake needs to happen before the disc will play at all. Note that all current discs have HDCP turned off but new discs can have HDCP turned on at publisher option.

This will also apply to OTA, cable and and satellite TV if and when Hollywood gets the votes for the Broadcast Flag. HDCP is already in all the "approved" equipment. It just needs to be turned on. Remember, default is nothing plays until the path is verified.

[ebenton]

Ok. I'm not going to dwell on this any longer.

It looks like there would be no advantage to buying a current Blu-Ray player because even though they may have no internet connection, the copy-protection could potentially be updated every time you inserted a new store-bought disk.
Therefore, I will wait until somebody wins the war (and prices drop) or something better comes along. Thank you all.

[EddyH]

they assume all consumers are potential thieves

yeah... well... it IS largely Sony after all... they've been overdue a good paddlin' on this issue for many many years now. If there's any justice / karma in the world, it'll be the consumer-driven nail in the coffin of yet another of their doomed, over-DRM'd media formats (minidisc/HiMD, magic gate, UMD...)

lot of good it's done them, really. what percentage of the user base was going to be bothered copying MD to MD except when it was their own selfmade material? not exactly the cheapest or easiest to distribute format.
(etc)

oh and rootkits of course. they're just nobs. unfortunately it's looking highly likely my new mini-hifi system will be one of theirs, on the basis of features I want/need vs price I can afford.