Any US DVDr's w/ REAL HD tuner out?

[mzil]

So by law all new dvd recorders sold now in the US (with built-in tuners) must have an ATSC tuner. Of course you can't record a true HD signal to the DVD drive, I get that, but what's odd is that, to the best of knowledge, not a single one will let you view the tuner's 720p or 1080i signal. It is downrez'd to 480 so it can be recorded to the DVD and you can't use the deck as a stand alone HD tuner to feed a monitor. Does anyone here know of one I can also use as a true HD tuner to feed my display 720p/1080i ? Thanks.

[edDV]

You have the basics figured out. Everything is first converted to 480i probably at 4:3 aspect ratio. This causes a problem for 16:9 display because 16:9 source gets letterboxed. In that case your TV would add sidebars as well resulting in borders on all four sides for 16:9 or just side pillars for 4:3.

Advanced models intended for 16:9 progressive display may surface. Pay attention to the reviews as these boxes emerge. What you want is:

1. Wide (16:9) 480i record mode (from HD or SD 16:9 source).
2. Cinema (IVTC) processing to Progressive 480p recording.

The latter is unlikely any time soon.

You should get a separate tuner for the TV (OTA, cable or dbs).

[mzil]

Advanced models intended for 16:9 progressive display may surface. Pay attention to the reviews as these boxes emerge. What you want is:

1. Wide (16:9) 480i record mode (from HD or SD 16:9 source).
2. Cinema (IVTC) processing to Progressive 480p recording.

The latter is unlikely any time soon.

You should get a separate tuner for the TV (OTA, cable or dbs).

So they make it a law that all new models must have an ATSC tuner, yet not a single one can actually record anamorphicly (if that's a word) or let you view the tuner's HD resolution it's capable of, at least while not actually recording? That just makes me sick! I guess I'm a rather lucky guy in that I can make anamorphic DVD recordings right now by feeding the signal first through a JVC D-VHS which acts as a "squeeze box" (sorry, I don't know the proper term) before going into the component in of my Philips DVDR985.

Why should I want inverse telecine in the record mode, isn't in playback just as good?

I don't want a separate HD tuner! I just want the one built-in to my (future) DVD recorder not to be emasculated! Real estate in my equipment rack is dwindling and I need to conserve space.

Thanks for all your help by the way. Obviously my anger is not directed at you but rather at the designers at "Panashitsasony".

[edDV]

Advanced models intended for 16:9 progressive display may surface. Pay attention to the reviews as these boxes emerge. What you want is:

1. Wide (16:9) 480i record mode (from HD or SD 16:9 source).
2. Cinema (IVTC) processing to Progressive 480p recording.

The latter is unlikely any time soon.

You should get a separate tuner for the TV (OTA, cable or dbs).

So they make it a law that all new models must have an ATSC tuner, yet not a single one can actually record anamorphicly (if that's a word) or let you view the tuner's HD resolution it's capable of, at least while not actually recording? That just makes me sick! I guess I'm a rather lucky guy in that I can make anamorphic DVD recordings right now by feeding the signal first through a JVC D-VHS which acts as a "squeeze box" (sorry, I don't know the proper term) before going into the component in of my Philips DVDR985.

The tuner requirement is to tune the ATSC channels and receive the 18 formats, but then display to the target resolution of the device. For a 720p display, all formats are converted to 720p. For a basic 4:3 "digital tv" that means everything gets converted to 640x480 and all 16:9 is displayed as either letterbox or full height with sides cropped.

For standard DVD the target is 704x480 (16:9 or 4:3) or 352x480 (4:3 only). It will be interesting to see how the players handle the inputs. I suppose basic players will convert all input standards to 704x480i just as current DVD recorders do. Any 16:9 gets the option of letterbox or 480i wide flag (horizontal squeeze). Progressive output is then output processed with IVTC or deinterlace.

