Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[Nilfennasion]

This whole format war has just gotten tedious and boring. It was over months ago. All that is left is for the few problems with Blu-Ray to be sorted out (such as how to make an Australian player play American discs).

When HD-DVD enthusiasts can stop bleating "Sony = baaaaaaaaaaaaad" at me for ten seconds and explain to me where their HD-DVDs of RoboCop, the director's cut of Hollow Man, X-Men 2, or Zwartboek went, maybe that might wake them up to the fact that content is king. What does HD-DVD have as an exclusive that I would want to watch on a sometimes twice-daily basis like RoboCop?

Hey, maybe HD-DVD players will be only $300 here come MoneyMas. Too bad there is nothing I want to watch on it that is worth making that kind of investment in.

[lordsmurf]

This whole format war has just gotten tedious and boring. It was over months ago.

That's fanboy speak. The "war" is still raging. The real issue is people don't really care. We want our DVDs, thanks.

[Nilfennasion]

That's fanboy speak.

This reminds me of a quote from Eightball Magazine's author about Ray Benzino. Basically, he stated that Ray's rap was terrible because you could predict every word out of Ray's mouth before he rapped it. It also happens to be quite wrong. I just happen to find Toshiba a much more insidious, prick-run company than Sony. And I have been in the offices of both, talking with the home entertainment staff of both. Toshiba's attitude in customer service is literally "fukk what the consumer wants... we will tell them what they want".

The sad thing about that is they can tell me I want Serenity or FireFly in HD until their mouths begin to bleed. It will not make me want RoboCop instead any less.

The "war" is still raging.

Again, untrue. I might believe this if the studios were evenly split regarding which format they wanted their material on. But they are not. But then, given the often grossly inaccurate statements that seem to spring out of here like grass out of dirt, I would expect the anti-Sony sheep to bleat that HD-DVD is winning when the Star Wars films are released on Blu-Ray (which is considerably more likely given Fox is Blu-Ray exclusive).

The real issue is people don't really care.

One time, I went into a store and asked if they stock DVD+Rs. The response from the staff member was more or less exactly "nobody buys those". My response, sounding a bit like it was half prompted by a good case of rabies, was along the lines of "oh, so I am nobody, am I?". The reality, again, is that people do care because they have seen the difference and do not wish to go back. The mere idea of a format that is not inherently interlaced and can be played back at 24 frames per second is something I had never dared to hope for even seven years ago. When I am really old, I will tell my grandkids horror stories about how sometimes your TV would flicker really annoyingly and make your eyes water by doing so, and they will be unable to tell if I am making it up. For all the Sony-bashing that goes on in this forum, they seem to do a hell of a lot more forward-thinking than anyone here is capable of.

We want our DVDs, thanks.

Having seen Kung Fu Hustle both on DVD-Video and on Blu-Ray, all I can tell you is speak for yourself. The latter prompts me to wonder how awesome it would be to watch while coked out of my gourd and getting a BJ from an old girlfriend. Something I quit wondering with SD around the time I saw what it generally looks like on a screen larger than eighty centimetres.

[SCDVD]

And I have been in the offices of both, talking with the home entertainment staff of both.

Since you have been in their offices speaking with the staff, it's obvious that you have a pony in this race. I'm curious; what kind of involved interest do you have?

[SingSing]

Quote "Home Media Research, a division of Home Media Magazine, said on Tuesday total U.S. sales of Blu-ray discs, using a Sony Corp (6758.T)-backed technology, totaled 2.6 million units from January 1 through Sept 30, versus 1.4 million HD-DVD discs sold."

Basically, people are NOT buying into HD or BLU !

[oldandinthe way]

The war may be raging but the greed of the participants prevents successful implementation of any battle plan.

Exclusive availability of a movie on one medium in the US does not mean it is not available in some other country on the competing medium. The nature of distribution is such that the distributors have limited areas of influence and can decide on their own media.

The Wall Street Journal had an article on this. Some American entrepeneurs are importing movies from countries like Poland where the competing media are available. And remember HD-DVD has no region coding. Sell prices resemble the list prices in the US.

In spite of this, the WSJ says, that when potential imports are factored in each of the competitors has roughly 150 titles. Hardly enough to fuel the fire.

