Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[MozartMan]

Microsoft to drop Xbox360 HD DVD price

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Microsoft-to-drop-Xbox360-HD-DVD-price.html

May be this will help.............

Help what? HD-DVD to survive? It won't.

[gotnotime]

Microsoft to drop Xbox360 HD DVD price

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Microsoft-to-drop-Xbox360-HD-DVD-price.html

May be this will help.............

Help what? HD-DVD to survive? It won't.

Key word for me is Microsoft. For that reason alone I will never buy HD DVD.

[MozartMan]

Key word for me is Microsoft. For that reason alone I will never buy HD DVD.

And the real reason Microsoft supports HD-DVD is to hurt Blu-ray, and then let both formats die (if Blu-ray is not adopted by masses), so everything can shift to downloadable content with M$ DRM.

[videopoo]

Thats funny...the reason I won't buy Blu Ray is because of Sony...there's such balance in nature

The future will be downloadable content...I don't think there any argument againts that. Does it really matter who wants to control whatever....would it make you feel better if I controlled who watches what? I only want HD content on disc. Sony is locking out MOST content with its expensive and proprietary authoring tools.

If your happy just watching major motion picture studio films then, by all means, Blu Ray is wonderful. What about all the other HD content out there? How would they be able to afford to get their content to disc so we can enjoy it? You can author an HD DVD title today with nothing but Notepad if you'd like.

[gotnotime]

Error Code 601 (from the Andromeda Strain)

That's what will see on our computer screens when a 100 million people try to download a 20GB HD movie. Down-loadable content may be part of the future, but people will always want to have a personal collection of movies. Microsoft will make sure that you can't copy a downloaded movie that you "own" to anything but a hard drive. I guess you could "archive" each of your hard drives as they fill up.

I still think that if you took a poll, most people would hate Microsoft much more then Sony

[rhegedus]

Sony is locking out MOST content with its expensive and proprietary authoring tools.

Such as?

$50 buys you Ulead DVD Movie factory with HD authoring.

What about all the other HD content out there? How would they be able to afford to get their content to disc so we can enjoy it?

It's not lack of choice that's stopping other content from HD release, it's lack of customer interest. If there was genuine interest then it could be released as WMV HD or DivXHD.

You can author an HD DVD title today with nothing but Notepad if you'd like.

How would you burn it without a HD burner?

[videopoo]

Such as?

$50 buys you Ulead DVD Movie factory with HD authoring.

I thought we were talking about BD-J authoring?...Advanced interactivity stuff. The tools used to develop these titles run several hundred thousand dollars. I wasn't talking about consumer tools. To produce a Blu Ray BD-J title your looking at around $60,000-$100,000 per disc

It's not lack of choice that's stopping other content from HD release, it's lack of customer interest. If there was genuine interest then it could be released as WMV HD or DivXHD.

I agree...there is little interest today but that will change soon enough. I doubt that HD content produced today will continue to be watched SD forever. I also believe the lack of interest is due to the lack of titles on store shelves. Documentaries, action sports films, independent films have no other outlet other than HD DVD at the moment. The folks who produce these titles are just starting with new and afforable HD DVD authoring tools and development. We don't have the luxury to hire the brightest code writers & millions of dollars in our bank accounts. You will soon start to see more of these titles only because Sony has locked out everyone but the studios who can afford it. And lets not mention the fact Sony dictates what will be replicated...if they don't like your film..you don't get it replicated. The porn industry was forced by Sony to adobt HD DVD...not because they thought it was better but because of price and Sony's control of replication. That's reason enough not to support Blu Ray...or least fom my point of view.

How would you burn it without a HD burner?

You don't...you need to get it replicated. But testing is currently being done on DVD-R. I wasn't talking about authoring wedding videos.

[SatStorm]

@rhegedus: You can burn authored HD DVDs on DVD-Rs today. Just add empty VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders for compatibility.
Of course those are not "true" HD DVDs, but using H264 compression you have around 1 and a half hours per disc, with OK HD quality.

I use this cheap trick to burn around 7 hours per DVD, with 720x576 x264 material. HDDVD support all the DVD video modes.

