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  1. Hi, I posted before about the smallest mpg1 I could get but I decided to put it onto two discs as everyone was saying the quality would be very poor.
    But I was wondering if there are other formats that could be used to put onto 1 CD-R 80mins, Like KVCD or anything like that or any other formats?

    Thank you.
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  2. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    WMV -

    Pro:
    Compatible on just about any windows machine.
    About 1/4 the file size for same quality compared to MPEG1

    Con:
    Requires a computer or WMV device for playback

    Divx -

    Pro:
    Plays on some standalone DVD players
    About 1/4 the file size for same quality compared to MPEG1

    Con:
    Requires divx codec installed for computer playback

    KVCD-

    Pro:
    None

    Con:
    Everything.

    --------------------------

    If your target is for playback of CD's on a DVD player VCD is your only choice if you want to make discs for the widest audience.
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  3. Oh sorry I forgot to mention I would like to play these on my DVD player.

    EDIT:
    Oh I just read what you said under your post.
    Hmm... Ok thank you.
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    Most DVD players don't support Divx and those that do are often fussy about what encode options they will support for playback. Divx offers a real good trade off of file size and quality (much higher quality video than VCD at lower file sizes), but every DVD player can't play them. For best compatibility you should avoid:
    1) GMC
    2) QPel (Quarter Pixel)
    3) Resolutions greater than 720x576
    4) Packed bitstream
    5) Don't go above a bit rate of 2000 Kbps. Lower bit rates offer greater playback compatibility.

    I remember your other post. Basically, if you just want to jam everything on one CD-R, either go with Divx or live with low quality video in either VCD or SVCD. VCD 2.0 should support lower bit rates in CBR video, but the quality will get worse the lower your bit rate. If I remember your other post has some responses with good guidelines.
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    Since quality is somewhat a matter of individual taste, you may wish to experiment a little bit to discover what is acceptable to you. As I mentioned in my response to your earlier post, getting 99 minutes of near-VCD quality video on a single CD is doable (I routinely squeeze 2 hours, but I am not seeking or expecting DVD quality). The bigger issue for me was compatibility with DVD players. I discovered quickly, as have others on this site, that the dirt-cheap players from China tend to have fewer problems playing these non-standard XVCDs (and I include KVCDs as a subset of XVCD). So, if VCD quality is acceptable to you, then a slightly degraded VCD may also be acceptable to you, particularly if you deem a single-disc version to be important. Some people deem all VCDs, no matter how expertly created, to be unalloyed crap. Others are not as fussy. Try an experiment or two and determine for yourself what you do or don't like.
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    Many many more standalone players support SVCD format than any "divx" format.
    I haven't seen player not supporting VCD/SVCD playback for years (but still majority of players manufactured and sold DON'T support "divx" and its variants).
    So
    If youre looking for best possible quality to fit a movie-length content (90-120min) on a single CD-R disc, your only option is SVCD - SuperVCD (Super VideoCD).

    SVCD format
    pro:
    Variable MPEG-2 compression (same as DVD)
    chaptering, possibility of multiple audio tracks, simple menus
    best quality (next to DVD and dvd-ripped divx, way better than VCD, KVCD, XVCD etc)
    cons:
    only MPEG audio tracks (no AC3 or DTS)
    older standalones (from before 2005/2004) may not support it