A fancy box may support 480p recording for 720p or 480p source. 480i 16:9 source could be simply recorded with wide flag to 480i, or for telecine source, inverse telecined to 704x480p/23.976 and recorded 480p. 1080i could be simply downconverted to 480i or inverse telecined to 480p for film source. There are potential complications for the 480p option since only 23.976 fps is allowed for a standard DVD. There would need to be non-standard 480p/29.97 or 59.94 fps options for live source. The processor would need to anticipate and correct cadence errors or mixed interlace source. These DVDs would not be playable on standard DVD players. The answer will probably be to support these modes only with VC-1 or Divx.

Why should I want inverse telecine in the record mode, isn't in playback just as good?

Probably that is what they will do initially following the current progressive DVD player model. That option is to record what comes in, downscale if necessary and convert all progressive to interlace 480i/29.97. In that case, 480p/59.94 and 720p/59.94 would be analyzed for the 3:2 frame repeat indicating film source. If film, telecine would be applied. If not film, 59.94 would be interlaced to 29.97.

The advantage of inverse telecine + progressive 3:2 frame repeat removal during recording is file size efficiency. 480p and 720p are coming in at 59.94 fps. Better to record film source as 23.976 fps to eliminate repeat frames. Likewise 1080i and 480i can be recorded at 23.976 for film segments eliminating repeat fields.

I don't want a separate HD tuner! I just want the one built-in to my (future) DVD recorder not to be emasculated! Real estate in my equipment rack is dwindling and I need to conserve space.

That would be nice but the cheaper generic mass quantity chipsets will be focused on downscale processing to 704x480 for DVD/SD wide digital TV sets or 640x480 for SD 4:3 digital TV sets. These will be sold in the millions as ATSC tuners for analog TV retrofit. The kind of ATSC tuner you want will be more expensive and show up only in lower volume, higher end DVD players or as HDTV external tuners. Expect to pay more.

[mzil]

Oh I'll gladly pay more for an ATSC tuner built in that shows true HD (720p/1080i) res, but it currently isn't even being offered at any price! Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for nearly the past decade, hasn't every single ATSC tuner ever made been capable of producing resolutions higher than 480? This is the first year to change that. Do the designers think the public would balk at the price increase or simply would have no interest in this "frivolous" feature? Considering I can buy a true HD res ATSC tuner in the form of a computer dongle for $150, I don't see why they don't make what I'm asking for. I'd pay an extra $150 (or even more) in a snap! I guess they think I'm an oddity; I like to watch HD broadcasts in HD and do it through the least number of components as possible. Go figure.

[edDV]

Oh I'll gladly pay more for an ATSC tuner built in that shows true HD (720p/1080i) res, but it currently isn't even being offered at any price! Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for nearly the past decade, hasn't every single ATSC tuner ever made been capable of producing resolutions higher than 480? This is the first year to change that. Do the designers think the public would balk at the price increase or simply would have no interest in this "frivolous" feature? Considering I can buy a true HD res ATSC tuner in the form of a computer dongle for $150, I don't see why they don't make what I'm asking for. I'd pay an extra $150 (or even more) in a snap! I guess they think I'm an oddity; I like to watch HD broadcasts in HD and do it through the least number of components as possible. Go figure.

We are talking about a 480i DVD recorder box here. The ATSC digital tuner is replacing the analog tuner for 480i recording. Existing upscale chips will convert 720x480i/29.97 and 720x480p/23.976 DVDs to 480p, 720p or 1080i on the output side. That is what they are selling so avoid buying one.

I understand what you want. It is available as a separte HD capable tuner box that can feed your HDTV. Someone may soon combine this with a 480i DVD recorder but the cost would be higher than $150 and many would return units once they understand it can't record HD.

There is another generation of DVD players on the market now that will play variations of MPeg2_TS, Divx-HD or WMV-HD but not yet a DVD recorder for HD.
https://www.videohelp.com/dvdplayers?DVDname=&Search=Search&dvdportable=&dvdchanger=&dv...Submit2=Search

To do a proper "linkplayer" or "Buffalo" recorder, hardware divx, VC-1 or h.264 encoders will be required. Then these boxes will be set up for recording HD to DVD-5 or DVD-9 as well as play back pre-authored red laser HD discs.

All this will be separate from blue laser HD-DVD or BlyRay DVD recorders which will also be available.

[mzil]

edDV, Thanks for your concise responses. I guess then your answer is "no" you don't know of any nor when they will arrive.

