[?] Simulate a Tattoo?

[#1 Stunna]

hey guys,

just wondering what I could use to simulate a tattoo on a person?
the tattoo would need to look real & when the person moves the tattoo should follow accordingly.
anyone have any advice for me?

thanks for any help.

[Shocker Milwaukee]

They do pretty good work.

-or-



They're pretty good, too.

[#1 Stunna]

ummm... what are you suggesting exactly?
that I have Dreamworks or Pixar do this for me?
be for for real, dude....

[tgm4883]

I think what he is trying to say is that it is really hard. I think you have to paint the tattoo on every frame.

[#1 Stunna]

there are programs for this like Combustion or similar.
I thought this was a pro board?

[guns1inger]

Theoretically it can be done by hand painting frame by frame. It is time consuming and difficult because you have to match perspective changes, partial obscuring because of foreground objects or because the person half turns, plus you also have to address shifts in lighting and colour tone. Software that can be used for this includes

After Effects, Combustion, Fusion, Photoshop CS3 (Extended Edition)

The way someone like ILM would approach this would be to use a 3D program to create a proxy body part with the tattoo mapped onto it. Using 3D Match Moving techniques they would mimic the movement of the original body part, including creating proxies of foreground objects, add lighting to match the original plates, then render the tattoo in multiple passes for compositing later.

This would be done by a team of several people and take quite some effort. It is practical only for short scenes to fix continuity problems, but would be prohibitively expensive to apply to every scene.

[Nitemare]

Seriously... doing this digitally would be so time consuming that it wouldn't be worth it. I'd look into practical effects instead... like a customized temporary tattoo... or a simple design drawn on with a Sharpie.

Sometimes the simple solutions are the best ones. All directors and FX guys agree that if a thing can be done as a practical effect, it should.

If the design is complex, consider using self-stick labels. Design tattoo... print a bunch of them, use exacto-knife to trim where needed... apply spirit gum (lables will adhere to this better than untreated skin), stick tattoo as needed. Otherwise.. a series of templates (one for each color) and sharpies are the bomb.

Fastest, cheapest way to get it done and frankly,... smarter than trying it digitally. It would look more real also.

[#1 Stunna]

hmmm... thanks for the in-depth response, guns1inger
it will be about a 120 to 180 second clip.
I'll give it a go w/ Combustion & PhotoShop.

this was my first thought from the jump, but I thought maybe you guys knew an easier way.

@Nitemare:

the footage is already done, therefore I can't use a real temp tattoo. this will be a learning experience. thanks for the help though.

[guns1inger]

If it is a fairly static shot then you might be able to do it that way. If it is on, for example, an arm that is moving around a lot then you will be in for a hard time. You are talking about 3000 - 4500 frames that have to be altered, potentially by hand.

[#1 Stunna]

yes, there will be a lot of movement.
if it's not worth the effort we'll scrap it.
it's not sounding too promising ATM.

[edDV]

How many frames do you need ? If it's just a few frames, you could work frame by frame.

Over longer duration, you could do it with compositing and splined layer translation using programs like Premiere Pro, Vegas or After Effects but this would take advanced skills. You don't start at that complexity.

[#1 Stunna]

yes, I am on a pro level.
I own all of these apps.
this is just a new task that I have never done before.

I haven't even looked at the footage in detail yet. I will probably go w/ the suggestions from here & if it's not feasible I will just write it up as a lesson learned.

thanks for all your help guys.

[lordsmurf]

wrigleyvideo.com might have some guides that teach you the concepts you'll need, doing it in Adobe Premiere. It will take a lot of effort.

If you're shooting this new, just do the henna route.

[edDV]

You create the graphic with alpha in Photoshop. In Premiere or other, use X Y Z position and X Y Z rotation plus 2D X Y graphic sizing per key frame in the foreground composite. Adjust alpha transparency to look natural. Complicated motion requires more key frames. Splines are adjusted to match subject motion.

If the subject moves such that the tattoo is obscured, set keyframe alpha to zero for the hidden path. If the subject passes behind an object, a mask can be created for that object.

Repeat adjustments until acceptable.

[hech54]

there are programs for this like Combustion or similar.
I thought this was a pro board?

