using iffy DVDs for data storage

[blacktooth]

I have used Maxell DVD+R discs with good success...until recently. When Best Buy had a sale on them a few months ago, I stocked up. Now I'm having problems with these formerly reliable Maxell discs. They burn, but they don't play back well in mutliple DVD players I've tried.

I started investigating by going through the guides and the forum archives. Only now have I been reasonably educated about the wide variety of quality differences amongst DVD media. I will be switching to TY. In the meantime, I now have 60 or so blank DVDs that I do not trust to burn DVD movies on.

I often backup important AVI files onto DVDs. I use Nero 6 and its "Make Data DVD" function and I always use the data verification option.

My question is this. Are DVD media reliability issues the same for data storage as they are for DVD movies? I would hate to back up important files, delete them from my hard drive, and then find out later that the DVDs somehow failed. Can I trust these iffy DVDs for data storage?

Thank you for any help.

[mrlar2]

Maxell changed their manufacturer a while back (and of course it takes time for the older stock to sell and be replaced). The Maxell DVD-Rs and DVD+Rs used to be made in Japan. Then they decided to outsource them to Taiwan and have them made by Ritek, which I feel is junk (see my recent post from tonight on why I will never buy Ritek again). At any rate, regardles of how you feel about Ritek, put simply, Maxell changed who makes their discs not too long ago, so if you are having problems with Maxells that you never used to have with them before (assuming you're not having problems across the board with all media brands now) then that's probably because the Maxells of today are COMPLETELY different than the Maxells made a year or two ago (they may look the same on the outside, but they're made by a different company). I would do as you suggest... stick to buying TY. The vast majority of my DVDs were Made-in-Japan Maxells and Made-in-Japan TYs. Have yet to have any problem with them. However I've just had horrible rot (discs completely corrupted) problems ONLY with Ritek media discs (the new maker of Maxell's discs). As I mentioned in my post, ONLY the Riteks have rotted -- not even any of the "el cheapo" brands that I've occasionally used. If it were me, I'd suggest simply throwing out the made in Taiwan Maxells (or if they're still sealed, return them for a refund or store credit even) and buy TYs. I've just spent countless hours trying to recover (only partially successfully) rotted Ritek discs...

But the short answer is, the newer Maxells are Riteks, not Maxells. So they're a completely different disc even though they look the same. If you've having problems, use better media.

As far as if reliability changes if it's data or movies -- No. A movie is just data anyway, "translated" differently. It's the same thing. As to whether you should trust ANY type of data storage or movies to iffy media... why? Why even bother backing it up if chances are good it won't be there in a few months. Even top-of-the-line DVDs (TYs) aren't that expensive anymore. And though I haven't used them myself, people seem to also like Verbatums, which you can always find on sale at the big box stores. Throw away junk (whatever brand it may be). Trust me. I've just wasted SO MANY HOURS trying to recover rotted data. IT ISN'T WORTH IT.

[jman98]

I agree mrlar2. If you must use these bad DVDs for data backup, consider making some PAR files to go along with them. You can do research on PAR on the internet. Basically, PAR files will enable you to recover the complete disc should a certain percentage of it go bad. For example, you can create PAR files that will enable you to deal with losing 10% of your data. In this case, if you lose 11%, you can't recover. You can set PAR recovery sizes for whatever you like, but the greater the recovery size, the more PAR files you'll have to store somewhere.

[blacktooth]

Thanks. I'll be pitching them - well, after I try to return them first.

[Krispy Kritter]

It is also possible that they are not necessarily defective or "cheap", but that your standalone player doesn't like that brand/type of disc.

Try burning one of the discs as data, then test it to see if it has any errors.

[oldandinthe way]

Either your standalone player(s), or your DVD writer might not like these disks.

One general rule of thumb, the greater the age of your equipment, the greater the chances of finding new media which gives you problems. Sometimes firmware updates can improve the behavior. Many computer manufacturers include firmware updates for their factory installed burners in their automatic update program.

Most brands of DVD media are no longer made in Japan. Many name manufacturers with good reputations over all are shipping so-called "crap media" with their names on it. Given the costs of support and warranty it would be stupid to assume they would knowingly be creating problems for themselves and risking a reputation built with many types of products. You can rest assured that most users do not have problems with these products.

[lordsmurf]

Given the costs of support and warranty it would be stupid to assume they would knowingly be creating problems for themselves and risking a reputation built with many types of products.

