mpeg1-(VCD) to DVD w subtitles - possible?? Help please!

[nbarzgar]

I have been trying to author a DVD-compliant mpeg1-file (PAL, 352x288) - taken from a TMPGEnc-XVCD (=> variable bitrate) - to DVD, and add subs ...

I tried DVDAuthorGUI, GfD, DVDlab Pro, muxman. They author nicely, but the subs are way out of a reasonable position everytime. Either they are not there at all, or they are there, but barely discernible on the bottom edge of the video. If I change the position in the authoring app, (or the subs themselves, using .sup-file, created with SubtitleCreator) they end up in the middle of the picture...

Does this mean, since it is mpeg1 at 352x288, subs just will never be quite right, because of the overlay-character subs have as stream in the DVD-structure? Or do I miss a point?

Please help someone! I am at my wit's end!!

[borax]

I've never tried it myself, but it should be possible.
What format have the subtitles at the beginning?

[nbarzgar]

I have both formats, .srt and .sup. I'm familiar with converting and creating/synching subs, as well as authoring DVDs with subtitles. I don't understand why the abovementioned effects occur on this particular file.

I imagine because of the resolution of the mpeg1 file, the subpictures that are created from subtitle files, are not correctly displayed in the final DVD. I' like to know a workaround for it...

[Cornucopia]

It could be an app bug or it could be a little-known DVD spec problem (mpeg1/CIF size with subpicture sizing expecting full D1).
If it's the former, try another app for now; if the latter, you'd probably have to re-encode to full D1 MPEG2 first (might be a good thing to try anyway).

Just a guess...you aren't trying to work in 16:9 by any chance are you? (DVD supports 16:9 for D1 sizes ONLY). If so, that's your problem.

Scott

[nbarzgar]

No, not 16:9 AR, I have also tried using different applications (s.a.).

Since I tried using SVCD2DVD as well, with the same result, I posted a new thread in it's forum today, here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic331392.html#1715965

I know that one should not be cross-posting and I DON'T as a rule, but this may be accepted as an exception? Since it concerns two different apps? Thanks in advance...

[AlanHK]

I did this a while ago, MPEG1 from a Japanese VCD and got English SRT subtitles, authored to DVD with GfD.

It did take a little playing around to get the subtitles in the right position, I didn't take notes so this is from memory:

In GfD, using SRT subtitles, in the load subtitles dialog, there is a button with a pen, click this and you get "subtitle formatting".
Down the bottom you'll see "width" and "height", set initially at the size of the video.
I think you actually have to change this to the "normal" PAL size, 720x576.
Anyway, adjustments here will move the subtitle. Experiment.

If you're using SUP files, the formatting settings in GfD will have no effect.
I actually made SUP files in Subtitle Creator, as that let me use italics, which the SRT renderer in GfD doesn't recognise. Make these at normal PAL size, not the actual size.

Also, you can change the position in your SUP file using DVDSubedit.
Move a subtitle to the correct position, then use Edit/apply last modification to all, save.

Normally you can use DVDSubedit to move the subtitle within a VOB, but I think this didn't work with MPEG1 VOBs, but if it does this would be another way.

[nbarzgar]

Thank you, AlanHK, for this detailed answer. I did all those things: I edited the .srt-file with Subtitle Creator and saved it as .sup, than used that in GfD. In this procedure I changed the resolution in the formatting-pop-up to the actual one and tried to keep it PAL-res. Same goes for .srt-file...

Because of all this try and error I now make the following assumption: the video-image of a mpeg1-DVD (i.e. actual 352x288) is enlarged to fit the screen, but NOT to Full D1 size (720x576 in this case=PAL), but a certain percentage of that size. That would explain, that in formatting the subs for both resolutions it goes wrong both times.

But what size/percentage would that be, actually? I mean, is there a place where it tells one about tese technicalities so as to enable correct formatting of the subs?

[AlanHK]

I never found any authoritative documents. Though MPEG1 is legal for DVDs it's rather rare and no one seems to go into details or even mention what happens to subtitles.

So it was trial and error for me too: I made SUP subtitles, copied them, changed the vertical postion in each in DVDSubedit, authored in GfD, which supports up to three subtitles for each movie. Then I could burn a DVDRW and compare them to find the exact setting that would cover the burnt-in subtitles.

If you want to change colours of SUP subs, best tool compatible with GfD is Supviewer, written by the same guy.

[GTRBudda]

Funny, someone else was asking a similar question a few days ago. https://forum.videohelp.com/topic330674.html#1711345

With Muxman, a full D1 sup over a 352x240 ntsc mpeg2 video worked fine. With DVDAuthorGui there were issues with using sup files, but long story short, it worked fine after correcting the video size with IFOEdit. DvdAuthor.exe, I think, gets it wrong even when I edit the control xml and specify the video resolution.