Just imagine: Around 200 music videos on one DVD-R with a near DVD quality. Not bad...

[lordsmurf]

Nilf,

The world in general consists of the flocks of people who shop at Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and Amazon.com.

The DVD Forum has not controlled write speeds in forever, not since 4x days. The speeds for burning are largely the responsibility of drive makers and disc manufacturers (and to some degree, always has been). DVD Forum has not approved/tested media in forever now that I'm aware of. And again with the revisionist history, as burn speeds were never that far apart, as they all moved from 2sx to 4x to 8x to 16x. Competition had nothing to do with burn speeds, and everything to do with the perfection of burning technology as a whole. The Alliance and the Forum are not like the MPAA, they're more like the defunct League of Nations. So some of your rant is left field. The DVD-Video spec is an asset. Would you rather have it like a computer, where nothing is necessarily compatible and quality ranges so badly? And some people like fullscreen, so let them.

I think you're a videophile in a bubble. That's fine, but yours views are askew to the rest of us.

[rhegedus]

Such as?

$50 buys you Ulead DVD Movie factory with HD authoring.

I thought we were talking about BD-J authoring?...Advanced interactivity stuff. The tools used to develop these titles run several hundred thousand dollars. I wasn't talking about consumer tools. To produce a Blu Ray BD-J title your looking at around $60,000-$100,000 per disc

I'm not aware of any BD-J content from mainstream studios either so what is being missed out on?

It's not lack of choice that's stopping other content from HD release, it's lack of customer interest. If there was genuine interest then it could be released as WMV HD or DivXHD.

I agree...there is little interest today but that will change soon enough. I doubt that HD content produced today will continue to be watched SD forever. I also believe the lack of interest is due to the lack of titles on store shelves. Documentaries, action sports films, independent films have no other outlet other than HD DVD at the moment. The folks who produce these titles are just starting with new and afforable HD DVD authoring tools and development. We don't have the luxury to hire the brightest code writers & millions of dollars in our bank accounts. You will soon start to see more of these titles only because Sony has locked out everyone but the studios who can afford it. And lets not mention the fact Sony dictates what will be replicated...if they don't like your film..you don't get it replicated. The porn industry was forced by Sony to adobt HD DVD...not because they thought it was better but because of price and Sony's control of replication. That's reason enough not to support Blu Ray...or least fom my point of view.

So what's stopping these guys going with HD-DVD? I'm not seeing many independent titles released via HD.

How would you burn it without a HD burner?

You don't...you need to get it replicated. But testing is currently being done on DVD-R. I wasn't talking about authoring wedding videos.

I appreciate that, but how many current set-tops support HD mpeg, AVC etc?

Zilch...

[rhegedus]

@rhegedus: You can burn authored HD DVDs on DVD-Rs today. Just add empty VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders for compatibility.
Of course those are not "true" HD DVDs, but using H264 compression you have around 1 and a half hours per disc, with OK HD quality.

I use this cheap trick to burn around 7 hours per DVD, with 720x576 x264 material. HDDVD support all the DVD video modes.

Just imagine: Around 200 music videos on one DVD-R with a near DVD quality. Not bad...

So you can author content above current 720x576/720x480 specs on DVD and ensure compatibility on all current set-tops?

[videopoo]

I'm not aware of any BD-J content from mainstream studios either so what is being missed out on?

Every studio Blu Ray title on shelves is BD-J.

So what's stopping these guys going with HD-DVD? I'm not seeing many independent titles released via HD

Budget and knowledge constraints. So many issues involved in coding documents for HD DVD. The Studios have a good year or 2 headstart on the independent developer. Also some affordable tools are just now getting out of thier beta phases. There are several independent HD DVD titles - especially in Europe

I appreciate that, but how many current set-tops support HD mpeg, AVC etc

Supporting MPEG2, AVC and VC-1 are mandatory in all HD DVD & Blu Ray players.

[rhegedus]

I'm not aware of any BD-J content from mainstream studios either so what is being missed out on?

Every studio Blu Ray title on shelves is BD-J.

No it is not : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J#BD-J_Enhanced_Movie_Titles

A dozen at most. More than I thought, but way less than you believe.