[DereX888]

More than half the mankind lives in Asia in China + India (and it is probably some 2/3 of the mankind if we don't count african population, since Africa is insignificant for technological advances of our civilization).
Both countries are catching up with technologies pretty fast, specially China.
Both countries together make more movies than all western countries in few years combined.
Unlike some 10 years ago, when they were basically factories for western consumers with no local market for the products they were manufacturing, nowadays a $100-$200 player's price is maybe not 'cheap' yet as it is for western buyers, but certainly it is already affordable to these people.
So,
I guess what format they will implement there on their markets in the next few years will impact us more than the current 'high-def players turbulence' we see on our markets.

I hope history won't repeat itself as it was with audio cassettes and VHS reign in US and Europe (while civilized Asia switched to LDs and partially to MDs) and we all won't stuck with DVDs and 2 limping competitive HD formats, while Asia leaps forward on to some third HD disc format.

[slacker]

All of my personal video is stored on tape and hard drive, not disc. Commercial movies I wish to purchase and watch are either available through Comcast cable or a myriad of internet based delivery services.

You can purchase an 8 gb memory card for under $100. Rewritable single sided blueray goes for about $20. In my lifetime these two technologies will crossover and plastic oil-based discs will go the way of the dinosaur.

Who ultimately needs a disc?

This is a silly war!

[DereX888]

All of my personal video is stored on tape and hard drive, not disc. Commercial movies I wish to purchase and watch are either available through Comcast cable or a myriad of internet based delivery services.

You can purchase an 8 gb memory card for under $100. Rewritable single sided blueray goes for about $20. In my lifetime these two technologies will crossover and plastic oil-based discs will go the way of the dinosaur.

Who ultimately needs a disc?

This is a silly war!

you are so shortsighted :O
The future of optical storage (DISCS) is in the multilayer technologies, which at present already allow TERABYTES of storage as experimental disc formats proved in past years, while present technology doesn't even have any clue or concept on how to conquer physical limits to expand NAND/flash storages beyond mere hundreds of megabytes without changing significantly the size and architecture of flash memory.

[lordsmurf]

Just a few years ago we said DL burning (we were told so by engineers in the field) was not possible. When I stared shooting DSLR, I was told GB's was not going to be possible in flash-type format (CompactFlash, being the only real format of the time). I burn DVD+R DL weekly and shoot a power DSLR to an 8GB card daily. They have 32GB cards now, the size barely bigger than a credit card, and not at all as fragile as a spinning disk or optical disc.

I truly believe flash-based solid-state RAM is the future, not frail discs or disks.

[edDV]

I truly believe flash-based solid-state RAM is the future, not frail discs or disks.

So does Sandisk. These are their SSD flash hard drives available ATA or SATA. A bit pricy now but perfect for a laptop.

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1318765

[DereX888]

yeah i wish solid state memory to prevail too, just the convenience of not having any moving parts in a device utilizing it is already giant leap forward from discs.
However mere 64GB of storage as of 2007, and 128GB thats supposedly to come out next year or 2009, versus already existing 1000 GB on a single multilayered disc (i.e. Mempile's Terabyte Disc) or much more (in example a 100,000 GB - 100 terabytes - proposed holographic disc technology from Colossal Storage) is way, WAY beyond what is currently possible with solid state memory.
The price of a retail product doesn't matter at all as it always go down quick to become 'affordable by the masses' as soon as given technology is used world-wide. I've paid $200 for a first 1GB SD card for my pocketpc and I had to import it from Japan, nowadays I use 8GB SD cards that are available at $70/pc at my local store. Dual layer recordable discs used to have prohibitive prices too, nowadays theyre cheaper than good quality CD-Rs...
Wishful thinking never led anywhere.
Discs are cheaper to mass-produce than solid-state, and I think they always will (unless some another technological breakthough happens and we get i.e. mass-made organically 'grown' memory or such... which is still at science fiction novels level unfortunately)

[mats.hogberg]

solid-state RAM is the future, not frail discs or disks.

So does Sandisk.

Hardly surprising, as they are in the solid state RAM business.

/Mats

[lordsmurf]

The difference here, for those not keeping score, is that high-GB flash media works and is for sale. High-GB optical media only exists in labs, and is not for sale, and won't be any time soon (if ever). More pricey, yes. But mass production has a way of removing that barrier. Even if a good flash disc cost $2-3 blank in the long run, it would be a good price. Don't use 35 cents per DVD as a measuring stick, as it's a fluke to media pricing.