No, that's not it either. The problem is they don't anything at all, one way or the other. Some manufacturer fellates their own product in front of a re-brander, and the re-brander buys into it. The same thing happened when selling to the big-box store. Shelves are lined with garbage because nobody that is involved between manufacturer and buyer knows what the hell they're doing. They're thinking with dollars signs, instead of in terms of "is this really a good product".

You can rest assured that most users do not have problems with these products.

Not true. They make lots of crap. Just consider DVD labels and "DVD safe" markers. It's nothing but shit that should never be used. They sell it ONLY BECAUSE people are dumb enough to buy it.

[oldandinthe way]

Lord Smurf you are living in the past.

Most of the folks who buy DVDs at mass market stores buy brands you list as 2nd and 3rd tier. Surprisingly enough there are few concerns about returns or warranty among these customers. Big box retailers will readily drop products which have high return rates, they aren't seeing them on HP, Imation, TDK, Maxell, SONY, Fuji or any of the other rebranders. Verbatim is being dropped by as many retailers as are dropping any of the "lower quality" brands. Rebranded TY is now virtually absent from the retail channel.

As you know, the VSO study showed excellent success rates with widely used retail brands, and some surprising data on the writers most likely to have a successful burn.

I have anecdotal evidence from several retailers as to return rates on media. Overall under 1%, no significant difference by brand. Lower returns on DVD than CD.

We receive returned media from several retailers and find that unless there is obvious physical damage, we can burn successfully ALL of the unburned disks.

There are many reasons why this can differ from your experience, including the possibility that the buyers are owners of factory-built systems with a more limited selection of DVDwriter brands than your experience.

As for DVD/CD labels, I don't use them, but many people do, including some small record companies and they are not deluged with returns and complaints. It appears to me when properly applied they might be benign, but I lack the patience and need to try.

I do use Sharpies on my DVDs - so far without problem.

You have a far more negative attitude about the masses than I do. I do not see them as stupid victims. When wronged, they complain loudly and to anyone who will listen. And retailers do listen.

I see more lazy behavior than stupid behavior. Prices bid at auction on Circuit City's Ebay Stores for open box merchandise often exceed the retail store sale flyers. Purchasers of the house brand media often pay more than name brand specials.

[lordsmurf]

I'm not living in the past. You're living in la-la land.

I don't know where you get those stupid ideas that Verbatim is being dropped, or that TY is any more or less absent than it has been in the past 6 years. The short-term TY held by Fuji and Sony was short-lived. TY has never been a "big brand" reseller because they don't subject themselves to "Walmartology" where products are financially squeezed into becoming crap, to appease the "low price, high profit" model of big box stores.

Return rates do not qualify products, it merely quantifies them. Lots of people are stupid, they don't return things. They expect it to be inferior. They don't care. They don't actually test/use the media themselves. Etc, etc. That might equate lesser returns, but it sure as hell does not mean quality production.

You're not very business savvy.

I'm not going to delude people into a false sense of security. You're doing what the brands and stores do. I'm perfectly willing to admit to them that they are going to get screwed at the first chance that the store or company gets, so they'd better arm themselves with knowledge to fight back, or simply avoid the problem altogether.

... Which brings us back to this thread...

Maxell is a quality company that can make quality media. However, they decided to appease big-box stores, instead of retain a quality brand. The result is tons and tons of awful Ritek crapola that fails to work, in their consumer-branded lines sold in big-name stores. It's not worth two farts rubbed together. The best way to address this is to understand that Ritek is very hit-or-miss in quality, so it's not worth buying. Use something else that is known to be better. You can also buy online, and get real Maxell-coded media that way.

[DarrellS]

I've never seen disc rot and never heard of it till lately in this forum. They are corrupt from the time you burn a DVD movie to them, users just fail to realize it till they try to play the disc, which could be months or even years later so they feel it must be some kind of disc rot phenomenon.

I made the same mistake of buying Ritek and Ridata discs and although all of the Ritek discs were coasters because I tried to make DVD backups with them, all of the data DVDs that I created with the Ridata (Ritek) discs worked fine when I made them and are still working fine today.

I won't buy anymore of these discs since I don't want to reward them for creating worthless DVD movie discs but since I paid for them, I will get my use out of them. I have plenty of generic CD-Rs that work just fine after eight years and I doubt I'll have any problems with my Data DVDs eight years from now.