Note: BD-J authoring capability is available for a $99 subscription: DoStudio MX™ Public Beta

So what's stopping these guys going with HD-DVD? I'm not seeing many independent titles released via HD

Budget and knowledge constraints. So many issues involved in coding documents for HD DVD. The Studios have a good year or 2 headstart on the independent developer. Also some affordable tools are just now getting out of thier beta phases. There are several independent HD DVD titles - especially in Europe.

And how is this Sony's fault if they have nothing to do with HD-DVD?

I appreciate that, but how many current set-tops support HD mpeg, AVC etc

Supporting MPEG2, AVC and VC-1 are mandatory in all HD DVD & Blu Ray players.

Are you saying that these discs are being authored as HD for use in DVD-R for play in HD players? If you're getting 3 hours (main movie plus extras) on a 30Gb HD disk then a 8.5Gb DL will get you less than an hour - what is the point?

[videopoo]

No it is not : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J#BD-J_Enhanced_Movie_Titles

A dozen at most. More than I thought, but way less than you believe.

Note: BD-J authoring capability is available for a $99 subscription: DoStudio MX™ Public Beta

That link says "incomplete" and wiki is really starting to lose alot of credibilty anyway...especially in that BD-J link...If it is correct ...WELL...ANOTHER strike angaint BLu Ray. All those features are done easily in HDi.

The DoStudio MX beta is a good thing! It also is not even in beta yet....I know because I use the HD DVD version everyday and am still waiting for the release of the Blu Ray beta.

And how is this Sony's fault if they have nothing to do with HD-DVD?

Nothing....It's not Sony's fault at all....(remember, I was answering your original question) below:

"So what's stopping these guys going with HD-DVD? I'm not seeing many independent titles released via HD"


But HDi is available to anyone from microsoft....I guess Sony likes keeping secrets. The studios have a big jump on the independent HDi developer. My original point was that I was forced to develop HD DVD titles because Sony decided to keep the tools and knowledge to themselves at a heavy price. Although, from a producer point of view, HD DVD is just an extension of the old DVD-Video spec....and can be easily transitioned.

So sad no one worked out issues early HDi on blu Ray discs would be a great thing for sure. The DVD-Video spec is well entrenched, developers can easily transition to it and replicators will not have to buy new equipment. So you can see why someone like myself who makes a living authoring movies on disc why HD DVD would be more appealing.

Are you saying that these discs are being authored as HD for use in DVD-R for play in HD players? If you're getting 3 hours (main movie plus extras) on a 30Gb HD disk then a 8.5Gb DL will get you less than an hour - what is the point?

DVD-R is a perfect testing medium. It's only used to test functionality anyway...QC of the stream itself is done before hand...and its cheap. Final testing is done after replication before it can be released. Even when HD DVD writers become available, DVD-R will still be the testing medium of choice.

[rhegedus]

That link says "incomplete" and wiki is really starting to lose alot of credibilty anyway...especially in that BD-J link...If it is correct ...WELL...ANOTHER strike angaint BLu Ray. All those features are done easily in HDi.

And is there a complete liset of HD-DVD with java support?

The DoStudio MX beta is a good thing! It also is not even in beta yet....I know because I use the HD DVD version everyday and am still waiting for the release of the Blu Ray beta.

Which goes back to the original point:

Sony is locking out MOST content with its expensive and proprietary authoring tools.

That is, if the tools are there for use with HD, what is stopping independents from using HD?

Nothing. You mentioned budget and knowledge constrains before, but that is universal, not specific to one format.

And how is this Sony's fault if they have nothing to do with HD-DVD?

Nothing....It's not Sony's fault at all....(remember, I was answering your original question) below:

"So what's stopping these guys going with HD-DVD? I'm not seeing many independent titles released via HD"

Which was in relation to 'these guys' i.e. independents being 'locked out' by Sony and it's proprietary tools.


But we're going in circles here... truth is, the independent sector isn't rushing to adopt HD with its easily available java features.

DVD-R is a perfect testing medium. It's only used to test functionality anyway...QC of the stream itself is done before hand...and its cheap. Final testing is done after replication before it can be released. Even when HD DVD writers become available, DVD-R will still be the testing medium of choice.