    BUT
    if you really want to have it as widely supported as possible, you can use
    CVD format
    which is basically SVCD with slightly smaller but fully DVD-Video-compliant video resolution (thus it is playable on virtually any standalone dvd player, and has another bonus: such files can be used to make standard DVD-Video without any additional work needed)
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    SVCD certainly produces better-looking results than VCD, but at a tradeoff in filesize. Since the OP was initially looking to squeeze 99 minutes onto a single CDR, SVCD might not produce acceptable output (motion artifacts will be much worse). But it's worth experimenting with it, I agree. Who knows? Maybe a minor tweak, to produce an XSVCD, might get him to 99min on a single disc with ok results.
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    Originally Posted by tomlee59
    SVCD certainly produces better-looking results than VCD, but at a tradeoff in filesize. Since the OP was initially looking to squeeze 99 minutes onto a single CDR, SVCD might not produce acceptable output (motion artifacts will be much worse). But it's worth experimenting with it, I agree. Who knows? Maybe a minor tweak, to produce an XSVCD, might get him to 99min on a single disc with ok results.
    You don't need XSVCD but SVCD made with good encoder (and I would add at least temporal smoother filter in this case); using 4-pass variable bitrate simply must give better results than a XVCD on an average-motion 99-min long movie. Why? Because SVCD's (or CVD's) MPEG-2 has better compression, and by using variable bitrate at least encoder can allocate more than average bitrate to the high motion scenes and use less for low motion scenes. With XVCD you will be using same average bitrate, but in constant bitrate (so no control over bitrate allocation to higher/lower motion scenes), and you will be using MPEG-1 compression, which is inferior to MPEG-2. The only 'good' thing for VCD is its inferior lower resolution, which may (or may not) slightly compensate for the quality differences on low motion scenes since (which is anyways hard to predict; best is to make actual encoding and select the one which looks best to the owner's eye). Unless you were thinking about VBR MPEG-1 compression for this XVCD - which in theory could be best solution in this case, but in reality it would be more like "computers-only" format and have the lowest playback compatibility with standalones possible, since majority of the standalones chokes, freezes and does many other things with VBR MPEG-1 files or XVCDs with VBR MPEG-1

    IMHO optimal solution in this case is CVD; best quality solution would be two-disc SVCD.
    (BTW: if the content is 16x9 then certainly I'd go with 1xCDR SVCD / 4-5 pass VBR)
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    Thanks for the careful analysis -- I agree that SVCD produces superior results; mpeg2 is indeed superior to mpeg1, particularly for interlaced source material and at higher bitrates. However, the differences diminish for progressive material at low bitrates. Basically, MPEG1 is crappier to start off with, but doesn't degrade as quickly as bitrates go down. MPEG2 is tuned to provide "virtually" visually lossless results at higher bitrates, but exhibits a faster quality rolloff at low bitrates. For the OP's task, VBR Mpeg1 (I won't call it KVCD, for fear of kicking off another round of heated posts) might not do as poorly as one would ordinarily think. And in my experience, it seems to be better supported (by cheapo players, at least) than SVCD, so I guess it depends on what equipment you happen to own. For me, SVCD seems to have more compatibility issues (the header hack creates as many problems as it solves -- it just changes which players choke). But I endorse your suggestion that the OP give SVCD/CVD a try, to see what works best with his equipment, eyeballs, and taste.
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    Originally Posted by tomlee59
    (let the OP) see what works best with his equipment, eyeballs, and taste.
    I agree to agree

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  11. Originally Posted by DereX888
    Many many more standalone players support SVCD format than any "divx" format.
    I haven't seen player not supporting VCD/SVCD playback for years (but still majority of players manufactured and sold DON'T support "divx" and its variants).
    So
    If youre looking for best possible quality to fit a movie-length content (90-120min) on a single CD-R disc, your only option is SVCD - SuperVCD (Super VideoCD).

    SVCD format
    pro:
    Variable MPEG-2 compression (same as DVD)
    chaptering, possibility of multiple audio tracks, simple menus
    best quality (next to DVD and dvd-ripped divx, way better than VCD, KVCD, XVCD etc)
    cons:
    only MPEG audio tracks (no AC3 or DTS)
    older standalones (from before 2005/2004) may not support it

    BUT
    if you really want to have it as widely supported as possible, you can use
    CVD format
    which is basically SVCD with slightly smaller but fully DVD-Video-compliant video resolution (thus it is playable on virtually any standalone dvd player, and has another bonus: such files can be used to make standard DVD-Video without any additional work needed)
    Thank you for letting me know this, but how would I got about finding an encoder for a good SVCD and/or CVD, I looked CVD up on google and well, the most I found out was that it stood for China Video Disc.
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    If you go to the "What Is" section at the top left and look at SVCD, you will see a link to some information on CVD. It's basically an SVCD with a resolution of 352x480 (NTSC) or 352x576 (PAL) instead of the normal SVCD 480x480 or 480x576.
    Note that CVD uses 44.1 Khz audio just like SVCD, which is invalid for DVD. In the past I've read about people who have created SVCDs or CVDs with 48 Khz audio and been able to play them on DVD players, but technically this violates the standards of both formats. It may or may not work for you, but if it does, at least you would not have to upconvert the audio from 44.1 Khz to 48 Khz in the future if you want to put the video on DVD or some other futuristic format like HD-DVD and BluRay.

