HD system requirements

[kippard]

What's a rundown of minimum system requirements to edit HD? Thank you!

[edDV]

What's a rundown of minimum system requirements to edit HD? Thank you!

Define "Edit"

Cut
Transitions/Filters
Resize to 480 or 576
Encode to MPeg2, VC-1, H.264, Divx, etc.

I've done most of this on a P4 3GHz.

In practical terms, I'd say a Core2Duo with AVIVO or "Pure Video" display card is what you will want.

[kippard]

Capture, edit, export - what about drive speed and RAM? Import and export via 1394? Can you elaborate on those practical terms? Can I get by with a GeForce FX 5200? Thank you!

[edDV]

Capture, edit, export - what about drive speed and RAM? Import and export via 1394? Can you elaborate on those practical terms? Can I get by with a GeForce FX 5200? Thank you!

For HDV or MPeg2 program streams the hard drive speed isn't important. About the same as DV format. For uncompressed HD a two to four drive RAID would be needed.

Memory 512MB or greater.

I've had no problem with a basic Core2 duo machine except for full 1080i 20-25 Mb/s MPeg2 program stream playback. It just has an ATI 9550 (Theater 200) display card.

I have a P4 2.8GHz with a FX5200 and it struggles with 1080i playback about the same. VLC in discard or "mean" mode can fake a playback. HDV and 720p seem to play OK.

[kippard]

Thank you! Can you tell me a little more about the minimum RAID requirements? Is it easy and affordable to upgrade my desktop PC? Thanks again!

[edDV]

Thank you! Can you tell me a little more about the minimum RAID requirements? Is it easy and affordable to upgrade my desktop PC? Thanks again!

That depends what you want to edit. Full uncompressed HD editing needs a workstation class PC and external RAID video servers. We are talking many thousands. Look at the hardware recommendations for the software you want to use.

Most home users are working with HDV or AVCHD camcorder formats or MPeg2_TS/TP from broadcast streams. These are all compressed and don't need RAID. For serious editing you use a "digital intermediate" format like Cineform to keep data rates manageable for a single HDD per stream. Fully uncompressed editing is for the serious pro.

[pijetro]

Yeah kipppard, just to wrap up edDV's statement, and to save you lots of time and headache...

Consumer HDV (not to be confused with HD) is affordable, managable, and doesn't require expensive raid setup..But to do any editing with HDV, as you would with DV, (I'll assume for now you're using Premiere Pro), you'll need an intermediary codec by Cineform, via either ApsectHD or ProspectHD...
Try their trial period..

As far as professional HD is concerned you can start perusing over at HD for indies, and get your head totally immersed into expensive, proprietary equipment...Let this link get you started on what edDV was mentioning...

Good luck!!!

[pijetro]

Oh yeah, and just to tie in all this information with some pretty pictures, check out the price range for some of the intro, intermediate, and expensive systems...

[kippard]

Oh yeah, and just to tie in all this information with some pretty pictures, check out the price range for some of the intro, intermediate, and expensive systems...

Nice. Thanks!

[edDV]

Unless you can afford to rent an $80k+ camera*, there isn't a need to work uncompressed. The high end of the low end is in digital intermediates be they fractals (Cineform) or advanced MJPEG (BlackMagic).

To understand the advantage of these techniques, first master normal HDV editing to understand the bottle necks.

*or wait to see if RED is real at ~$20k.

[kippard]

As far as professional HD is concerned you can start perusing over at HD for indies, and get your head totally immersed into expensive, proprietary equipment...Let this link get you started on what edDV was mentioning...

Good luck!!!

Thanks for the info - great links!

[edDV]

If you are serious about moving above HDV, ask more. There is much going on between the Sony Z1 ($3500) and the Panasonic Variacam ($70,000).

[kippard]

The high end of the low end is in digital intermediates be they fractals (Cineform) or advanced MJPEG (BlackMagic).

These are HDV suite compatible technologies? Appreciate hearing more. Thank you!

[edDV]

The high end of the low end is in digital intermediates be they fractals (Cineform) or advanced MJPEG (BlackMagic).

These are HDV suite compatible technologies? Appreciate hearing more. Thank you!