[DereX888]

The difference here, for those not keeping score, is that high-GB flash media works and is for sale. High-GB optical media only exists in labs, and is not for sale, and won't be any time soon (if ever). More pricey, yes. But mass production has a way of removing that barrier. Even if a good flash disc cost $2-3 blank in the long run, it would be a good price. Don't use 35 cents per DVD as a measuring stick, as it's a fluke to media pricing.

what do you mean is not for sale?
High GB optical discs are on the market longer than any single-GB flash storage appeared (DVD-Rs available since end of the year 2000 AFAIR, years ahead of first 1GB SD/MMC to appear, and recordable BR discs came out in what - 2006? or end of 2005? - which were still ahead of flash memory sizes at that time).
Its the TB discs that are still not mass-manufactured even though we've seen more than dozen different concepts
And its only recently that the solid state drives exceeded size of DL DVD-Rs.
While multiTB-size optical discs are already being made as experimental devices (100TB disc in 2004), no one has made any terabyte-size solid-state drive even experimentally just as a proof of concept :/

[slacker]

By the way,

the material and labor costs of producing discs will be going up, not down in the near future, so you need to factor that in. And the costs of hardware to read those discs will be going up, not down, due to the complexity of the 'reading' technology. I'm still betting my money on flash long term for the masses!

[maek]

I didn't bother going through all 15 pages, but the one tidbit about the current media war that I find fascinating is that the motion picture industry. Do you think that Sony or Universal are going to back down?

No, I believe that the future will actually be dual-format players. I'm waiting for one to become affordable, and bug-free; I've heard some bad stories about LG's issues with HD-DVD on their current player.

Bottom line - it's not going to boil down to VHS and Beta, where VHS won out NOT because it was the better format, but because it received heavier marketing. Marketing is not going to amount to a hill of beans worth of difference as long as you have heavy-weights backing the formats.

And let's face it...HD-DVD, in comparison to Blu-Ray, sucks. But it will survive, thanks to support from idiots.

[FulciLives]

I didn't bother going through all 15 pages, but the one tidbit about the current media war that I find fascinating is that the motion picture industry. Do you think that Sony or Universal are going to back down?

No, I believe that the future will actually be dual-format players. I'm waiting for one to become affordable, and bug-free; I've heard some bad stories about LG's issues with HD-DVD on their current player.

Bottom line - it's not going to boil down to VHS and Beta, where VHS won out NOT because it was the better format, but because it received heavier marketing. Marketing is not going to amount to a hill of beans worth of difference as long as you have heavy-weights backing the formats.

And let's face it...HD-DVD, in comparison to Blu-Ray, sucks. But it will survive, thanks to support from idiots.

You were making a lot of sense until that last bit (the part I put in BOLD text).

If anything the HD-DVD format makes MORE sense than Blu-Ray ... hell Blu-Ray is out now yet the spec still has yet to be finalized! At least HD-DVD is finalized and appears to be working rather well for the most part although there are some HD-DVD discs with issues but there are also some Blu-Ray discs with issues.

Anyways I see many more "pluses" for the HD-DVD format than the Blu-Ray format. I'm talking on a purely technical/feasible level and not necessarily which format has the "better selection" of movies.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[maek]

Finalized...yet deficient. It's like somebody finished 2nd grade English and decided to write novels. Then again, Dan Brown IS a bestseller so I guess that there's no counting on taste.

Seriously, however, memory capacity alone is abhorrent in comparison. The current standard for both puts 15 GB on HD-DVD, yet 25 GB on Blu-ray. THEORETICAL limits on the HD-DVD format suggests capacity as high as 60GB, yet 200 GB for Blu-Ray.

Ok - so maybe it's not "finalized." But just because you finished the test first doesn't mean you scored an "A." Blu-Ray gets my vote based on perceived longevity.

However, since neither format is likely to back down, my vote is for dual-format capable players and a hope that HD-DVD will die a slow death when technology starts to demand and excel HD-DVD's capabilities.

[DereX888]

just ROTFL
(at consumer idiots backing either HD camp)

[maek]

I'm merely saying that Blu-ray has higher capacity both now and in the future.

I would prefer a dual player...period.

[DereX888]

What we all should prefer is a single universal format, period.

Usually when market cannot find solution, the govt. agencies got involved and 'regulate' it for corporations, as it was in the past with various arrays of problems - from broadcast airwaves through banking rules and systems and cellullar communication. I just wonder why they can set the 'rules' for new HD TV, but they didn't expand to HD storage.
Don't get me wrong, I'm for the least govt involvment as possible in any case, but clearly when leading companies on the market cannot agree on a standards, a "third party" ought to be called and set the standards, how hard it is to do?
Both HD-DVD and Sony camps easily can afford to loose their formats anyways. Yeah, I imagine shares to drop for short time, but its their fault. The public's interest is to have choice of content, not choice of incompatible formats on top of content.

