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  1. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    Ubuntu for example forms a boot menu, don't know enough to know if its just a "grub" gui

    There are freeware boot partiton softwares that are windows based.
    Also,
    I've had good experience with system commander for example ($29).

    This seems to be much hotter than any VIDEO topic, perhaps we should have a VIDEO HELP GEEKVILLE subsection
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  2. Member lacywest's Avatar
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    GetDataBack for NTFS ... works for me ... when I need to rescue a Hard drive.
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  3. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    He recovered the data..lacy west..you should've read his post before posting
    its the last on page 1: Active File recovery worked for him
    Now he's asking how to do linux without refried windows
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  4. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Ubuntu is a Linux distro I tried in the past and it did install without issues but it also installs GRUB and while this is a nice idea ... I guess I am a bit leery of doing that.

    Now my BIOS supports a feature where I can put HDD 1 as the first bootable HDD with HDD 2 behind it or I can put HDD 2 first with HDD 1 behind it.

    So I figure if I have WinXP Pro on HDD 1 and LINUX on HDD2 I just have to change the boot order in my BIOS to "choose" which I want.

    I'm assuming if HDD 2 with LINUX is first in the bootable order that LINUX will boot and if HDD 1 with WinXP Pro is first in the bootable order that WinXP Pro will boot.

    So if that is true ... I don't have to use GRUB or some such similar thing.

    Or am I simply being paranoid?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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  5. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    I'm assuming if HDD 2 with LINUX is first in the bootable order that LINUX will boot and if HDD 1 with WinXP Pro is first in the bootable order that WinXP Pro will boot.

    So if that is true ... I don't have to use GRUB or some such similar thing.
    You do need grub, lilo, or another Linux bootloader, to boot Linux, but you can put it on the secondary disc.

    See http://enterprise.linux.com/article.pl?sid=05/02/16/1919205&tid=129&tid=49 for how to use the Windows bootloader to select the boot drive/OS.
    Obviously MS designed it to choose between different Windows installs, but you can also add Linux.

    ... So I installed and set up a new second drive, then installed Fedora Core 3 in the standard manner. When the installer asked what drive to use, I chose the second IDE drive, hdb. The other key step was to make sure the installer did not install a Linux boot loader on the primary hard drive. While having the installed do this is generally the recommended method of installing a dual-boot Linux/Windows system, I didn't want to do it because of my goal of minimizing changes to the Windows disk.

    The Windows bootloader (NTLDR) can be configured to boot Linux partitions, so I decided to use it as the primary bootloader....
    When you boot you get a simple text menu. If you leave it, after a few seconds it boots to the default OS. You can change the "timeout" value just by editing the file boot.ini on your boot drive.
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  6. I would highly recommend any secondary OS install be done with primary OS drive removed.

    Using boot order in BIOS may not be elegant or "civilized", but it is safe, simple, and effective. No need to mess with boot records on drives, and therefore no danger of repeating both your and Videocheez's disastrous failure.

    Power went out during process? Did you break a mirror, or piss off a Voodoo priest? Can I buy life insurance on you? And where is your UPS, mister?
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  7. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nelson37
    I would highly recommend any secondary OS install be done with primary OS drive removed.

    Using boot order in BIOS may not be elegant or "civilized", but it is safe, simple, and effective. No need to mess with boot records on drives, and therefore no danger of repeating both your and Videocheez's disastrous failure.

    Power went out during process? Did you break a mirror, or piss off a Voodoo priest? Can I buy life insurance on you? And where is your UPS, mister?
    I have a UPS but the battery is drained so it doesn't work ... basically just an expensive power strip now LOL

    I might try what AlanHK suggested.

    If I remove the HDD with Windows XP Pro on it when I install Linux to the 2nd HDD then won't the DRIVE LETTERING get all screwed up?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  8. The drive lettering happens AFTER the install, when you boot. Once install is finished, reconnect XP drive. Lettering should not change, when you select boot order this does not affect lettering.

    You may have heard an expression similar to "there are OLD pilots, and there are BOLD pilots, but there are no OLD, BOLD pilots." I know lots of techs who have been in business for many years. Most have used Boot loader progs like system commander or partition magic at one time or another. The experienced ones who are still in business avoid such programs at all costs, and find another way. This is because they ALL, sooner or later, have an experience similar to yours, with a paying customer's data at risk. Using Boot order is BETTER because there is LESS RISK. Modifying the boot record is BAD because there is MORE RISK.
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  9. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    as a user of System Commander, I agree
    If you can forgo the pretty menu, but still boot easily to either...go for it

    Also..I find outta 16 installs of System Commander 7.05, I've only been bitten 3x, but the program wouldn't re-install to fix itself so I hadda trash 1 of the 2 os's in these three cases (as Nelson suggests, other than a windows boot screen, thried party may just go south!)
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  10. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Well both drives are SATA drives so if I want to install LINUX on the 2nd HDD all I have to do is disconnect the SATA cable of the first SATA HDD (which has my new fresh WinXP Pro install on it) from the motherboard ... correct?

