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  1. Member
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    Hi everyone, I was wondering if you know of a program that can encode HDV footage into DV format because my editing program doesn't read HDV video.

    Do you know if that conversion loose quality?
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  2. I'm a MEGA Super Moderator Baldrick's Avatar
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    Yes, you will lose video quality. Maybe time to switch to new editing program?
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    Originally Posted by Baldrick
    Yes, you will lose video quality. Maybe time to switch to new editing program?

    hum... you're right its common sense huh?

    the reason I asked was because I had installed a demo version of Pinnacle Studio that supports HDV, but the preview window didn't play DV video, it was like all these lines and distortions while the older program that I have worked fine; the program is designed for HD but it supports DV.

    do you know if thats a computer problem, or software? ...do you recommend another prgram thats supports the format?
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  4. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by video_enthusiast07
    Originally Posted by Baldrick
    Yes, you will lose video quality. Maybe time to switch to new editing program?

    hum... you're right its common sense huh?

    the reason I asked was because I had installed a demo version of Pinnacle Studio that supports HDV, but the preview window didn't play DV video, it was like all these lines and distortions while the older program that I have worked fine; the program is designed for HD but it supports DV.

    do you know if thats a computer problem, or software? ...do you recommend another prgram thats supports the format?
    Are you trying to edit HDV or DV? Set the project to the format and everything else gets converted to that.

    Explain more what you are trying to do. Also ID your camcorder model.
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by video_enthusiast07
    Originally Posted by Baldrick
    Yes, you will lose video quality. Maybe time to switch to new editing program?

    hum... you're right its common sense huh?

    the reason I asked was because I had installed a demo version of Pinnacle Studio that supports HDV, but the preview window didn't play DV video, it was like all these lines and distortions while the older program that I have worked fine; the program is designed for HD but it supports DV.

    do you know if thats a computer problem, or software? ...do you recommend another prgram thats supports the format?
    Are you trying to edit HDV or DV? Set the project to the format and everything else gets converted to that.

    Explain more what you are trying to do. Also ID your camcorder model.


    I'm trying to make a movie using HD Video format since it seems like it has better color than DV format.

    I want to find a program that edits HDV footage but can burn it to a regular DVD, the reason for that is because in the end conversion I suppose that the down converted HD video will look better on the DVD than the down converted DV in the end. I know that I can't experience true HD video quality on a regular DVD since the disc isn't made for that right, but Im stuck with the idea that HDV video might look better than DV video when burned to a DVD.


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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Which camcorder? Or what is your source for HDV?
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Which camcorder?
    Its the Sony FX 7 camcorder.
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Pinnacle studio isn't in that class. You should be looking higher in the Pinnacle, Adobe, Sony or ULead lines.

    You can import HDV into a DV or HDV project. If most of your video is DV or SD, I'd use a DV project format that matches DVD 720x480 resolution. Why upscale 720x480 to 1440x1080 only to downscale again.

    If most of your video is HDV source, you can edit HDV project format, save the High Def version of the edit back to tape and encode MPeg2 for DVD at 720x480. Most HDV camcorders will hardware downscale HDV to DV saving you many ours of downscale computation if you are in a hurry.
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Pinnacle studio isn't in that class. You should be looking higher in the Pinnacle, Adobe, Sony or ULead lines.

    You can import HDV into a DV or HDV project. If most of your video is DV or SD, I'd use a DV project format that matches DVD 720x480 resolution. Why upscale 720x480 to 1440x1080 only to downscale again.

    If most of your video is HDV source, you can edit HDV project format, save the High Def version of the edit back to tape and encode MPeg2 for DVD at 720x480. Most HDV camcorders will hardware downscale HDV to DV saving you many ours of downscale computation if you are in a hurry.

    hummm..... personally what specific program do you recommend?
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I use Vegas for HDV now. I find Vegas most efficient and flexible for general use.

    I'm considering Premiere Pro CS3 for more structured HD multiformat projects. I have over a decade experience with Premiere but find it less efficient for general use than Vegas.

    If I were editing Hollywood movies I'd probably be using AVID.
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  11. Member slacker's Avatar
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    You have a Sony FX7? Why not Sony Vegas+DVD Architect or Sony Movie Studio for maximum compatibility and minimum headaches? Do you have a kid in school? Sony Vegas=DVD Architect is only $279.00.
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  12. Member maek's Avatar
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    I have a Canon HV20 and I'm wondering if I should shoot my projects in HDV or DV. Ultimately, the footage winds up on a standard DVD. I use Sony Vegas Pro 8 for editing, rendering, and burning.

    So here is what I've "heard":

    1. I've read that the colorspace on DV is better than HDV (4:1:1 versus 4:2:0).
    2. I've also read that motion rendering is better in DV (DV-AVI) than HDV (M2TS - 25 MBPS MPEG-2) because HDV relies on INTERframe compression while DV relies on INTRAframe compression.