Should anyone else care, I found an illuminating Q. and A. on the http://www.avsforum.com written by one of the actual chip designers. Seems the next generation (2008) will have this problem solved. Hurray! :

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxjoe
Can you share with us some insight into why these 1st gen ATSC dvd recorders do not pass true HD through when not recording?

I am under the assumption that the built-in ATSC tuner is similar to those in HDTVs, so that passing an unmodified HD signal to HDMI out would have been relatively simple to include. Was there a technological reason that this feature would have to be delayed to a 2nd gen product?

Thanks for any insight


For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Since Panasonic has developed an HDMI chip with built-in SD to HD scaling, it's a much easier and less expensive design to use the two SD outputs. One goes to the analog S-Video and composite outputs and the other goes to the HDMI chip.

There's also a processing load and SDRAM bandwidth problem. When recording HD ATSC source, the Domino 3 has to do all of the following:

1) Transport Stream input
2) Transport Stream Demux
3) HD MPEG-2 decode
4) 5.1 AC-3 decode
5) HD to SD rescale
6) SD MPEG-2 encode
7) 2.0 AC-3 encode
8 ) Program Stream Mux
9) Video output
10) Audio output
11) Optical disk I/O

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

Folks that are not using the LSI solution are in even worse shape. Most of them are using a two chip design with a Panasonic MV3 chip (used in last year's ES-15,25,35,45 models) along with a companion chip from Renesas that does Transport Stream input, demux and HD decoding.

Ron

[edDV]

edDV, Thanks for your concise responses. I guess then your answer is "no" you don't know of any nor when they will arrive.

Should anyone else care, I found an illuminating Q. and A. on the http://www.avsforum.com written by one of the actual chip designers. Seems the next generation (2008) will have this problem solved. Hurray! :

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxjoe
Can you share with us some insight into why these 1st gen ATSC dvd recorders do not pass true HD through when not recording?

I am under the assumption that the built-in ATSC tuner is similar to those in HDTVs, so that passing an unmodified HD signal to HDMI out would have been relatively simple to include. Was there a technological reason that this feature would have to be delayed to a 2nd gen product?

Thanks for any insight


For the LSI Domino 3 used in the Panasonic DMR-EZ17,27,37,47 recorders, it's has to do with the number of video output ports. The chip can be configured to have two SD outputs (one analog and one digital) or one HD digital output.

The problem with using one digital HD output, is that you still have to send SD to the S-Video and composite outputs. This would require an external HD to SD scaler chip and video D/A chip.

Since Panasonic has developed an HDMI chip with built-in SD to HD scaling, it's a much easier and less expensive design to use the two SD outputs. One goes to the analog S-Video and composite outputs and the other goes to the HDMI chip.

There's also a processing load and SDRAM bandwidth problem. When recording HD ATSC source, the Domino 3 has to do all of the following:

1) Transport Stream input
2) Transport Stream Demux
3) HD MPEG-2 decode
4) 5.1 AC-3 decode
5) HD to SD rescale
6) SD MPEG-2 encode
7) 2.0 AC-3 encode
8 ) Program Stream Mux
9) Video output
10) Audio output
11) Optical disk I/O

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

Folks that are not using the LSI solution are in even worse shape. Most of them are using a two chip design with a Panasonic MV3 chip (used in last year's ES-15,25,35,45 models) along with a companion chip from Renesas that does Transport Stream input, demux and HD decoding.

Ron

In other words, it would be too expensive with today's chips. They could do it but not at a price you would pay.

It would seem the issues would be the same for a standalone ATSC tuner unless HD output caused the muting of the S-Video and composite SD outputs. Maybe they do. I haven't looked.

Expect all these boxes to get cheaper and better during 2008 in anticipation of the Feb 2009 analog shutdown.

[lordsmurf]

So by law all new dvd recorders sold now in the US (with built-in tuners) must have an ATSC tuner.

No, this is not true.

If the unit has a tuner, it must be ATSC. You'll notice a lot a tuner-less equipment in the future, from televisions to VCRs to DVD recorders.