    Then after I install LINUX turn off the computer (don't let it reboot) and plug my first SATA HDD back into the motherboard THEN reboot?

    BTW I finally finished doing the scan again with Active@ File Recovery and got ALL of my data back so all is well that ends well.

    Now I have have to sort through it all and delete some stuff and move stuff to where I want it on the new HDD (I pretty much just copied every from the old HDD to a single folder on the new HDD) and I am all done.

    Again a big thanks to all that chimed in on all of this!

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  11. The other problem with having more than one OS and using something like Grub is if you have to do a repair or re-install of a OS it will most likely wipe out grub, then you have to repair Grub too. Pain in the neck. Just use the Bios boot management. F8 on Asus Motherboards for example. Others you have to go into the Bios and change the settings. I suspect that will get old quick.
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  12. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    If I remove the HDD with Windows XP Pro on it when I install Linux to the 2nd HDD then won't the DRIVE LETTERING get all screwed up?
    Linux doesn't care about drive letters, and Windows will keep the boot drive as C:

    But I think the method I linked to is pretty safe. When installing Linux, just pay attention when it asks you about where to put the bootloader.

    Even if you overwrite the MBR, that's trivial to repair, and installing Linux on another hard disk won't touch any other part of the primary drive.
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  13. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    Just use the Bios boot management. F8 on Asus Motherboards for example. Others you have to go into the Bios and change the settings. I suspect that will get old quick.
    Actually that may be the best method, if it works.

    A couple of years ago I plugged in a second hard disk I had installed Linux on earlier. I was expecting to have to set up a new bootloader, but the BIOS recognised it was bootable and gave me its own screen to choose which hard disk to boot. I never found any documentation on this though, and it isn't in my current BIOS. I suspect the OEMs didn't want to piss off MS by making it too easy to install an alternate OS, so this function may be in your BIOS, unadvertised.
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  14. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nelson37
    Modifying the boot record is BAD because there is MORE RISK.
    It's trivial to restore a boot record. Most of the problems people have are Windows deciding to do it and losing access to a Linux system till you fix it. It's slightly annoying, but no "RISK".

    Problems can occur when repartitioning a hard disk. That can get messy. But we're talking about separate physical disks.
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  15. Member ranchhand's Avatar
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    The power of Knoppix is that you do not need to install it on a HD; it loads straight from the DVD into memory and by-passes the harddrive entirely. Then it reads whatever OS is on the drive without loading that OS. So I go into corrupted/trashed drives fairly often, pull off the data and burn to a disk, or drag & drop onto a flash drive. Free for download.
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  16. Ask Fulci and VideoCheez if it is Trivial, and with No Risk. For crying out loud, have you read this thread? Does finding, using Data Recovery software over a 24-hour period with ALL data possibly gone sound Trivial, No Risk?

    In BOTH cases this week it was LINUX which caused the problem, not Windows.

    BIOS boot order is present in most modern boards. It is documented in every manual for every board with this feature. Not so complicated as to require much detailed explanation.

    BIOS detects drives, not boot ability. More than one drive, more than one choice. You are free to choose a drive that does not boot, BIOS will just go on to the next device and boot from that.

    I really wonder what some people are smoking. It must be good stuff.

    I can not comprehend how anybody with the brains God gave a walnut could make such a statement.

    Messing with the MBR or Partition Table is a BAD THING. Wiping out all data or loosing the ability to boot is a BAD THING. Installing a program which causes this condition is a BAD THING. Any Questions?
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    simple answer no it has never messed up any of my hdds... never ever never... although windows has messed it up & i primarily use windows im not a linux fanboy... i got the ntldr message once a few years ago & had never used linux... linux stability is a proven... in other words why have u installed windows a hundred or so times?... i have installed my xp copy so many times that i had to call microsoft to get a new key (there is windows stability).... linux has problems admittedly but its not with stability or security... their problems deal more with support (or lack of) & programs that work with it (but the underlying problem in this area is the manufacturers not making them work)... case in point, i have a linux system thats been up for 3 years continuously 24x7 (barring power loss)... another area of annoyance in linux is multimedia problems... but their are work arounds for those... the last area i can think of in linux problems is gaming & i dont game any more so thats a problem i dont have
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    there are several distros that dont even have to have a cd in to run the os, much less the hdd to install it to... DSL comes to mind frenzy i think is another, altho it may be just a live cd (knoppix based with good diagnostics utilitys which is what it was designed for)
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    nelson37 : BIOS detects drives, not boot ability. More than one drive, more than one choice. You are free to choose a drive that does not boot, BIOS will just go on to the next device and boot from that