That's become an embarrasingly long wait, hasn't it?

The first set-top HD-DVD player was on sale in March 2006. Toshiba unveiled its SD-H903A HD DVD burner in January 2007, and has shipped exactly zero to date. Complete vapourware!

Keep those DVD-R handy, you'll be using them for some time to come

[videopoo]

And is there a complete liset of HD-DVD with java support?

HD DVD code isn't written in Java

That is, if the tools are there for use with HD, what is stopping independents from using HD?

Nothing. You mentioned budget and knowledge constrains before, but that is universal, not specific to one format.

Hand Slapping Forehead!!

You asked me why you see few HD DVD titles from the independent sector...right? My answer is that affordable tools are just now (like this week) becoming available. I was sent the users manual for Do Studio MX on Tuesday in fact. Before this week....Advanced HD DVD tools cost 10s of thousands of dollars. BD-J authoring tools costing 3 times that much.

My FINAL point is that before this week, me and my clients could not afford to author a advanced HD DVD title. I've written several HD DVD documents but without a muxer, I had to pay alot to get a title muxed. Now that we have affordable muxing engines, we in the independent sector, can move ahead more efficiently and affordably.

I'm happy authoring HD DVD, I'm happy authoring BD-J titles...whatever the client wants. I'm simply saying HD DVD allows folks like me to provide more independent content at a much lower cost. if one of my clients really wants a BD-J title ...well it looks like I'll be busy for a good quarter/half of the year and they'll be paying alot. Thats what I mean by being "lock out" by Sony.

That's become an embarrasingly long wait, hasn't it?

The first set-top HD-DVD player was on sale in March 2006. Toshiba unveiled its SD-H903A HD DVD burner in January 2007, and has shipped exactly zero to date. Complete vapourware!

It sure has!....Totally ridiculous! I couldn't tell you what the answer with that one is. Doesn't really effect me to much. I don't plan on archiving anything to disc whether it be Blu Ray or HD DVD anyway.

Keep those DVD-R handy, you'll be using them for some time to come

Absolutely....a good reliable testing medium

EDIT:

But we're going in circles here... truth is, the independent sector isn't rushing to adopt HD with its easily available java features

HD DVD has nothing to do with Java.

[rhegedus]

OK, the 'java' equivalent for HD.

Isn't HDi Interactive Format based on ECMAScript a.k.a. Javascript?

[rhegedus]

Hand Slapping Forehead!!

You asked me why you see few HD DVD titles from the independent sector...right? My answer is that affordable tools are just now (like this week) becoming available. I was sent the users manual for Do Studio MX on Tuesday in fact. Before this week....Advanced HD DVD tools cost 10s of thousands of dollars. BD-J authoring tools costing 3 times that much.

But hold on, you blamed Sony for locking out independents. Who do you blame for Advanced HD DVD tools costing 10s of thousands or Do Studio MX not being available until this week?

[Nilfennasion]

Smurf,

I have grown used to living with a totally different viewpoint to the rest of the world. Like some twenty million people in said world, I was born that way, and not given a choice in the matter. Concordantly, a lot of people whom this could be said of have changed the world, and for the better. Microsoft employs them by the thousands. Sony has at least several hundred on their payroll, as do Toshiba, Matsushita, NEC, LG Electronics, et cetera and so on. Hell, the film studios even pay the most stand-out ones to make their product.

But the thing is, I do not just speak for myself in matters like these. I speak for a lot of people who would be so happy to see the end of aliasing they are getting the champers ready for the day when 1080P becomes widespread. Even 720P would be a happy stopping point as far as I am concerned so long as lines do not flicker like a bad LED whenever the camera moves. But that is aside from the central issue.

The real mistake that both formats have made is that they have not allowed enough time for consumer dissatisfaction with SD-DVD to grow. Titles like The Phantom Menace alias so badly and constantly that my eyes water when I watch some scenes, but such mistakes in authoring are the exception rather than the rule. I think the only other one that has disappointed me so bad that I wanted to put a bullet in the author's head would be Lord Of War, where several scenes turn into a macro-block-fest, but that is symptomatic of what I have been trying to think of how to say for two paragraphs now.