    The HC Encoder is free and does an excellent job, but you need to give it either a d2v file or an Avisynth script as input. You can do some web searching to get info on how to do that or perhaps some of the guides at this site will tell you how to do that.
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  13. the most I found out was that it stood for China Video Disc.
    That's correct.
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    Originally Posted by jman98
    If you go to the "What Is" section at the top left and look at SVCD, you will see a link to some information on CVD. It's basically an SVCD with a resolution of 352x480 (NTSC) or 352x576 (PAL) instead of the normal SVCD 480x480 or 480x576.
    Note that CVD uses 44.1 Khz audio just like SVCD, which is invalid for DVD. In the past I've read about people who have created SVCDs or CVDs with 48 Khz audio and been able to play them on DVD players, but technically this violates the standards of both formats. It may or may not work for you, but if it does, at least you would not have to upconvert the audio from 44.1 Khz to 48 Khz in the future if you want to put the video on DVD or some other futuristic format like HD-DVD and BluRay.

    The HC Encoder is free and does an excellent job, but you need to give it either a d2v file or an Avisynth script as input. You can do some web searching to get info on how to do that or perhaps some of the guides at this site will tell you how to do that.
    jman98, I have been using SVCD and CVD formats for some time in the past, and I can assure you that 48kHz audio was not a problem for any standalone dvd player capable of playing them at all (back then - so I imagine nowadays it won't be any problem either).

    I dont even want to discuss any technicality (or legality) of 'violating the standard'. Look at the history of both formats and you'll see they were created per Chinese Govt. order, as a defence of their market against greed of those who own DVD standard and an instrument of putting pressure on the Big Co. which threatened them enough to lower down licencing fees for chinese manufacturers. Short-lived as it was, it still was a great proof of concept that Big Co. cannot always dictate anything they want.
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    Dunno what the problem is with KVCD if you're trying to get single disc MPG1 encodes on a regular CD... worked fine for me and my player, even up to 2 hours (for letterboxed material at least). I rather expect it to be an encoder or user problem instead
    (I used CQ and 2-pass VBR in TMPGEnc at max quality, with a disc customised to min/max of 250 and 2500kbit - if you're stuck to CBR, or VBR with a max of 1150k, you'll almost inevitably get blocking at some point, or the custom matrix/the encoder smoothing things out drastically to try and prevent it)

    if you're happy going to a multi-disc setup you may as well try CVD or SVCD to improve the resolution somewhat.

    these days i would seriously suggest trying DVD instead though, which ends a lot of the messing about. the money you spend on CDRs to test different methods could outstrip the price of a new multi-format DVD burner of really quite exceptional quality, and the media isn't so much more expensive than CDR (certainly comparing getting one or two titles on a single disc, as opposed to splitting one title over two discs)
    -= She sez there's ants in the carpet, dirty little monsters! =-
    Back after a long time away, mainly because I now need to start making up vidcapped DVDRs for work and I haven't a clue where to start any more!
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    :: Choppa wrote:

    > Hi, I posted before about the smallest mpg1 I could get but
    > I decided to put it onto two discs as everyone was saying
    > the quality would be very poor. But I was wondering if there
    > are other formats that could be used to put onto
    > 1 CD-R 80mins, Like KVCD or anything like that or
    > any other formats? Thank you.

    Well, mpeg files encoded with high-compression quantization
    matrices(that is to say, kvcd, bdvd, pvcd, mvcd, whatever)
    can be used to author mini-DVDs as well. My cheap&dirty
    SAP made in Asia plays SVCDs, but not very well(for example,
    fast-motion playback is limited to 8X, and subtitles are not
    displayed at all). On the other hand, it plays miniDVDs exactly
    as if it was playing an actual DVD. Because miniDVDs cannot
    contain more than 703 MB of data, and I always and only
    use the Constant-Quality method to encode, the final video resolution
    depends on the "compressibility" of the source --- so one movie
    is encoded in 512x384, the other in 528x400, the third one in
    544x480, the next one in mere 352x480, and so on;
    Blade Runner could not exceed 576x432;
    The V... Monologues managed to use 100% DVD-compliant 704x480,
    whereas The Animatrix was encoded in 640x480 and did require 2 CDs.
    And yes, this all is mainly a matter of trial-and-error.
    If you SAP can playback miniDVD, I think it wouldn't hurt
    to give it a try ^_~