Where sup format was a problem in DAG, I wound up using sst format (a text file listing bitmaps for each subtitle), but the jist of it was the same, full D1 over 352x240. It's a bit of a process using a few different tools, but I'll lay it out if you like. Incidentaly, Muxman accepts sst format as well.

[nbarzgar]

Funny, someone else was asking a similar question a few days ago. https://forum.videohelp.com/topic330674.html#1711345

I didn't find this post, I searched the forum for "mpeg1" and "subtitles"...this one mentions subpictures... Thanks for the hint. Anyway, it seems one has to play around a bit to find the right settings for the file + subs. That it is possible to use different formats of subs (text-based+time-code, bmp-based, bmp-based+initial formatting and adjustments in the authoring app...) I know quite well, but the postion combined with the resolution is the real problem. If one could preview subs "as if authored" it would be great!
I tried DVDSubEdit, as it is supposed to enable editing of subs in the final DVD-structure, but with DVD and mpeg1-file it just crashed on me evrytime I tried...

I ended up encoding to Full D1, since, try as I might, I just did not get the right size for the subs+mpeg1-file to display correctly on either software-player or standalone.

If anyone has got/found a solution for this, I would be really very much interested!

[Bjs]

A way of getting it perfect is to convert from mpeg to mpeg2 ... a recent test

Storm trooper clip from my space > super convert flv to mpeg2 at 352 x 288, 25fps, plus ac3 .
Vobedit to demux streams .
Visualsubsync, new project, demux wav, load vid, get on with generating new subtitle (srt) .
Dvdauthorgui, add clip (m2v), audio (ac3), subtitle (leave defaults), author to folder .
Ifoedit to correct mistakes with video format in both ifo's .

Subs came out perfect and as funny as hell .

I even tried various audio formats with mpeg1 video stream, plus srt, and they all end up out of whack , but the subs remained in the same location every time .

[AlanHK]

A way of getting it perfect is to convert from mpeg to mpeg2

Perfect? How can you transcode with no loss?

I prefer to leave the video as-is and hack the subtitle. (Edit the Sup with DVDSubedit.)

Anyway, whatever works for you.

[nbarzgar]

I tried DVDSubEdit, as it is supposed to enable editing of subs in the final DVD-structure, but with DVD and mpeg1-file it just crashed on me evrytime I tried...

I tried it... Did not work for me, and I had used DVDlab Pro and PgcEdit... before trying to use DVDSubEdit.

Technically, there is always loss when re-encoding takes place, BUT depending on the quality of the source and the re-encoding process, it quite easily may be that the result looks still great on the TV-screen. One would have to decide each case seperately, if re-encoding makes sense.

Well, so we still have no solution for the original problem...

[AlanHK]

Well, so we still have no solution for the original problem...

Mine works "perfectly":
MPEG1 video, convert audio to 48k, make sup with SubtitleCreator, adjust with DVDSubedit (probably not necessary if you get the right parameters when making the SUP), build in GfD.

[nbarzgar]

Well, it doesn't for me, unfortunately... I tried more than once...!

[nbarzgar]

Thanks for the suggestion, but it seems to be a one-click solution (more or less) that would automatically convert the mpeg1 to mpeg2. Since I know well, how to do that with freeware and AviSynth - retaining high quality - I would rather have authored a DVD with the mpeg1-file untouched (s.a.).
8)

[Bjs]

Success , but what a pain in the ... you know where .

Got bbmpeg to output vcd spec mpeg1 video stream first .
Then audio converted to 48khz ac3 .

The subtitle gave me the ... headache , nothing was specific enough , nor accurate as you have found .
But remember , thats using pc playback programs which in themselves may showup inaccuracies which dont exist .

----

New subtitle shows seconds (counter style) as video plays back for measuring accuracy of timing .

New subtitle created using visualsubsync , perfect , but same issue when dvdauthorgui output files .
Corrected issues in ifos with ifoedit did not fix problem .
Original output from dvdauthorgui deleted .

Change plans .

Subtitle from visualsubsync loaded into subtitleworkshop , change setting to show frame based only for subtitles .
Saved out , but even after ifoedit fixups , same problem appeared .
Deleted output from dvdauthorgui again .

Change plans .

Open stupid subtitle in notepad , and manually adjust subtitle timings to specific / accurate times ... subtitleworkshop had some funny ideas about 100's of a second which caused inaccuracies .

Author again from dvdauthorgui (complains about aspect in log)
Fix up issues with ifos related to video specs , audio specs , sub specs , save both ifos .
Perfect sync this time round .

Neroshowtime showed subs spot on , but later subs appear to play half second ahead .
Windvd was smack on time .
Windows media player - I must have broken it , no subs show .
Koolplay , same deal .
Avs dvd player , shows subs 1 second early .