    not exactly, bios (basic input output system) gives addresses to components in a computer through gates, in laymens terms it tells a processor its a processor, a drive its a drive, an ide port its an ide port, checks ram, then it tells these components what to initially do (processor to look for hdd0 for an os it can boot from etc.)
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  20. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nelson37
    Ask Fulci and VideoCheez if it is Trivial, and with No Risk. For crying out loud, have you read this thread? Does finding, using Data Recovery software over a 24-hour period with ALL data possibly gone sound Trivial, No Risk?
    Did you read my message? Apparently not.
    Fulci repartitioned a live drive. That was "risky". That's why he (almost) lost his data. You'll get a bunch of warnings and admonitions to backup everything before you do that.
    Installing Linux on a second physical drive is almost zero risk compared to that.
    That's what my post was about.

    Originally Posted by Nelson37
    Messing with the MBR or Partition Table is a BAD THING. Wiping out all data or loosing the ability to boot is a BAD THING. Installing a program which causes this condition is a BAD THING. Any Questions?
    These problems are due to repartitioning, not installing Linux per se.
    Installing on a second drive avoids these potential problems.
    Do you think WRITING IN CAPITALS makes you seem more authoritative?
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  21. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    I installed PCLinuxOS 2007 to the second HDD and put the bootloader there so nothing touched my first HDD (the one with my WinXP Pro install on it).

    So in reality all I really have to do is select the second HDD as the boot drive and I can use GRUB to select LINUX or WINDOWS.

    However I am having issues with my Nvidia card under PCLinuxOS 2007 *sigh* but that is an issue for another thread I suppose LOL

    Thanks again everyone !!!

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman

    P.S.
    I now consider this thread to be over ... the issue is now RESOLVED.
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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  22. Member
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    there are linux drivers for nvidia
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    btw congratz on the install & recovery
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  24. I have a UPS but the battery is drained so it doesn't work ... basically just an expensive power strip now LOL
    Hey, just replace the battery, if nothings broke it will be a UPS again

    Forget the battery that costs more than a new UPS and only runs 20minutes, get a nice SLA or Gell Cell deepcycle, like 115amps, run that bugger for a day or so when power goes out, not 10 minutes
    Connect new battery with correct sized wire for the load and fuse it also.

    If it's a quality UPS like a good APC of decent size no problem and you can cold start it, start it up when grid is not present. At aleast most of them. I do it all the time!
    Great little cheap inverters for use out in the woods or motorhome when no AC power is available.

    Just make sure you use the correct voltage, 12V or series 2 for 24V or 4 for 48V for the big stuff! I got lots of 24V and 2 48V monsters around here I use.
    Nothing like having 5K sinewave power on hand when rest of nieghborhood goes down, and they wonder why my flood lights are still lighting up the sky and my lathe is running and no generator
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  25. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by overloaded_ide
    I have a UPS but the battery is drained so it doesn't work ... basically just an expensive power strip now LOL
    Hey, just replace the battery, if nothings broke it will be a UPS again

    Forget the battery that costs more than a new UPS and only runs 20minutes, get a nice SLA or Gell Cell deepcycle, like 115amps, run that bugger for a day or so when power goes out, not 10 minutes
    Connect new battery with correct sized wire for the load and fuse it also.

    If it's a quality UPS like a good APC of decent size no problem and you can cold start it, start it up when grid is not present. At aleast most of them. I do it all the time!
    Great little cheap inverters for use out in the woods or motorhome when no AC power is available.

    Just make sure you use the correct voltage, 12V or series 2 for 24V or 4 for 48V for the big stuff! I got lots of 24V and 2 48V monsters around here I use.
    Nothing like having 5K sinewave power on hand when rest of nieghborhood goes down, and they wonder why my flood lights are still lighting up the sky and my lathe is running and no generator
    The unit I have is an APC BACK-UPS ES 350 (aka 350U) that I bought in December of 2004 and it is this huge power strip looking thing and I guess it is SO big because of the battery it takes.