It does piss me off though that reliable disc manufacterors are rebadging these discs with their name on them and not stating on the label that they are Ritek discs. They should be forced to state that these discs are not reliable for burning DVDs and forced to package them as Data DVDs.

[lordsmurf]

It's not "disc rot". The burn was always bad. It didn't "go bad". It was "always bad". The biggest problem of "bad media" is people don't test until it's way after the fact.

Indeed, companies ... all companies, in all products .... should be forced to list who manufactured the goods. Brands are a way to hide more than anything else.

[oldandinthe way]

Lordsmurf

You clearly have never had a position of responsility in a business, or you would not have this negative picture of how companies make product decisions.

I have been an executive in computer and peripheral manufacturers and network suppliers. Providing the highest quality product at the lowest possible cost was always our goal. I competed with and purchased products from many of the companies which rebrand DVD media and can honestly say they had similar goals to mine.

It is not possible to maintain corporate growth and financial health by selling inferior product. Particularly in this day and age when technology profits are thin.

Returns are a very important measure of product quality. They reduce the profits of retailers and increase the manufacturer's costs. Too many returns and retailers drop the product or the line.

Not all products are dropped for quality reasons, and I doubt if that is the reason that Verbatim is not on the shelves of Staples stores in New England. Though HP, SONY, Playo, Fuji, TDK and several other brands are, along with a house brand.

DVD media has not been "Walmartized", Walmart is not a particularly low-priced supplier of DVD media, and stocks fewer brands and sizes than other Big Box stores.

Like all technology products that are on a survival path, DVD media and drives have riden the learning curve down in price. Many players who could not show the economies of scale have cease to manufacture and relabel or have left the segment.

I did not suggest that TY was a retail brand, but commented that companies that relabeled TY media, like SONY, no longer do.

The industry recognized method of determining the quality of a DVD write is data verification. Every PC owner has the ability to determine the quality of his product in exactly the same way.

Needless to say this is inadequate to guarantee compatibility with the universe of potential player, but that is the fault of the DVD standards. A manufacturer of a DVDwriter is only required to test with a single media to meet DVD-R requirements. No one knows whether drive makers actually test all of the media they provide drive strategies for. They probably do not based on the results drive owners get.

There is no requirement for massive testing of DVD media in different makers drives.

There are drives which reliably burn all of the media in major retail outlets. I own several.

Today I have been burning 8x Opto DVD+R disks. Generally viewed as low quality. I am using this media because its faster than RW, I got it for free, and the content is ephemeral. No burn errors on verification. One blank disk would not spin up - an ideal error - no data placed at risk. I don't expect these to last, but I've saved some 14 month old burned dvds from a drive which no longer is in service and so far no data errors. Perhaps good drives give good burns.

If there is a business decision being made which might affect media performance it might be to ignore older writers, older players, and defunct manufacturers. Do I believe a media maker could decide older SONY drives or BenQ or BTC or any other brand are irrelevant - yes I do. Will this affect your experience? You betcha.

[lordsmurf]

"Providing the highest quality product at the lowest possible cost was always our goal."
Well, good for you! You'll find this is not everybody's goal. They don't care about "highest quality" but simply "highest profit".

I'm sorry, but you're way too narrowminded and literal to have a conversation with me. For example, when I refer to "Walmartology", that does not mean I'm talking about the store Walmart, but rather a business practice they have pretty much pioneered (at least to the extent it is currently performed, they didn't necessarily start the practice). Or the fact that you even remotely think TY was ever a player in getting media re-badged.

You're missing the big picture.

[bbanderic]

I have to totally agree with LS. It's all about profits, when it comes to blank DVD media, quality is secondary.

The reason they get away with selling junk media is because the average Joe doesn't know any better, or care. And, they certainly don't know anything about who actually manufactures the discs. They see Memorex, Sony or Maxell on the label, it's gotta be good right? Not.

The sad reality of all this is, in the U.S., Memorex is the best selling CD/DVD media, by a mile! Manufacturer...CMC (JUNK).

[ozymango]

Today I have been burning 8x Opto DVD+R disks. Generally viewed as low quality. I am using this media because its faster than RW, I got it for free, and the content is ephemeral. (my emphasis)

This last part is worth repeating, and it's something that I think LordSmurf misses -- no offense. It's not really a question of "crap media." It's a question of "customer satisfaction."