----

Note :Lpcm audio streams - untested .

24 hour experiment now perfected .

----

Test burn in progress ...

Lets see what my dvd player thinks ???

Well , what do you know , its perfectly timed all the way.

[DereX888]

I have been trying to author a DVD-compliant mpeg1-file (PAL, 352x288) - taken from a TMPGEnc-XVCD (=> variable bitrate) - to DVD, and add subs ...

I tried DVDAuthorGUI, GfD, DVDlab Pro, muxman. They author nicely, but the subs are way out of a reasonable position everytime. Either they are not there at all, or they are there, but barely discernible on the bottom edge of the video. If I change the position in the authoring app, (or the subs themselves, using .sup-file, created with SubtitleCreator) they end up in the middle of the picture...

Does this mean, since it is mpeg1 at 352x288, subs just will never be quite right, because of the overlay-character subs have as stream in the DVD-structure? Or do I miss a point?

Please help someone! I am at my wit's end!!

Try playback on different dvd player first.
I remember having a player that did exactly same thing, but playback on other players was normal.
Im not sure, but it all depends on the decoding chipset's abilities.
I dont know exactly the procedure the chipsets go through, but I can imagine it may be a problem if goes like <apply subtitle overlay; resize to 720x576; output to tv> instead of <resize 352x288 to 720x576; apply subtitle overlay; output to tv> if you know what I mean.
Also, if youre in NTSC world and displaying PAL picture on a NTSC tv, the players do many weird things to "convert" PAL to NTSC on the fly.
With DVD-specs PAL to NTSC on the fly its not as much distorted as with smaller resolutions when theyre PAL<>NTSC converted.
I remember having one of the early dvd players that was cutting about 25% of the picture when PAL VCD was played on NTSC old analog tv through RCA connectors.

I'd say there is nothing wrong with your dvd authoring methods probably.
Its in the player.

[nbarzgar]

@Bjs:
Thanks for this long post, but I was rather talking about problems in positioning subs, not their timing.

@DereX888:
Quite what I have been thinking, a "resize" problem of the player. Albeit the problem is there on software- as well as standalone-player... EDIT: (It's PAL over here...) EDIT

At the moment I have no access to another standalone model. Perhabs I will try that next time. For the time being I have given up and re-encoded the files to mepg2, Full D1.

[Bjs]

Well , all I can think of was you made adjustment in dvdauthorgui's subtitle setup to the positioning of the subtitle to reflect non full d1 res video ... I left that alone .

But ... because the video width is smaller , so the subtitles must be shorter , otherwise they stretch right across the screen and appear to be cut off at both ends .

I use this info when using mpeg2 at 352x288 .

By using both notes , there are perfectly positioned every time ... only there timing is an issue ... which is why I thought to go a bit deeper into actually using an mpeg stream designed for vcd , as many have asked and not found information about the correct proceedure .

[nbarzgar]

Well , all I can think of was you made adjustment in dvdauthorgui's subtitle setup to the positioning of the subtitle to reflect non full d1 res video ... I left that alone .

You may want to read my 3rd post on the details of procedures I tried without success.

I don't think the timing problem is in any way connected to positioning of subtitles, since in playing a DVD those two things are (as well as in the authoring process) entirely independent of each other. Otherwise any wrong positioning of subs would result in the subs being out of sync, and I have yet to see something like that; I have been authoring DVDs for about 4 years now, average output about 6 pcs. per month.

Thanks anyway, all of you!

[EddyH]

if it makes any odds and i haven't blanked over someone saying the same thing already...

i've just been browsing some dvdauthor (etc) docs that suggest when adding the subs you have to specify the resolution of the subpicture images (ie the subtitles) to match with the actual video resolution... or at least, it must be the same size or less, and have suitable positioning information to locate the subpicture within the video overlay, and some players like to have a SP that's 2 or 4 pixels shorter than the video image (probably 1 or 2 for CIF, as it's not interlaced)

so it could be you've defined them as too big and the player's doing the best job it can with what it's been given, or the subpictures have been over magnified during the cutting-down process, or ....???

any use?

(i'm busy confusing myself to a very high level at the moment trying to learn how to author a multi-VTS disc with about 50 different video clips, of all different resolutions, aspects, standards and audio contingents, into several categories depending instead on what the content is rather than the technical detail, and not have it crash a standalone player / get lost in dummy menus... arrrgh... but that's how i came across the subtitles thing, and why my understanding of it may be scrambled)

[nbarzgar]

Thanks, this suggestion has been made, but I also acted on the idea before posting, as it occurred to me, the actual size of video and corresponding SP is crucial. I have yet to find the correct measurements for this type of problem: mpeg1 res 352x288 (PAL) and subs that fit the video-image, when displayed...