[yoda313]

You'll notice a lot a tuner-less equipment in the future, from televisions

Wait a minute, wouldn't that just make it into a monitor then???? What point would there be in a tv without a tuner of any type? Then you would just be buying a monitor.....?? Or am I missing the point?

[lordsmurf]

Most folks use it as a monitor anyway. Between a VCR, DVR, DVD recorder, satellite receiver, cable box, etc ... who's using a tuner? Analog cable is really the main use, and then poorer folks in major markets.

A DVD recorder without a tuner would not be a monitor.

[mzil]

n/t deleted post

[mzil]

So by law all new dvd recorders sold now in the US (with built-in tuners) must have an ATSC tuner.

No, this is not true.

If the unit has a tuner, it must be ATSC. You'll notice a lot a tuner-less equipment in the future, from televisions to VCRs to DVD recorders.

Lordsmurf, re-read what you quoted. Notice the part I wrote in parentheses?

edDV, The current Panasonic DMREZ17 has a street price of $170. Even if a dual chip version was exactly double that price, I'd still buy it (although I know most people wouldn't) to have a one box solution. I can wait the year since I primarily archive real HD to D-VHS anyway.

See you again when I return in '08!

Later,

Mzil

[FulciLives]

To help illustrate what LordSmurf is talking about here are two new DVD recorders by Toshiba (USA models):

1.) The D-R400 has a MSRP of $149.99 and it does not have a built-in tuner.
2.) The D-R550 has a MSRP of $229.99 and it does have a built-in tuner.

Toshiba syas the following about the D-R400 model:

One Touch Recording provides a simple and convenient way to make a recording. Simply connect your DVD recorder to your cable or satellite box and then to your monitor/TV and your are set to record with the push of a button.

The D-R400 features the following inputs: S-Video, composite video, RCA analog stereo inputs. Also includes a DV input for digital camcorders.

Toshiba says the following about the D-R550 model:

Built in ATSC/NTSC/QAM digital/analog tuner allows for tuning of analog or digital channels from over the air or cable, including "cable-in-the-clear" digital channels.

SD Bridge Recording lets you easily record programming received from the built-in digital and analog tuners onto DVD in standard resolution.

The D-R550 features the following inputs: S-Video, composite video, RCA analog stereo inputs. Also includes a DV input for digital camcorders. Also features an RF input (since it has a built-in ATSC/NTSC/QAM analog/digital tuner).

Notice of course that the D-R550 is $80.00 more than the D-R400 model yet both seem to be the exact same machine other than the tuner (or lack of one). Well actually the D-R550 mentions HD JPEG while the D-R400 only says JPEG with no mention of HD JPEG but that could be an oversight in marketing. All information gleamed came from the "quick look" PDF files on each. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the D-R400 also has HD JPEG and that this just wasn't mentioned in the "quick look" PDF file.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I seem to recall reading about some other brands also offering DVD recorders without a tuner of any kind ala the Toshiba D-R400 model.

[lordsmurf]

JVC has some new ones.

[edDV]

I gotta tell ya, SD downscaled recording from a 1080i/720p ATSC/QAM input can be pretty fine quality. SD ATSC/QAM source is a huge step up from analog NTSC.

Sure HD recording would be better but for now quality SD is fine.

I have two ways to record locals in HD when needed at the computer: Off the cable box IEEE-1394 output (solid) and directly with the Hauppauge HVR-1600 (getting there).

[gshelley61]

Actually, the new DVD recorder/VCR combos with built-in ATSC/QAM tuners that I have checked out so far (Panasonic, LG and Magnavox) do record 16:9 digital television sources anamorphically as long as their TV display type output is set to 16:9. The resulting widescreen discs do not have the 16:9 flag set, but are recorded anamorphically "squeezed" and could be re-authored later with the widescreen flag if desired.

All three have component video outputs that can be set to interlaced or progressive. The LG has an HDMI output as well, but it upscales to 720p or 1080i. None have the ability to pass through a native 720p or 1080i high definition TV signal yet. If you need that capability, you're better of at this point getting a standalone high definition ATSC/QAM receiver and a separate DVD recorder.