Yes they are. Straight HDV suffers all the slugishness of 15 GOP MPeg2. Cineform creates an analogy to uncompressed using a fractal codec that keeps bit rates within reason. You can search, scan and scrub Cineform as if it were uncompressed. It also suffers much less generation loss than MPeg2. See the Cineform tutorials.

[kippard]

See the Cineform tutorials.

Where are they?

If you wanted the best video for a transfer to film would it be 1080p?

Again thanks!

[edDV]

See the Cineform tutorials.

Where are they?

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&chann...=Google+Search

If you wanted the best video for a transfer to film would it be 1080p?

Again thanks!

What are you trying to do?

Best? Some used for digital acquisition to film
http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?imgid=426&id=372&cat=286
http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?imgid=124&id=100&cat=36
http://www.chatercamera.com/sonyf900_cinealta.htm
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/cameras/viper/
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&store...odel=AJ-HDC27H

Full Digital Cinema is done at 4Kx2K or 4Kx4K
The camera's above take portions of the image or are upscaled for film transfer.

Movie acquisition is done to HDCAM-SR or DVCProHD Varicam formats or to hard disk arrays.

[kippard]

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=Cineform+&btnG=Goo gle+Search

What are you trying to do?

Best? Some used for digital acquisition to film
http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?imgid=426&id=372&cat=286

I was looking for Cineform tutorials on videohelp. Doh.

I want to shoot a zero-budget feature. I wrote it. I want it to look as good it can on a dime budget.

HDMAX™ 35MM Video, very sweet.

Thanks!

[edDV]

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=Cineform+&btnG=Goo gle+Search

What are you trying to do?

Best? Some used for digital acquisition to film
http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?imgid=426&id=372&cat=286

I was looking for Cineform tutorials on videohelp. Doh.

I want to shoot a zero-budget feature. I wrote it. I want it to look as good it can on a dime budget.

HDMAX™ 35MM Video, very sweet.

Thanks!

Got a camcorder yet?
Entry point for 24p is the Canon HV20 at about $1000 over your zero budget. You could buy it and sell it when done.

[kippard]

Got a camcorder yet?
Entry point for 24p is the Canon HV20 at about $1000 over your zero budget. You could buy it and sell it when done.

The budget isn't actually zero - only nearly. I was hoping to get a pro to shoot it - I'd like to go HD, but haven't found anyone affordable yet. Do you think HDV and Cineform can provide good quality? (Cineform is only used during the edit, the final film would be exported to HDV MPeg2, is that correct?) Is the 24p some sort of pulldown or actual 24p or both depending? Thanks!

[edDV]

Got a camcorder yet?
Entry point for 24p is the Canon HV20 at about $1000 over your zero budget. You could buy it and sell it when done.

The budget isn't actually zero - only nearly. I was hoping to get a pro to shoot it - I'd like to go HD, but haven't found anyone affordable yet. Do you think HDV and Cineform can provide good quality? (Cineform is only used during the edit, the final film would be exported to HDV MPeg2, is that correct?) Is the 24p some sort of pulldown or actual 24p or both depending? Thanks!

I think you said film transfer is your goal. Movie projectors in theaters?

If so 24p video yields best result although expensive processing can put 480i/1080i over to 24p film. So you either pay for 24p production up front, or you pay the film transfer house later.

Cineform helps edit process productivity and may prove a godsend for film transfer. One of the big advantages of fractal processing is upsampling quality.

Most contemporary "film" theaters (even those at Sundance) also have video projectors or these can be rented. Are you certain you need chemical film? You will be astonished how much a distribution print costs. Also how badly the distribution print is treated in the field.

[kippard]

.. either pay for 24p production up front, or you pay the film transfer house later.

Cineform helps edit process productivity and may prove a godsend for film transfer. One of the big advantages of fractal processing is upsampling quality.

Most contemporary "film" theaters (even those at Sundance) also have video projectors or these can be rented. Are you certain you need chemical film? You will be astonished how much a distribution print costs. Also how badly the distribution print is treated in the field.

Please elaborate on the upsampling quality advantage. What do you think of HDV 1080i converted to 24p, is it a good product? What software solutions do you like, if any (even if I don't ever get a distribution print and just want the 24p filmic effect)? I am not certain of where I will go will go with this project. I want to prepare as best I can for festival or distribution possibilities. Many thanks edDV!