Of course (s.a.) one would expect subs - since they will be shown as overlay-image of the respective video-stream - would either

1. have to be the same size as the video-frame, since both get enlarged during playback OR

2. have to be the target size of the enlarged respective video-stream, i.e. always 720x576/480 (PAL/NTSC).

BUT both ways of encoding didn't work for me, in several DVD authoring apps. So I presume (s.a.) that the subs as overlayed image in the final DVD structure may actually (with 352x756 video-resolution) be enlarged only to 'such and such' an extend, i.e. percentage of the video-image.... which...is...?

[EddyH]

*head swims*
*grasps at straws*

... did you try 352 x 286 at all?

[Bjs]

Dvdauthorgui indicates all went well , but no other tool can detect the subtitle stream exists when sub is used .
Srt fine .

I'll have another plug at it tomorrow .

[GTRBudda]

Since I've never used mpeg1/m1v for a DVD before, and since my approach seems a bit different than others I've seen, I thought I'd try the experiment myself and post the results.

For authoring with DvdAuthorGui, I started with a short video converted to mpeg1 at 352x240 with TMPGEnc (wizard mode) and demuxed to m1v. The sound, converted to ac3, was a song, so the subs could come from the lyrics (easier to set/check timing).

The subtitle tools/process was:
Subtitle Workshop - for the lyrics text to srt format
VisualSubSync - to set the timing in the srt file
Subtitles Creator - (from here: http://www.dvd-logic.com) to convert the srt file to sst with bitmap subpics at 720x480, 4bpp. It's sort of like MaestroSBT, which I normaly use, but without all the features. Also lets you set any choice of colors, more or less.
IrfanView - to batch convert the bitmaps to png.
Command prompt - the sst file from Subtitles Creator wouldn't open in Subtitle Workshop so..... I went around it. I opened the command prompt on the bitmap folder and entered "dir /ON /B *.png > subpics.txt" (no quotes), to get a text list of the png files.
Subtitle Workshop - (again) The goal here is to make an xml file to use with DvdAuthorGui (specificly spumux.exe in the DAG/bin folder). First, make a config file for custom formats (the xml file that's needed). Copy/paste this to a text file and name it "Xml.cfp" or the like,

<subpictures>
	<stream>
{RepeatSub}
		<spu image="{swText}" start="{swStart}" end="{swEnd}" transparent="000000" xoffset="0" yoffset="0" />
{EndRepeat}
	</stream>
</subpictures>

and move it to the CustomFormats folder in with Subtitle Workshop. The line "<spu..../>" should be all one line. The part that says transparent="000000" needs to be changed to the transparent background color you choose. For this I had "040204", YMMV. Next, in Subtitle Workshop still, open the text list of png files. Do "Edit->Timings->Read timings from file" and use the timings from the srt file. Next, do Find and Replace and change all the png file names to the full path and name, in other words, change 00000001.png to c:\path\to\subpics\folder\00000001.png. Last, use Save as, click the custom formats button, click Load Project and select your Xml.cfp file, then Save! and name it sub1-1 (the name that DvdAuthorGui will generate for the 1st subtitle xml file in a project). That's it for making the subpics/xml file.

In DvdAuthorGui, author as you normaly would, but first set "File->edit xml before aurthoring". For the subtitles, add in the srt file. It won't actualy be used, but it sets up the process to expect subtitles. Once you get to the point where you hit the big "author dvd" button and name the folder, you'll get the xml editor. Weather you edit the xml or not, when you close the editor, click Yes for save changes and No for Proceed with authoring. At this point, you can close DvdAuthorGui.

The last part is open the DvdAuthorGui folder, and replace the "sub1-1.xml" file with the one from Subtitle Workshop, and run the "process.bat" file directly. When the process is complete, and after reseting the resolution in IFOEdit, the results were A-OK.... mostly

What I mean by 'mostly' is that in Media Player Classic, VLC and Mplayer, the subtitles aren't visible, probably resized and hidden below/outside the video window (I'm guessing. It's the same with mpeg2 as well. Perhaps the solution there is to to use two subpic streams, one for stand alone players and one for software players). DVDSubEdit didn't exactly crash but wasn't usable to see the subpics, though Subrip had no problem "seeing" them. BUT, burning to dvd-rw and playing in my stand alone worked just fine. The subs were in the place I put them and in the colors I wanted. Also, though it was only about five minutes long, the timing was dead on.

Of coarse, all the extra gyrations described above are probably not necessary if you can just use a sup file. At a point when I needed subtitles over a few different 352x240 dvd projects, I was having a bear of a time making and using sup format. I worked out this sort of primitive/manual approach as an alternative and I've been very pleased with the rtesults so far. Hopefully someone else will find it useful.