    ==============================
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    Originally Posted by Choppa
    Thank you for letting me know this, but how would I got about finding an encoder for a good SVCD and/or CVD, I looked CVD up on google and well, the most I found out was that it stood for China Video Disc.
    You look wrong
    You should've look for MPEG encoders, not SVCD encoder.
    SVCD, VCD, XVCD, CVD, DVD, MP4, DIVX, XVID, HDTV, BR-HD, HDDVD - so far theyre all MPEGs, just with differences in compressions, bitrates and resolutions. The way they are 'stored' on their appropiate disc types etc etc (or 'delivered' remotely) is actually secondary and irrelevant to audio and video streams themselves.
    Granted, there are no all-in-one encoders for all of them, but almost any MPEG-2 will do CVD/SVCD/DVD/... (and sometimes MPEG-1s too, ie TMPGEnc) so search there (another tip: look on the left pane of this board )
    I admit am bit surprised, since youve found what CVD/SVCD is, you should have know now what you need?


    Let us know what you decided and what you settled on
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    Originally Posted by EddyH
    Dunno what the problem is with KVCD if you're trying to get single disc MPG1 encodes on a regular CD... worked fine for me and my player,
    If it works for you there's nothing wrong with using it, however there's some consequences to consider. Thw chances of it playing elesewhere are greatly diminshed compared to a standard VCD. What about when your player dies and the next one you purchase doesn't play KVCD?
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    :: thecoalman wrote:

    > What about when your player dies and
    > the next one you purchase doesn't play KVCD?

    Well, I do not believe any minimally-intelligent DVD-player manufacturer
    will keep producing devices that do not support(even if partially only)
    as many video and audio formats as possible.
    Well, I'm talking about places ouside of the U.S.A., naturally.

    =======================
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    Originally Posted by Midzuki
    Well, I do not believe any minimally-intelligent DVD-player manufacturer
    will keep producing devices that do not support(even if partially only)
    as many video and audio formats as possible.
    Well, I'm talking about places ouside of the U.S.A., naturally.
    And the point is? A Non-standard disc is still a roll of the dice. If you make disc within standards chances of it not playing now and in the future are slim to none.
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    Can we have for once "Kwaq VCD"-free discussion?
    PLEASE!


    Midzuki, its been proven on many sites that less players support KVCDs than SVCD or CVD.
    Yes, sometimes using f'd-up matrices may give better results than using standard ones, and KVCD may be handy in such cases, but then - why not use XVID or even DIVX? After all chances of playback compatibility on standalones are about the same, while MPEG-4 obviously gives better result than Kwaq's MPEG-1 matrice for VCD...
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  22. I decided to use KVCD, I use the programs VideoCalc, TMPGEnc and Nero. The quality is good, it's not DVD quality but it's good enough, I guess the quality is the same as a long-play video. That's on my computer, for some reason (I'm not saying it's a miracle, I just don't know why) it's alot better quality on my TV, the size of my TV screen is alot bigger then my monitor, at least 2 and a half times bigger but the quality on it is alot better. I just use the calculator to calculate the size of the bitrate I should choose with TMPGEnc, then convert it and burn with Nero. It's good
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  23. It looks better on your TV set since a SDTV is a low resolution display and it is hiding many of the defects.

    The quality you see on your computer screen is what it will look like when, when not if, you upgrade to a HDTV. In fact it will look worse because of the larger screen size.

    Been there done that.
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    Originally Posted by Choppa
    I decided to use KVCD,
    /.../
    Traitor!
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    DereX888 wrote:

    Midzuki, its been proven on many sites that less players support KVCDs than SVCD or CVD.
    It seems you believe the entire world is made of places whose
    respective inhabitants are native speakers of a certain language
    whose main feature is reduce to monosyllables and sesquisyllables
    as many words as possible... In other words, I would read cvm grano salis
    anything those "reliable-sourced" web sites say about the
    non-capabilities of standalone DVD-players.