[edDV]

Even though these models may have progressive and upscale options for playback, recording to disc is always 704x480i (704x576i). Progressive output is achieved by deinterlace or inverse telecine.

480i "Wide" recording is a strong plus. Most default to letterbox.

The 704 vs 720 issue needs testing for each model. ATSC and NTSC tuners are 704 by design. If 720 is chosen on output, 8 pixel black side stripes will usually be present. some models might scale 704 to 720. That would lower quality.

[yoda313]

I have a side question here. Are all atsc tuners for dvd recorders finallY STEREO???? That would be a great benefit if they were since my lieton dvd recorder is mono only requiring the use of a stereo vcr or piping the singal from a tivo. Granted I don't use the dvd recorder for recording any more since I got my tivo.

But if digital tuner dvd recorder models were going to drop in price some it might be a nice upgrade before the analog shutdown.

[edDV]

I have a side question here. Are all atsc tuners for dvd recorders finallY STEREO???? That would be a great benefit if they were since my lieton dvd recorder is mono only requiring the use of a stereo vcr or piping the singal from a tivo. Granted I don't use the dvd recorder for recording any more since I got my tivo.

But if digital tuner dvd recorder models were going to drop in price some it might be a nice upgrade before the analog shutdown.

Better than stereo, ATSC is all AC-3. I'm enjoying the AC-3 off my HVR-1600 QAM tuner! Most times there's only 2 channel stereo over AC-3 though. Cable channels are mostly simple MPeg stereo. It will be interesting to see how these ATSC/QAM DVD recorders handle audio. Hopefully they grab the AC-3 intact. The AC-3 audio over some HD channels is top notch.

[yoda313]

AC3??? Damn that's great! Finally something useful.

[edDV]

I'm just starting to look at the AC-3 for test QAM captures.

NBC was just using 128Kb/s and 2 channels for Saturday Night Live.
PBS had 320 Kb/s AC-3 for Sting concert but only two channels.
CBS Cold Case had 320Kb/s 6 channels 3/2.1
ABC Desperate Housewives had 320Kb/s 6 channels 3/2.1

[trhouse]

Both the LG RC797T and Panasonic DMR EZ37VK with ATSC/QAM tuners I have tested produce 720 by 480 captures. The LG uses the LSI DMN8604 chip. From the posts above it would appear the Panasonic uses an LSI chip also but I have not opened that unit yet.

[edDV]

Both the LG RC797T and Panasonic DMR EZ37VK with ATSC/QAM tuners I have tested produce 720 by 480 captures. The LG uses the LSI DMN8604 chip. From the posts above it would appear the Panasonic uses an LSI chip also but I have not opened that unit yet.

Do the 720 captures show the 8 pixel black side edges or do they stretch 704 to 720?

[trhouse]

I posted my results here,

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic279460.html

but I just examined the png files from virtualdubmod. It looks like they both add black bars to the sides but for some reason the left bar is skinnier on the LG where the bars are the same size on the Panasonic.

[Rich86]

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

I have come very close to making the jump to one of the latest Panasonic DVD recorders since I got a HDTV and High Def cable service - but I think I will wait and simply conserve space in my cable supplied dvr for now . . . thanks for the valuable information which let's folks like me make better informed buying decisions!

[edDV]

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

I have come very close to making the jump to one of the latest Panasonic DVD recorders since I got a HDTV and High Def cable service - but I think I will wait and simply conserve space in my cable supplied dvr for now . . . thanks for the valuable information which let's folks like me make better informed buying decisions!

That wasn't my quote but it was very valuable information.

[Rich86]

On Domino 5 (that will be used in next year's models), all of these issues have been taken care of. There will be an internal HD video D/A, internal HDMI, and more SDRAM bandwidth from using a faster DDR2 SDRAM controller.

I have come very close to making the jump to one of the latest Panasonic DVD recorders since I got a HDTV and High Def cable service - but I think I will wait and simply conserve space in my cable supplied dvr for now . . . thanks for the valuable information which let's folks like me make better informed buying decisions!

That wasn't my quote but it was very valuable information.

Yes - I realize you were sharing something you picked up elsewhere - but that is how we learn from each other and we appreciate you posting it.