Mainconcept DV Codec Vs. The Rest

[SeeNoEVO]

hows it going...I have the mainconcept dv codec and I have converted some video files into the codec to edit it in SONY VEGAS. When I'm done, I was wondering if it's better to leave the files in MAINCONCEPT form for the final production or convert it to XVID or DIVX, or whatever? I searched around in google and forums and found that people have been saying that MAINCONCEPT is currently the best and fastest in terms of preserving quality. I just wanted to get some opinions before I do this. Thanks a lot guys.

[redwudz]

There's a thread on Doom9 about DV encoder comparisons: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=899999#post899999
What is the final form of the video going to be?

[BJ_M]

final production into what ?

[SeeNoEVO]

final production to my video. I'm working on transitions and stuff like that. When the video is in "final production," there's no more editing so I can burn it to a dvd. I'll check the thread redwudz, thanks.

[BJ_M]

well if dvd is the final stage, certainly dont convert it to divx / xvid first !

[edDV]

...I have converted some video files into the codec to edit it in SONY VEGAS. When I'm done, I was wondering if it's better to leave the files in MAINCONCEPT form for the final production or convert it to XVID or DIVX, or whatever?...

What is the source?
What is the result desired?

Vegas will also work with uncompressed RGB project format.

[edDV]

Are you asking about MPeg2 encoding?
What is the quality of the source?

Alt 1:
Source file -> DV project -> Encode MPeg2 -> Author DVD

Alt 2:
Source file -> Uncompressed RGB project -> Encode MPeg2 -> Author DVD

[SeeNoEVO]

ok so i think i'm confusing everyone so I apologize. I'm gonna be specific: I recorded some video shots on a trip a while back on a camcorder via DV TAPES. I recorded each DV TAPE (6) on each DVD via "DV LINKING" through my dvd recorder player. I copied each DVD into "XVID" avi files via WINAVI.

That's where I'm at.

Now I read that its easier to convert the "XVID" files into codecs like DV AVI, Uncompressed, Lagarith, etc. because it's easier to edit in, and that most editing programs won't accept XVID. And this is where I have a question with because I converted all the "XVID" avi's into MAINCONCEPT DV AVI because it preserves the quality of my video. The original source, which is XVID, is in excellent quality. Very clear and crisp video quality. That's why I want to preserve that quality, and reading around shows me that MAINCONCEPT DV is the best codec that preserves that video quality. Once I'm done editing the video files from the MAINCONCEPT DV AVI, I'm finished. It is done. That's why I wanna ask if I should leave it in MAINCONCEPT form or convert it to an XVID file, or MPEG2 so I can burn to a dvd?? Like I stated before, I want the output to be the best quality, which is the same quality as the source. Thanks for the replys.

[edDV]

That path degrades quality at each step. The preferred method is firewire (IEEE-1394) capture directly to the computer The resulting DV-AVI file is an exact copy of the data on tape. Vegas in DV project mode will maintain 1st generation quality to the output for all frames that aren't filtered or transition processed. The DV codec (Mainconcept) is used to convert processed frames to and from RGB. Frames not processed remain first generation quality.

DV Camcorder -> IEEE-1394 transfer -> DV-AVI file -> Vegas DV timeline -> MPeg2 encoder - DVD Authoring.

Various output processing options are possible

1. Output DV-AVI file (unprocessed frames are still first generation).

2. Encode to MPeg2 for standard DVD.

3. Encode to divx or xvid or any other format.


PS: By first generation I mean those frames trace to the camcoder hardware DV codec. They have not been modified by Vegas or the Mainconcept DV codec.

[redwudz]

"XVID" avi files via WINAVI

That's two major problems right there that I would leave out of any conversion for editing. When your editing is all finished you might convert to Xvid. Maybe it's just me, but it looks like you are re-encoding the video three or more times.

EDIT: What edDV said.

[SeeNoEVO]

That path degrades quality at each step. The preferred method is firewire (IEEE-1394) capture directly to the computer The resulting DV-AVI file is an exact copy of the data on tape. Vegas in DV project mode will maintain 1st generation quality to the output for all frames that aren't filtered or transition processed. The DV codec (Mainconcept) is used to convert processed frames to and from RGB. Frames not processed remain first generation quality.

DV Camcorder -> IEEE-1394 transfer -> DV-AVI file -> Vegas DV timeline -> MPeg2 encoder - DVD Authoring.

Various output processing options are possible

1. Output DV-AVI file (unprocessed frames are still first generation).

2. Encode to MPeg2 for standard DVD.

3. Encode to divx or xvid or any other format.


PS: By first generation I mean those frames trace to the camcoder hardware DV codec. They have not been modified by Vegas or the Mainconcept DV codec.