    \\\\\
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  26. I ran some test KVCD through several Players. They all played it linear. However FF/FRev or slo-mo or resume after a pause were all problematic.

    So I wouldn't call that supporting KVCD. And the quality was lousy even compared to a VCD. However if you feel a need to take a 2 hour DVD and squeeze it to a MPEG format 1 CD output it may be better than nothing. Myself I would just stay at DVD quality by staying DVD. Cost of Discs & burners is similar.

    A Test Divx for the same file size and source looked much better. And it played properly in a Philips 5982/5960 and as a Ultra Divx had chapters and menus.
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  27. 6 tested players, 6 KVCD failures. I did better with mini-DVD, 1 success out of 6.

    Used sample file disk images for both.

    Quality is what each individual perceives it as. Same with racial, ethnic, cultural, or national bias.

    I'm also pretty sure CVD is actually Chaoji Video disk, with "chaoji" being Chinese for "super". I forget if technically an SVCD is a CVD or if it is the other way around, both are now included in the same standard. CVD playability from all reports is identical to SVCD playability and not related to the ability to play a VCD. CVD and SVCD are identical except for a minor resolution difference. VCD is very different, and has been in existence for a much longer time.

    Recent perusal of DVD players in stores showed almost all labeled as supporting VCD and SVCD. I have Never seen any player labeled with "KVCD" support.

    Also, extremely few people have any working knowledge of Latin, much larger numbers can speak, read, and write english. Lots of big, and small, words in most any language.
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    Of course there are no players with "KVCD support". It just may or may not (in vast majority) be playable on given player.

    "KVCD" and other "K-something" are usually (re)encodings with fucked up matrices (first created by a dude with nickname Kwaq or such, I dont remember and dont wanna know either). It can be based on VCD, SVCD, DVD etc specs - but again: with fucked up matrice, which means basically most of standard dvd players will NOT be able to play it properly or would play with other problems. As such it is to be played on computers.

    Chaoji Video Disc, also known as China Video Disc (CVD) is a 1/2 DVD resolution. It is a "chinese-design version of SuperVCD". It is perfectly playable on any standalone player.

    SuperVCD (SVCD) is a 2/3 resolution of DVD. It is a "Philips-designed SuperVCD" and even though its supported by less standalone players (due to its resolution that is neither VCD nor DVD alike) it is still playable on many more standalones than "KVCD".

    All specs and infos for each are widely available.
    VCD and its subset SVCD are *standards*.
    DVD and its subset CVD are *standards*.
    "KVCD" "KSVCD" "KDVD" etc is not any format nor standard.

    Originally Posted by Midzuki
    DereX888 wrote:

    Midzuki, its been proven on many sites that less players support KVCDs than SVCD or CVD.
    It seems you believe the entire world is made of places whose
    respective inhabitants are native speakers of a certain language
    whose main feature is reduce to monosyllables and sesquisyllables
    as many words as possible... In other words, I would read cvm grano salis
    anything those "reliable-sourced" web sites say about the
    non-capabilities of standalone DVD-players.


    \\\\\
    It seems to me you'd need to take it with mountain of salt not a grain, since basically *every* source (from most to least reliable ones) basically say the same...

    KVCD, as a way to screw up standard matrices of any of the standard formats, obviously is not any standard or even a format.
    Creating any "KVCD" is just a way of creating erroneous disc on purpose (usually to 'squeeze in more video on a disc - like there was no better ways to do this than creating non-standard fucked up discs LOL) so if Midzuki and others prefer to believe something else its their problem, I dont care and I wont argue obvious facts. EOT.
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    Nelson37 wrote:

    Also, extremely few people have any working knowledge of Latin, much larger numbers can speak, read, and write english. Lots of big, and small, words in most any language.
    You don't understand
    (
    *shakes head*
    ).

    \\\\\\\\\\\\
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  30. I just though it odd that someone would complain about an english-language bias as a non-native English speaker and illustrate the point with the most nearly-dead language still around, with the possible exception of Esperanto. Deal with the facts and/or opinions expressed, you might as well be complaining about the keyboard used to create the statement. Irrelevant, and just not useful.

    CVD is NOT "perfectly playable on most standalone players". One-half D1, with 48k audio, on a DVD, is - but that is not a CVD.
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