For what it's worth, I mostly use LS's recommendations for media choices, as his past experience and knowledge is quite impressive. But -- in both good and bad ways -- I must admit that Lord Smurf's comments often make me think of my father, a retired engineer and bicycle racer (who still does century bicycle rides at the age of 72!), who also used to own several bicycle shops.

I grew up in bicycle shops, and I very well remember the times when Shimano and Dura-Ace made what was not happily referred to as "Jap Crap" bicycle parts. I'm also of the vintage when the British motorcycle industry turned out the last of it's classic bikes (I own two 1975 Triumph Tridents, last of their kind), when Honda was turning out these noisy little CB350s.

To this day, my dad thinks all Japanese motorcycles and bicycles are crap. He can afford Campagnolo parts so that's his solution for his bicycle.

Again no offense, but I see Lord Smurf's comments about DVD media and I think, computers and technology change so, so, SO much faster than any of these old mechanical things did, and the mindset that one company or production lines makes GREAT STUFF and the other company and other production line makes CHINESE MADE CRAP (or whatever cute acronym you wanna come up with), just makes me smile.

One thing I think both Lord Smurf and my dad have in common -- you forget that the customer IS right, and gets to decide what it is they want. It may not be pleasant, and it may not be fair, and believe me I feel that pain of knowing something other people don't and why do they keep buying this stuff that I think sucks, if they just knew the truth the world would be a better place ... sigh ... ...

[lordsmurf]

technology change so, so, SO much faster than any of these old mechanical things did,

True, technology changes.

However, blank CD/DVD media tends to stagnate. CD media has not changed in many years now, same goes for DVD. Because they are so confined to working specifications that were defined 10 years ago, not much is allowed to change.

CD/DVD is a mechanical product more than technological. That is part of the problem. You can make a bent widget; you can make a warped disc platter.

We really do not see a lot of change in blanks. Ritek made mediocre media in 2001, and they make mediocre media in 2007. CMC made awful media in 2002, and they made the "advanced" of making mediocre media in 2007. Mitsubishi made excellent media in 2001, and they make excellent media in 2007.

We see some progress in drives, but even those advances are unable to overcome the crappy quality of so many discs out there. Drive progress is because THOSE objects are technology, not so much mechanics.

I wish there was more progress. I wish "crap media" didn't exist. But it does. So we talk, we make guides, we have posts.

... sigh ... ...

Pretty much.

[ozymango]

[
CD/DVD is a mechanical product more than technological. That is part of the problem.

We started with CD media.

Then they came up with higher speed CD media.

Then they came up with DVD media.

Then +DVD media.

Then higher speed DVD media.

Then Dual Layer DVD media.

Now Blu-Ray. And HD.

The chemistry involved in all of this, the technology, is astounding.

From Mitsubishi's site, a press release: (taken with a grain of salt, of course!)

"The Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Group is committed to setting the pace for technical advancements in the CD and DVD industries, not just keeping pace with them," said Dr. Yoshimitsu Kobayashi, CEO of Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Group. "And with each increase in performance, CD/DVD burners have become less tolerant to media imperfections and quality media has taken on a whole new level of importance. MKM's extensive R&D capabilities, our strong relationships with hardware makers and Verbatim's stringent quality/performance testing procedures have helped Verbatim maintain its reputation for being first with new disc technologies that rank first in quality. These are also the key reasons we're asked to provide drive manufacturers with benchmark media for their testing and certification," he noted.

Lord Smurf, you are confusing standards with stagnation -- the automobile industry has many standards, but also a tremendous amount of innovation within those standards. Media manufacturers have standards, but as technology changes, achieving those standards can be accomplished by more people with greater ease.

EDIT: This is NOT to say that because companies have access to better materials at cheaper prices that they will automatically use them -- you can still get crappy stuff for even cheaper! But my father was, among other things, both an aeronautical engineer and a packaging designer (designed the "mechanical framework" in which parts are installed), and what appears to be simple "mechanical" design choices are very much connected to the content, and the technology, of the materials used. Put another way -- it looks the same, but it's not.

[oldandinthe way]

ozymango

You seem to have an appropriate understanding of technology and its evolutionary paths.

Often the concept of "good enough" is absent from discussion. To your Dad Japanese parts will never be good enough. There are many motorcycle enthusiasts who look down their noses at "rice burners". I use an LG drive but still have memories of albsolutely awful Goldstar products.