    Are either of these true? If not, then what's everyone's opinion on this matter? I keep coming across conflicting views and I know if anyone can straighten me out on this, it's this board.
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  13. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    I think a higher res source (1440x1080) will yield a higher quality target (720x480). You can also stabilize your footage better if your source has bigger dimensions:

    1440x1080 --- > Deshaker ---> Crop ----> 1280x720
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  14. Member racer-x's Avatar
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    Soopafresh is right. I have the HV20 and this is what I do:

    Shoot and capture to HDV. Edit native m2t and export back to m2t using smart render. The quality is very good. I then archive the edited m2t for future purposes. I also convert the edited m2t to lot's of different formats like SD DVD, Blu-Ray compatible h.264 and whatever I need. The converted DVD looks much better than any DV source I've produced in the past or any DV source I've seen yet..............
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  15. Member maek's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info!

    However, is there a good way to resolve the motion rendering issue? I can actually see it in fairly mobile shots where there is a slight "stutter" to the image. Although it's slight, it's obvious to me and I would like to take care of it, if possible.

    Is there a Vegas Pro 8 fix?
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    just a guess...but the pinnacle studio probably needs patches and updates to handle the HDV like the little videostudio 11+ ( around $30 on ebay)

    motion rendering issue?
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  17. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    However, is there a good way to resolve the motion rendering issue? I can actually see it in fairly mobile shots where there is a slight "stutter" to the image. Although it's slight, it's obvious to me and I would like to take care of it, if possible.

    A lot of that has to do with shooting in 24p Cine mode and doing fast pans. It's the same even on the $20K RED camera. edDV has a lot of info on the subject.

    There are ways of reducing that problem in post, but the best idea is to pan slowly. If you absolutely MUST fix your footage (and you have the $330) a product called Twixtor will fix panning flickering.

    norm-original.avi
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  18. Member maek's Avatar
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    Actually, I'm shooting in regular 1080/60i mode. I'm aware of the issues of 24p and I don't film in that for good reason. I'm sure that it's dynamite with controlled shots, but shooting a 4-year old is problematic at best.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but I'm referring to the artifacting that occurs if something moves quickly on screen. I don't see it on the DV footage, though, so I'm assuming that it's a result of the MPEG-2 compression inherent with the HDV footage.

    Is there an easy way to fix this in post, similar to how motion blur is incorporated on animated effects in Vegas? Is there something in Vegas that can do it, even if it's a plug-in?

    Thanks again.
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  19. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    Upload a sample. I uploaded a fast pan in 30p mode just above. I'm thinking there must be a way to do it in Avisynth. I just don't know the proposed method.
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  20. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by maek
    So here is what I've "heard":

    1. I've read that the colorspace on DV is better than HDV (4:1:1 versus 4:2:0).
    2. I've also read that motion rendering is better in DV (DV-AVI) than HDV (M2TS - 25 MBPS MPEG-2) because HDV relies on INTERframe compression while DV relies on INTRAframe compression.

    Are either of these true? If not, then what's everyone's opinion on this matter? I keep coming across conflicting views and I know if anyone can straighten me out on this, it's this board.
    Originally Posted by maek
    Actually, I'm shooting in regular 1080/60i mode. I'm aware of the issues of 24p and I don't film in that for good reason. I'm sure that it's dynamite with controlled shots, but shooting a 4-year old is problematic at best.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but I'm referring to the artifacting that occurs if something moves quickly on screen. I don't see it on the DV footage, though, so I'm assuming that it's a result of the MPEG-2 compression inherent with the HDV footage.
    In practical use, 4:1:1 vs. 4:2:0 isn't a major factor unless one decodes and recodes multiple times. 4:1:1 can go more generations.

    DV is 720x480i. It records with self contained frames (e.g. no interframe motion compression)*.

    HDV MPeg2 records 1440x1080i but with a full frame every 15 frames (12 PAL) and change data between. The motion estimation required for motion compression is lossy.

    Both encode to 25Mb/s, so the trade off is frame resolution vs. motion accuracy (or motion artifacts).


    *DV compresses in frame only using DCT (similar to JPeg)
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  21. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by maek
    Actually, I'm shooting in regular 1080/60i mode. I'm aware of the issues of 24p and I don't film in that for good reason. I'm sure that it's dynamite with controlled shots, but shooting a 4-year old is problematic at best.

    I'm not sure what you call it, but I'm referring to the artifacting that occurs if something moves quickly on screen. I don't see it on the DV footage, though, so I'm assuming that it's a result of the MPEG-2 compression inherent with the HDV footage.

    Is there an easy way to fix this in post, similar to how motion blur is incorporated on animated effects in Vegas? Is there something in Vegas that can do it, even if it's a plug-in?