SD-DVD was a big hit because, to be quite honest, VHS' time had passed years ago. Even brand new, VHS tapes look terrible. Their inability to allow any aspect ratio other than 1.33:1 with decent resolution only makes it worse for people who want to see films. By the time DVD-Video was standardised and brought to market, it was not just cinemaphiles crying out for a new format that looked the same on the thousandth play as it did on the first. Consumer acceptance of CD had caused dissatisfaction with analogue video to slowly accelerate to boiling point.

Thing is, while I am somewhat dissatisfied with certain things on DVD-Video, DVD-Video has only been with us for about a decade or so. That is simply not enough time to get customers sufficiently sick of a medium to phase it out in favour of another. It also creates a foul taste in the consumer's mouth, causing them to ask how long it will be before they have to update yet again, although the fault in that case is more with the consumer being unaware that it has taken around half a century for 1080P TVs to become market reality. In short, both Toshiba and Sony have expected to be able to say "here it is, buy it", and found that this is insufficient for a total paradigm shift. SD-DVD was cleverly marketed with a long-term view. About the only reason Blu-Ray still has a chance to be profitable is, as I have said, studios and retailers are lining up behind it.

I also remember when televisions with Composite inputs and UHF capability were new. Being told to ask if it is UHF-capable, and figuring out what those little yellow plugholes were for, had a lot of "average" consumers claiming this stuff will never catch on. Now, try buying a DVD player that supports RF output, or a television that includes less than one Composite input (along with a veritable menu of better options).

Progress to HD is a matter of when, not if. Even if Blu-Ray and HD-DVD fail, the growing number of televisions available that will display a 1080P signal will have the consumer asking where they can get material to play on it.

[SatStorm]

@rhegedus: from what I know, yes: There are not so many HD DVD standalones, but the few ones and even the latest ones, if you add manually a VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folder and burn on DVD-R, they play perfectly HD material.

[rhegedus]

Thanks

[SingSing]

I think we are still using broadcast TV as a benchmark. When we all watch NTSC (or PAL). We know VHS video quality is less than broadcast TV. So DVD started to produce clear and sharp at 480i. Most of us are happy to switch and happy.

Cable and Sat and OTA are started to broadcast video in HDTV. After a while, we will want to get even or better than the broadcast we watch everyday.

That will be the time for the format war to play out, and our pockets to open up.

The rental business decision today won't really make any difference.

[gadgetguy]

I think we are still using broadcast TV as a benchmark. When we all watch NTSC (or PAL). We know VHS video quality is less than broadcast TV. So DVD started to produce clear and sharp at 480i. Most of us are happy to switch and happy.

Cable and Sat and OTA are started to broadcast video in HDTV. After a while, we will want to get even or better than the broadcast we watch everyday.

That will be the time for the format war to play out, and our pockets to open up.

The rental business decision today won't really make any difference.

Well said.

[lordsmurf]

Until:
(1) framerates increase,
(2) higher compression codecs allow at least 4-5 hours or more to be put on a single disc in highest quality seen to date,
(3) there is ability to freely record for later or self-create new content with ease,
(4) and include filter provisions to make older content look just as good as it did 10-20 years ago on the tech of the time,

.... then there is no upgrade to be had.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD fail on all counts. They are DVD v2.0 (to use the crappy cliche), and nothing more. They too use broadcast television as a quality standard. No thanks!

If you want me to upgrade, give me a damned upgraded product! I don't want an old product put on steroids and held up by crutches. "Lipstick on a pig" comes to mind, thinking about these products.

This is the same reasoning that Laserdisc and S-VHS/Super Beta died.

[MozartMan]

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD fail on all counts. They are DVD v2.0 (to use the crappy cliche), and nothing more. They too use broadcast television as a quality standard. No thanks!

smurf,

You are completely wrong.

HDTV ATSC - 19Mbs maximum.

HD-DVD - 30Mbs maximum

Blu-ray - 40mbs muximum

[Lucifers_Ghost]

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD fail on all counts. They are DVD v2.0 (to use the crappy cliche), and nothing more. They too use broadcast television as a quality standard. No thanks!

smurf,

You are completely wrong.