Thanks edDV. I have some questions about that though. I did what I had described months ago, so I dont know if I still have the DV TAPES to do a direct link from the HANDYCAM to my COMPUTER via FIREWIRE. However, if I did, I will follow your process of
"DV Camcorder -> IEEE-1394 transfer -> DV-AVI file -> Vegas DV timeline -> MPeg2 encoder - DVD Authoring." But in terms of encoding it to MPEG2 when I'm done, is that better then encoding it to XVID MPEG4? If so what MPEG2 encoder is the best?

Secondly, if hypothetically, I only have the original source, which is only the XVID files, and I lost the DV TAPES, do I have to suffer with encoding it to MAINCONCEPT, edit it, and then encode BACK to MPEG2 or XVID, then authoring it? I know it degrades quality each time I encode.

thanks.

[edDV]

That path degrades quality at each step. The preferred method is firewire (IEEE-1394) capture directly to the computer The resulting DV-AVI file is an exact copy of the data on tape. Vegas in DV project mode will maintain 1st generation quality to the output for all frames that aren't filtered or transition processed. The DV codec (Mainconcept) is used to convert processed frames to and from RGB. Frames not processed remain first generation quality.

DV Camcorder -> IEEE-1394 transfer -> DV-AVI file -> Vegas DV timeline -> MPeg2 encoder - DVD Authoring.

Various output processing options are possible

1. Output DV-AVI file (unprocessed frames are still first generation).

2. Encode to MPeg2 for standard DVD.

3. Encode to divx or xvid or any other format.


PS: By first generation I mean those frames trace to the camcoder hardware DV codec. They have not been modified by Vegas or the Mainconcept DV codec.

Thanks edDV. I have some questions about that though. I did what I had described months ago, so I dont know if I still have the DV TAPES to do a direct link from the HANDYCAM to my COMPUTER via FIREWIRE. However, if I did, I will follow your process of
"DV Camcorder -> IEEE-1394 transfer -> DV-AVI file -> Vegas DV timeline -> MPeg2 encoder - DVD Authoring." But in terms of encoding it to MPEG2 when I'm done, is that better then encoding it to XVID MPEG4? If so what MPEG2 encoder is the best?

MPeg2 is required to do a standard DVD. See "What is DVD?"
https://www.videohelp.com/dvd

It is your personal decision to use MPeg4 xvid/divx. Playback of these files is non-standard and DVD Player specific.

Secondly, if hypothetically, I only have the original source, which is only the XVID files, and I lost the DV TAPES, do I have to suffer with encoding it to MAINCONCEPT, edit it, and then encode BACK to MPEG2 or XVID, then authoring it? I know it degrades quality each time I encode.

That is so much conversion. For xvid source, I'd consider uncompressed RGB as the project format. Vegas filtering and transitions would then be done from RGB saving a generation.

Otherwise using DV as project, xvid would be converted to DV, then processed frames would be converted to RGB, processed and then converted back again to DV.

Output to MPeg2 or xvid/divx could be done from either project setting.


PS: RGB may give better quality but will also use much more hard disc space.

[SeeNoEVO]

thanks edDV...i appreciate your help...Just a couple last things I want to ask you. What MPEG2 codec would be best to use? And secondly, can you give me an example of when MAINCONCEPT codec is used? thanks.

[BJ_M]

if you are using vegas - just use the vegas mpeg encoder

[edDV]

thanks edDV...i appreciate your help...Just a couple last things I want to ask you. What MPEG2 codec would be best to use? And secondly, can you give me an example of when MAINCONCEPT codec is used? thanks.

Vegas includes the Mainconcept MPeg2 encoder. You can use that or any of the others.

If you follow the DV project path, the Mainconcept DV codec converts frames that are included in transitions, composites or filters to RGB. The actual pixel calculation is done in RGB. When you output from Vegas to a DVI-AVI file, the Mainconcept DV codec is used to convert RGB to DV format.

Also, if you import xvid to a Vegas DV format project, the Mainconcept DV codec is used in the conversion of xvid to DV format. In that case, all imported frames are converted to DV format.

[BJ_M]

vegas doesnt use the mainconcept dv codec natively ... it was developed inhouse in madison

[SeeNoEVO]

if you are using vegas - just use the vegas mpeg encoder

when you say mpeg encoder, you're talking about Vegas' "NTSC AVI" video format right? I used that and compared it to a MAINCONCEPT encoder and it looks like my video is moderately darker in "NTSC AVI", while in MAINCONCEPT, it's clearer. Does MAINCONCEPT use the standard DVD MPEG2 or is it like XVID?

[BJ_M]

you are mixing up formats ..... when i say mpeg encoder , i mean mepg2 .. like for dvd

never judge 'brighter darker' on a computer screen when final output is for dvd

[edDV]

vegas doesnt use the mainconcept dv codec natively ... it was developed inhouse in madison

Ahh right!

Both Adobe and Sony use their own DV codecs. I forgot. But DV codecs don't vary by much. DV is a mature format. Mainconcept is an OEM DV codec that can be licensed or purchased for individual use.

[Marvingj]

Mainconcept all the way.....