Why would you worry about this being a Pro board?

hmm... thanks guys.
I'm new to video editing, but I am learning very quickly.
having the proper tools is basically 90% of the job, so thanks again.

-$tunna

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic291593.html#1454771

[lordsmurf]

I thought this was a pro board?

Why would you worry about this being a Pro board?

Yeah, this is an "everybody" kind of site. That has its ups and its downs, but you're getting a good answer. I'm afraid you're just not liking the answers, it's not that they lack in quality. A few of the folks who answered you work (or have worked) professionally with video.

[ZAPPER]

While I have never done this, I would maybe try to keep in mind that you are going for an effect. A 2-D tattoo in a format to be rotated on all axis would be easier to work with and could be rubberstamped for several frames maybe before modifiying again. As long as the tattoo was not supposed to be the key to the whole scene, graphic quality should not be that critical in high motion. A close up of just the tattoo should be a body double or the original actor with good artwork and lighting and such.

If you can pick a couple of refference points (Center point or tip of elbow and top of shoulder extended to represent the upper arm and its motion) to help with the placement, rotation and scale of the tattoo on the 2-D a little tweaking on the 3-D should go easy (well, relitive to...)

I had a freind do some clay animation, and it is no doubt a labor of love. Like 45 seconds took a week to do

[Nelson37]

How hard would it be to grab the original guy, get some needles and ink, poke his arm a few thousand times, and re-shoot the scene?

Sounds like all that may be the easiest way.

[#1 Stunna]

there are programs for this like Combustion or similar.
I thought this was a pro board?

Why would you worry about this being a Pro board?

ummm.... yeah, WTH?
why are you trying to start some crap over nothing?
do you not have anything better to do?

hmm... thanks guys.
I'm new to video editing, but I am learning very quickly.
having the proper tools is basically 90% of the job, so thanks again.

-$tunna

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic291593.html#1454771

look @ the date on that post January 2006.
come on dude, act professional. nobody has time for such childish games.

[edDV]

So, did it work?

[hech54]

there are programs for this like Combustion or similar.
I thought this was a pro board?

Why would you worry about this being a Pro board?

ummm.... yeah, WTH?
why are you trying to start some crap over nothing?
do you not have anything better to do?

Yes I am starting crap....so what.
How dare you come here and ask a smart-ass thing like
I thought this was a pro board? when you are not
even close to being a "pro" yourself.

[sammie]

As mentioned, there are two usual effects, hand drawing it in each frame. You can get some help from programs (Photoshop, etc) that can create multilayer masks and do rotational perspective and warping, but you would still need a fairly "smooth" background for the tatoo to look like it isn't floating in air.

The alternative is using a 3d generator program such as used by Weta, Pixar, ILM etc. These are heavy duty typically substantially custom programs, that you are unlikely to be able to afford, and would even more unlikely have access to the computational horsepower to render the art if you could. The only "pro-sumer" program I know of is Poser. A very fun program to work with and something that can create somewhat lifelike images, but they still look like generated computer images.

[#1 Stunna]

Yes I am starting crap....so what.
How dare you come here and ask a smart-ass thing like
I thought this was a pro board? when you are not
even close to being a "pro" yourself.

son, you're totally LAME. get a life & keep me out of your fantasies.
you have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

(can an Admin put a gag on this guy or something? completely worthless comments are not needed)

[ZAPPER]

Ahhhhh, it took me a second to figure it out, it's a German thing. Lighten up boys and have some fun. And if you are having fun, then smile about it. Me? I got to go tend the smoker and eat some food!

[#1 Stunna]

Ahhhhh, it took me a second to figure it out, it's a German thing.

no, I am not German. location does not dictate nationality or perspective.

[mats.hogberg]

@Hech & Stunna: Put your guns down in your holsters, or yellow cards will start flying.

/Mats

[#1 Stunna]

I'm cool. this other guy is on some high school B.S.
you can lock this thread now, as I already have my answer.
thanks.

[edDV]

I'm cool. this other guy is on some high school B.S.
you can lock this thread now, as I already have my answer.
thanks.

Are you absorbing any of the advice?
What is your progress?

So far the only skill you have shown is buying software.

[mats.hogberg]

Locked at the OP's request.

/Mats