[edDV]

.. either pay for 24p production up front, or you pay the film transfer house later.

Cineform helps edit process productivity and may prove a godsend for film transfer. One of the big advantages of fractal processing is upsampling quality.

Most contemporary "film" theaters (even those at Sundance) also have video projectors or these can be rented. Are you certain you need chemical film? You will be astonished how much a distribution print costs. Also how badly the distribution print is treated in the field.

Please elaborate on the upsampling quality advantage. What do you think of HDV 1080i converted to 24p, is it a good product? What software solutions do you like, if any (even if I don't ever get a distribution print and just want the 24p filmic effect)? I am not certain of where I will go will go with this project. I want to prepare as best I can for festival or distribution possibilities. Many thanks edDV!

I think you have the basics to go visit the many indie film websites and blogs. They have been discussing these issues for the last three years for HDV and before that for DV format. You will also find groups devoted to the Panasonic HVX-200 (DVCProHD) and Sony IMX/XDCAM formats.

All TV and film production requires basic marketing skill (the Producer's job). Know your customer and make a movie for that customer. The Directors job is to interpret the script to the film image.

[kippard]

I think you have the basics to go visit the many indie film websites and blogs. They have been discussing these issues for the last three years for HDV and before that for DV format. You will also find groups devoted to the Panasonic HVX-200 (DVCProHD) and Sony IMX/XDCAM formats.

All TV and film production requires basic marketing skill (the Producer's job). Know your customer and make a movie for that customer. The Directors job is to interpret the script to the film image.

I'm wearing many hats on this. I don't want to be. Do you have any favorite indie sites and blogs? Cheers.

[edDV]

Look at the links at the bottom of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_film

also,
http://www.indiefilmblog.com/archive10.htm
http://dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=20bb2975b23028e14b424c2caf857c4f&f=76
http://forums.digitalmedianet.com/cgi-bin/wwuglistcategory.cgi
http://www.adobe.com/support/products/premiere.html
http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@@.1de9c1bf
http://www.wrigleyvideo.com/forum/
http://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_view_posts.cgi?forumid=3

[Rudyard]

I dont want to hijack this thread but could someone please explain why you would need a raid setup for HD uncompressed editing?

I thought RAID was some sort of backup, as in HDD1 is used and copied to HDD 2 or 3 so if 1 dies the same info is on the other HDDs.

I must be mistaken somewhere.

[edDV]

I dont want to hijack this thread but could someone please explain why you would need a raid setup for HD uncompressed editing?

I thought RAID was some sort of backup, as in HDD1 is used and copied to HDD 2 or 3 so if 1 dies the same info is on the other HDDs.

I must be mistaken somewhere.

RAID is a technique to either run drives where files are dynamically copied to other drives for backup purposes or run in parallel for greater speed.

The latter, known as striping allows two drives to double the average speed of each. Drives transfer data faster from the inner vs outer tracks so in the case of a two drive RAID zero, one drive starts at the inner track while the other starts at the outer track and when combined create a constant transfer speed that is twice that of the average of either single drive. Stiping means the drives alternate track reads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

Typical sustained drive speeds are:

USB2 extermal drive 10-30MB/s
Internal EIDE/SATA drive 30-60Mb/s
Raptor 10k-15kRPM drives 80-150MB/s
SCSI a bit faster.

Uncompressed 10bit SD video (SMPTE 259M) aka SDI

SMPTE: 259M-C 34MB/s (270Mb/s), 4:2:2 Component 720x480/576 + 8 audio
SMPTE: 259M-D 45MB/s (360Mb/s), 4:2:2 Component 853x480 or 1024x576 square pixel 16:9 + 8 audio

Uncompressed 10bit HD 1920x1080i (SMPTE 292M) aka HD-SDI = 186MB/s (1485 Mb/s)
Uncompressed >10bit 4:4:4 HD 1920x1080p (SMPTE 424M) = 372MB/s (2970 Mb/s)

To make matters more challenging, real time pro editing requires two to four or more synchronized streams (372-744MB/s).


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