HDTV ATSC - 19Mbs maximum.

HD-DVD - 30Mbs maximum

Blu-ray - 40mbs muximum

I want to preface with the fact that I am neither for or against the HDDVD vs BRay equation. Until the price drops in droves, I simply cant justify switching to either format.

However, I have to agree with LordSmurf on this. HDDVD and BRay ARE just amped versions of a DVD +/- R. Dont get me wrong, the prospect of being able to put 40gb on one disk is pretty neat. But its no different than 5 years ago saying "wow, 4.7gb on a disk? Sweet nectar" or 10 years ago saying the same thing about a cd and 750meg. Truth is .. all of these "new" formats are only "upgraded" versions of what we already have.

[gshelley61]

Well, I'm also format neutral having both HD DVD and Blu-Ray players in my setup. Both formats are a large improvement over standard DVD-Video which at its best is 720x480 (in NTSC land) at about 9Mbs MPEG2 with perhaps a good sounding DTS soundtrack. The Superbit "Fifth Element" DVD comes to mind as an example of how good an SD DVD can look and sound.

However, these HD DVD and Blu-Ray high definition discs simply eclipse SD DVD performance in every way. 1920x1080 resolution frames at 30Mbs or 40Mbs max using MPEG2, MPEG4 or VC-1 along with uncompressed multichannel PCM, TrueHD and other high resolution audio soundtracks... there is simply no comparison when viewed on large HD capable displays (especially 1920x1080 native screens) and listened to on a decent home theater surround system.

Whether they will both (or either one of them) be commercially successful is hard to say at this point. It's still pretty early in the products' life cycles, and it will depend on how many folks buy HD displays over the next couple of years. Both formats look really great on my HDTV, easily the best HD viewing experience curently available. Totally smokes cable/satellite/over-the-air HD signals.

[serega]

HD responds to Target's Blu-ray deal.

As reported earlier, Target has decided to carry a Sony Blu-ray player for its only high-definition player this holiday season. This has prompted comments from Ken Graffeo, co-president of the North American HD DVD Promotional Group, who has pointed out that this is just a merchandise decision, not an endorsement of either format.

“All they are announcing is they are merchandising an endcap with Blu-ray, which is normal merchandising at any retailer. Just like HD DVD has a dedicated endcap at Best Buy, and a dedicated endcap at Circuit City, and dedicated space and fixturing at Wal-mart.”

Target has noted that while this is their choice for HD hardware, they will continue to carry software in both formats. They seem to have missed out on the fact that the HD DVD players are currently cheaper. Maybe their customers will help a bit and point this out when they buy elsewhere.

Users and retailers are getting tired of waiting for any resolution to this mess, and most have no real interest in either format as sales of DVDs are slowing down and declining. Dual format players are the only resolution.




http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/HD-responds-to-Targets-Blu-ray-deal_.html

[MozartMan]

HD responds to Target's Blu-ray deal.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/HD-responds-to-Targets-Blu-ray-deal_.html

serega,

Ken Graffeo is pederast. CDfreaks and DailyTech only say about second part of the Sony Target deal: end caps. But they don't say about the first, main part:

Target Stores said it will carry Sony’s $499 Blu-ray Disc player as its exclusive high-definition home video system during the critical holiday selling season and expand its inventory of Blu-ray Disc software.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=10947

[DereX888]

Key word for me is Microsoft. For that reason alone I will never buy HD DVD.

But you don't mind using Microsoft WINDOWS (whatever version) :O
Why is that?
(don't tell me because your fav. game doesnt run on your other linux PC or Mac LOL)

And your Windows is a Microsoft product, while HD-DVD has as much in common with MS as your old socks...
What a hipocrite.

Blue Ray is a Sony product.
That alone is a BIG WARNING SIGN for consumers that such product is probably:
- heavily infected with DRMs
- proprietary
- may contain 'hidden features' (rootkits galore, anyone?)
- is being made in the same el-cheapo low-quality chinese factories where the wages are same few bucks a day as other companies do, but YOU will pay more for the "Its a Sony" sticker on the product...