[valvehead]

I agree that flash memory is still relatively expensive compared to optical media, but consider this:

If we are talking about delivery of movie content, then the solid state device only has to be ROM. Would it not be a whole lot cheaper to manufacture than flash memory?

[RabidDog]

Blu vs HD vs Internet
Indies vs Studiosi
Writers vs Studios

Who knows? OIl is increang pricely, I/net is Fatly pipes, Computer is x10!
mpeg2 mpeg4 avc wavelets wireless

[jagabo]

Usually when market cannot find solution, the govt. agencies got involved and 'regulate' it... I just wonder why they can set the 'rules' for new HD TV, but they didn't expand to HD storage.

The government doesn't regulate HDTV -- it regulates the broadcast of HDTV. The airwaves are a limited and shared resource. Hence the need for regulation.

[DereX888]

I agree that flash memory is still relatively expensive compared to optical media, but consider this:

If we are talking about delivery of movie content, then the solid state device only has to be ROM. Would it not be a whole lot cheaper to manufacture than flash memory?

I just can't see how making a solid state memory (rather technologically advanced process) can be cheaper from pouring a dye on a clear plastic ring?
Actually I am even sure it will never be cheaper.
But considering lack of any moving parts in a solid state drives, I think most of us would prefer flash storage rather than optical disc storage, even if it would be at slightly higher prices. The main problem is that solid state barely reached 1TB last year (Texas Instruments or someone made it) at incredibly high premium, while 100TB optical multilayered disc are possible for few years already and although expensive as well (as any other experimental toy) still not even at a quarter of the cost of just 1TB SSD.
I'm for SSD too, but considering the above, I doubt the switch to flash drives will happen before at least one or two more transitions to yet-another-higher-capacity optical disc format.

Usually when market cannot find solution, the govt. agencies got involved and 'regulate' it... I just wonder why they can set the 'rules' for new HD TV, but they didn't expand to HD storage.

The government doesn't regulate HDTV -- it regulates the broadcast of HDTV. The airwaves are a limited and shared resource. Hence the need for regulation.

Of course youre right.

[Conquest10]

Usually when market cannot find solution, the govt. agencies got involved and 'regulate' it... I just wonder why they can set the 'rules' for new HD TV, but they didn't expand to HD storage.

The government doesn't regulate HDTV -- it regulates the broadcast of HDTV. The airwaves are a limited and shared resource. Hence the need for regulation.

Of course youre right.

What are you talking about? Give an example of the government finding a solution.

The government doesn't regulate HDTV. It regulates the airwaves and what is broadcast over it (try selling radio transmitters without government approval). The delay in the switch to digital just goes to show that the government is useless here and will do nothing about it.

[DereX888]

Usually when market cannot find solution, the govt. agencies got involved and 'regulate' it... I just wonder why they can set the 'rules' for new HD TV, but they didn't expand to HD storage.

The government doesn't regulate HDTV -- it regulates the broadcast of HDTV. The airwaves are a limited and shared resource. Hence the need for regulation.

Of course youre right.

What are you talking about? Give an example of the government finding a solution.

The government doesn't regulate HDTV. It regulates the airwaves and what is broadcast over it (try selling radio transmitters without government approval). The delay in the switch to digital just goes to show that the government is useless here and will do nothing about it.

I.e. forcing Ma'Bell to split was govt's action, thanks to which we all i.e. enjoyed (for a while) one of the cheapest long distance phone call rates.

Just because of the current Presidiot in the White House you can't just say 'anything' govt does (or did in the past) is bad LOL
Usually such 'rulers' are anomaly rather than the norm.

BTW the delay to switch to digital - Since general public seems to be quite happy with the quality of standard television, IMHO it was completely unneccessary to enforce this switch to digital broadcast, at least not without having HD television sets in at least half of the households in the country first. I don't know who proposed this first, but it must have been some Big Co.'s paid puppet, that's for sure.

[maek]

Not necessarily...HD broadcast is probably standardized to some degree to be useful for the Department of Defense in someway.

It's a little off topic, though.

[edDV]

The analog TV shutdown is all about freeing spectrum for other uses. Digital broadcasting allows more local channels (closer spacing) using about half the spectrum space.

First to get expanded bandwidth are emergency services. The open frequency licences will be auctioned with revenue returning to the government. Those in line to bid are mostly telco and other wireless providers.

The analog shutdown has never been driven by HDTV. HDTV was a byproduct of the process of converting to digital.