    Thanks again.
    MPeg motion artifacts result from real time motion prediction errors. The normal way to minimize these is to shoot uncompressed or with intraframe only compression and then use non-realtime analysis to improve motion compression accuracy. That is to say once video is captured, non-realtime analysis of actual data will beat prediction in realtime analysis.

    An MPeg camcorder must do the best it can to predict motion at the cost of errors.

    High def camcorder formats that record all frames include HDCAM, DVCProHD and AVC-Intra. Those are expensive. The rest use motion estimation.
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    So, then, it's the HDV camera... Wow, so-called hi-res video comes with a set of problems (manufacturers taking the "cheap" path. in terms of not recording motion shots "well enough") and consumers not knowing any better ?
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  23. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by halsboss
    So, then, it's the HDV camera... Wow, so-called hi-res video comes with a set of problems (manufacturers taking the "cheap" path. in terms of not recording motion shots "well enough") and consumers not knowing any better ?
    It is all about fitting resolution or motion accuracy into 25 Mb/s. Same issues as SD MPeg2 DVD at 4-8 Mb/s or HD BluRay at 16-25 Mb/s.

    The pro's get more motion accuracy and high resolution but at a bit rate cost.

    XDCAM-HD (MPeg2) @ 35 Mb/s

    DVCProHD (DCT-Intraframe) @ 100 Mb/s
    AVC-Intra (AVC-Intraframe) @ 50 or 100 Mb/s
    HDCAM (DCT-Intraframe) @ 144 Mb/s
    HDCAM-SR (DCT-Intraframe) @ 440 or 880 Mb/s
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  24. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    It's not just HDV cams.

    Download the mpegs in the first post below. That's from a RED camera.


    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9362
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  25. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Soopafresh
    It's not just HDV cams.

    Download the mpegs in the first post below. That's from a RED camera.


    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9362
    AVCHD (h.264) compressed to 8-12 Mb/s has far more motion issues than HDV at 25Mb/s and doesn't decompress as well. h.264 in theory is 2x as efficient as MPeg2 but not current real time h.264 hardware codecs.

    More highly compressed h.264 is worse still. Just undertand that these consumer flash and HDD camcorders come with a quality penalty if you decompress. Digital camera video is more compressed than that.
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  26. Member racer-x's Avatar
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    You need to learn to shoot in manual mode and adjust shutter and arperture settings. Usually the stutter is directly linked to bright light/ high shutter speed (1/500 - 1/ 1000) for example. This gives an overly sharp picture that results in stuttering when panning / fast motion. If you shoot out doors on a bright sunny day in "AUTO" mode, the camera will compensate for the bright light and increase the shutter speed. That could be what you are seeing

    Try shooting in "TV" mode and set the shutter speed for out door shots in the 1/60 - 1/120 range. For indoor use 1/30 - 1/60. Also use this tutorial video to learn how to adjust the Aperture on your HV20/30 in "TV" mode:
    http://hv20.info/yopu/hv20aperturecontrol.mov
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  27. Member maek's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by racer-x
    You need to learn to shoot in manual mode and adjust shutter and arperture settings. Usually the stutter is directly linked to bright light/ high shutter speed (1/500 - 1/ 1000) for example. This gives an overly sharp picture that results in stuttering when panning / fast motion. If you shoot out doors on a bright sunny day in "AUTO" mode, the camera will compensate for the bright light and increase the shutter speed. That could be what you are seeing

    Try shooting in "TV" mode and set the shutter speed for out door shots in the 1/60 - 1/120 range. For indoor use 1/30 - 1/60. Also use this tutorial video to learn how to adjust the Aperture on your HV20/30 in "TV" mode:
    http://hv20.info/yopu/hv20aperturecontrol.mov
    Actually, you might be right in this case. Most of the stutter I saw WAS in bright light footage...could it be a combination of the shutter speed as well as MPEG-2 compression? I'll give that a shot...I usually shoot in TV mode for indoor shots, but not outdoors.

    I also was unaware of the higher-end cameras being able to shoot in full frames, although I did know about the 15th I-frame issue with typical HDV camcorders. Like I said, it's hardly noticeable most of the time except for the times I NEED to rapid pan or if something is moving quickly on a screen. However, I am now understanding that it's the nature of the on-board motion estimation on the camera.

    That said, I purchased the Canon HV20 after having tried out (and returned) Panasonic's HDC-SD9 camera. The HDC-SD9 camera shoots footage that is absolutely painful to watch; even my wife noticed it and asked "what the hell is that?" I would love it if flash memory cameras would catch up, but the compression is still wayyyy too much even at 17 Mbps. I guess what I'm trying to say is that shooting on the Canon is a "dream come true" compared to the AVCHD alternatives that are currently out there.

    I'm nitpicky, though, so I would like to see a quick run of votes: shoot in DV or HDV?
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  28. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Soopafresh
    Great article.
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  29. Member maek's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by Soopafresh
    Great article.
    Amazingly good...somebody took a lot of trouble and time to develop that.
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