    So can you be more specific as to what battery I can use instead and what modification (if any) that has to be done to it?

    According to the APC WEBSITE I need the following battery: CLICK HERE

    I wonder if I should just buy a new more powerful model instead?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  26. Cost of battery plus shipping usually not worth it. The battery is extremely similar to a small motorcycle battery. New UPS that model as cheap as $39.95 on sale, more wattage over minimum need just means more minutes for more dollars. Long enough to save and shutdown is all you need. Just snagged a 1200 Watt for $79.95, got that on the TV. One only on the sale table and I grabbed it and boogied.

    Also older UPS, the nano-second switches and surge circutry is worn, perhaps not up to snuff, better than nothing but generally not worth spending much to repair.

    To the original issue. Ain't having BIOS school, or splitting hairs. Linux install, in this case With and the other case Without, repartion, both cases Linux "messed with" MBR, both cases bootability and this case access of any kind were lost. I say BAD THING in caps because I would be shouting at someone in front of me calling these problems "trivial". Such a conversation takes place in front of one of my clients, I would tell you to get the hell out. And take this crap with you, I don't care if you don't like it.

    Now if it was mission-critical software that is not replacable, you find a workaround and bust ass to find a substitute. For the latest Super-Whizzo 3000, it's just Thanks, but No Thanks.

    I just don't get it.

    Install clean on second physical drive is exactly what I recommended to do.
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  27. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nelson37
    To the original issue...
    Leave it alone. Stop misrepresenting me.
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  28. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Well I ended up installing Ubuntu 7.04 Feisty Dawn because PCLinuxOS 2007 was pissing me off.

    Ubuntu had no issues with recognizing my LCD monitor (including knowing what model it was) nor did I have to do much to get my Nvidia card working correctly.

    Had a bit of an issue getting proper DVD playback ... was slightly "stuttering" at first ... but I followed some different directions than the original directions on what needed to be installed and now playback is baby smooth as it should be. XviD and DivX also seem to be playing back A-OK.

    I still am having one minor issue though in regards to GRUB:

    When I installed Ubuntu 7.04 in the advanced section of the install I could install GRUB to (HD0) or (HD1) so I did (HD1) thinking that was the 2nd HDD (the one with the Ubuntu install on it).

    Well GRUB is on the 2nd HDD so when I set my BIOS to the 1st HDD I get WinXP Pro automatically since that is all that is on that HDD.

    If I set the BIOS to the 2nd HDD then GRUB comes up. However the settings were wrong. It wanted to use (HD1,1) and I had to edit it (thanks to a great GRUB article linked from the Ubuntu documentation) to make it (HD0,1) and now Ubuntu loads BUT ...

    When I try to pick WinXP Pro from the GRUB list it won't load. I've tried editing it with every combo I can think of like HD(1,1) ... HD(1,0) ... etc. but I can't seem to find the correct setting.

    If I can get that to work (edit it correctly) then I can just set the BIOS to the 2nd HDD and use GRUB to pick. At least GRUB isn't on my Windows drive.

    But for now I have to use the BIOS to change ... the original idea ... but it does kinda suck this way LOL

    So again to make it clear:

    1st HDD is WinXP Pro
    2nd HDD is Ubuntu and GRUB

    GRUB works to select Linux but not for selecting WinXP Pro so I have to change the boot order of the drives in the BIOS. I want to make GRUB load WinXP Pro so I don't have to fiddle with the BIOS change all the time and just let the drive with GRUB be the boot drive all the time.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  29. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    I still am having one minor issue though in regards to GRUB
    My guess is that setting second disk as boot in BIOS makes it the C: drive, so the WinXP disk is now D:
    But it expects to be on C:.

    Does it give any error message at all, or just freeze?

    Anyway, perhaps you can look at the article I linked earlier using boot.ini on the XP drive to select OS.
    You could use that to select OS without changing BIOS.
    Copy one file from the Linux disk and add one line to boot.ini.
    Grub would be set to boot direct to Linux.
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    I am also having problem with corrupted drive right now. Just like that 1 day I turn it on and found error NTLDR is missing. Unfortunately I have some bad sectors and clicking noises on this drive and so far nothing works. That is 40GB laptop drive and I have just bought a adapter on eBay, so I can put it in my desktop as a slave and see if I can use any recovery data tool.
    I found this document on the net.

    200ways.pdf
    moved to another forum, nobody likes me here...
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