[edDV]

if you are using vegas - just use the vegas mpeg encoder

when you say mpeg encoder, you're talking about Vegas' "NTSC AVI" video format right? I used that and compared it to a MAINCONCEPT encoder and it looks like my video is moderately darker in "NTSC AVI", while in MAINCONCEPT, it's clearer. Does MAINCONCEPT use the standard DVD MPEG2 or is it like XVID?

You find the MPeg2 encoder under "render as" then "Mainconcept MPeg2" then all the preset formats below and for each "Custom" tabs.

[vhelp]

Hi SeeNoEVO,

In addition to the other posts..

XviD (images) are in YUV color space, and use the YV12 4:2:0 sampling format.
It can be arguable weather you did a good thing or not, by converting it to yet
another color space and sampling format -- DV, which is also YUV color space,
but is in 4:1:1 sampling format. I leave it up to the *codecs* to fight it out
in terms of upsampling/downsampling during this conversion process when
determining final quality of this -- but XviD can be slow on some timelines
because it (internal decoding processes) has to rebuild frames, and when
scaning backwards, that process can become very slow, though depending
on the length of the key-frames. And, in some cases, going XviD -> DV may
not be such a bad idea.. it all depends on one's project and scope.

Oops, there is also the fact that DV is yet another form of compression.

Your best bet is to stick with the original XviD source.., unless you can find
your DV tapes. You did say that you may not have then anymore. As I was
saying. And then go XviD -> MPEG-2, assuming that this is your intended
goal.

Also, fwiw..

XviD[yv12] -> DV[??]

It's hard to apply a given format specifier for DV (ie, YV12 or i420) because
most, if not all, DV codecs, internally perform an upsampling to YUY2 4:2:2
sampling format to enhance or overcome certain color space phenominas
(or, bugs) and this is mostly a good thing for DV in the long run. In DV,
either its dvsd, or I'm wrong, and/or there is Y14P (progressive frames) and
I forget the other, for Interlace. Actually, these ( Y14P and ? ) apply to the
4:1:1 sampling format. Can't remember everything.., this is off the top of my
head -- no cheeting, hehe.

Ok. So, getting back to your situation.

If you want to preserve as much of your original sources (XviD) quality, then
you want to use an encoder that does nothing to it, keeping it in the
YV12 sample format, and serving it to the MPEG Encoder and processing it
to your final MPEG, which is YUV color space and YV12 4:2:0 sample format.
This is assuming, MPEG-2, of course.

Now, there is the function of decoding the XviD first and then MPEG Encoding
it to MPEG-2. The XviD decoder handles that process. Thus, your goal is:

XviD[YV12] -> MPEG-2[YV12]

It is my belief that Premier and Vegas (and I think, MainConcept encoder)
all process within the video in questions' format.. ie, your XviD video.
This will (should) get you the XviD[YV12] -> MPEG-2[YV12] goal.

Also, there is another alternative. AVIsynth and its scripting. Its easy, for
what you need. After installing it, if you haven't already..

Type the following inside NOTEPAD and save it as xvid.avs

 x = "path\yourfilename.avi"
 DirectShowSource( x )

Then, using HCenc (if you haven't downloaded it yet, do so at your leasure)
This is a software (freeware) MPEG encoder. There are several guides to
using this tool. Look under Tools or Guides. I forget which one. But when
you find the tool, there should be guides listed, if there are any.

With HCenc running, proceed to open the AVS script xvid.avs and
proceed to encode. Review the guides or the tools readme file for help.

-vhelp 4297

[SeeNoEVO]

ok so I have found the tapes and will be transfering it via FIREWIRE. I got most of what everyone said but I'm still a little confused. I dont see MAINCONCEPT MPEG period in the "render as" option. The only thing I have is MAINCONCEPT DV CODEC. However, I did download the MainConcept MPEG Encoder standalone program if that's what you're talking about edDV. If you are, then what format do I render it to before encoding it to MPEG with MAINCONCEPT. I have attached an image to make it easier. thanks.

[BJ_M]

first -- you have have a registered version ... then pick mpeg as video format ..... then type of mpeg2 -- you are looking at avi render options in your screen shot ...

all completely covered in your manual and help file ...

[edDV]

ok so I have found the tapes and will be transfering it via FIREWIRE. I got most of what everyone said but I'm still a little confused. I dont see MAINCONCEPT MPEG period in the "render as" option. The only thing I have is MAINCONCEPT DV CODEC. However, I did download the MainConcept MPEG Encoder standalone program if that's what you're talking about edDV. If you are, then what format do I render it to before encoding it to MPEG with MAINCONCEPT. I have attached an image to make it easier. thanks.

Your menu is Video for Windows. The MPeg2 encoder lives one level up.

[SeeNoEVO]

Your menu is Video for Windows. The MPeg2 encoder lives one level up.

oh ok, I gotcha. Thanks. I got it now. Thanks edDV and everyone else for your imput and suggestions.