In my experience there are more manufacturers of media that is "good enough" for most consumers than Lord Smurf recognizes. And there are many vendors putting their brand names on media that is good enough - many of them rebranding CMC.

In the early days of writeable CDs, no one could make a CD that was "good enough", even TY.

I use many brands of media, I use only one manufacturers drives and to date all have proved "good enough" for my needs.

Its interesting because my first DVDwriter was a TSST (Toshiba/Samsung) and it appeared that Lord Smurf's media hierarchy was useful to me. After the drive died, and I began using LG drives, choice of media became irrelevant.

I still use more expensive media for more important activites, but also back up the most important on magnetic media;

[ozymango]

In my experience there are more manufacturers of media that is "good enough" for most consumers than Lord Smurf recognizes. And there are many vendors putting their brand names on media that is good enough - many of them rebranding CMC.

You managed to put in one paragraph what I couldn't manage to get out in two postings.

That's really the bottom line and again I do respect Lord Smurf's experience and advice but -- and there's no way this won't sound arrogant and/or dismissive -- a lot of the issues about "media quality" need to consider the fact that the world changes.

And "good enough" can be pretty darn good -- I think we're getting to the point in technology where the standards actually are working pretty well, in that shopping for the "best DVD media" is becoming a non-issue. That is, if the technology is truly mature, pretty much anybody should be able to crank out a decent DVD blank. And for the most part, I'll bet that pretty much all the major DVD "brands," no matter their physical plant origins, are probably pretty good.

It makes sense, both technologically and philosophically -- in the beginning stages of any technology, it can be important to pay attention to who's making the "best" of whatever it is we're looking for, because the differences between "best" and "worst" are far apart. That is, the worst stuff is really and truly bad, sometimes dangerously so (like inferior metal manufacturing in cars and engines).

But as these technologies mature, the differences shrink, usually to a vast degree. And I suspect that's also the case with DVD blanks -- even just a year ago, one had to seriously consider the manufacturing source of a blank in judging quality. But I'll bet that if you conducted stringent tests on media that was considered "borderline" or "bad" this time last year, it would be much improved today.

But it's very hard to give up those guides that served us so well for so long.

[oldandinthe way]

I too respect the effort and organization that has gone into Lord Smurf's website. And indeed it was useful to me.

Its usefulness was reduced when I changed my hardware.

I suspect the reason that it contunes to be useful to the folks who visit this and other websites is their choice of hardware.

I came to LG drives because Gateway switched to them in their systems and their Emachines systems. Since then I have bought OEM and retail LG drives. I know HP uses LG drives, also Lenovo. I believe Dell uses whatever is cheapest.

Given who makes the most retail sales of computers, their choice of drive, and my own experience, I believe the media on the retailers shelves is "good enough" for most users.

We all know that the conventional widsom is DVD-R is the most compatible writeable media. When ever I visit the store with a super deal on both + and - media, the plus sells out first. Does the world come to an end because people are using +R, I think not because it is "good enough".

I've repeated mentioned getting the returned media from a big box store. DVD-R outnumbers DVD+R by a lot. These returned disks are "good enough" for me but not "good enough" for someone with different equipment.

Given the fact that the optical disk industry cannot agree on significant standard of quality, testing methods, or how to measure media longevity it is might hard to see what alternative exists to empirical experience to judge "good enough".

[lordsmurf]

- CD has gotten close to "good enough" albeit some flaws still exist.
- DVD is about where CD was in 1999, where you had good, and you crap, with little in between. And right now, much of it is crap.

There is no magic drive. My experience includes: Pioneer, NEC, Samsung (TSST), LiteOn, Philips/BenQ, LG, BTC, Sony, HP and several others I don't remember off-hand (more obscure, several of them). Some of them don't even make drives anymore. And then several iterations, from several models and brands.

Some of the drives and firmwares have made in-roads, but it's not enough.

A Dell computer full of out-of-the-box spyware is "good enough" too. But I doubt you'd defend that practice. There's quite a few "good enough" scenarios where I bet you'd balk.

I refuse to bow down to telling folks "buy whatever you want, it'll be fine." It's just not truth.

[ozymango]

- DVD is about where CD was in 1999, where you had good, and you crap, with little in between. And right now, much of it is crap.

Lord Smurf, that's a very common refrain with you when it comes to anything technological: It's either great, or it's crap. And that's just silly.

I'm certainly not arguing that all cheap media, or even most cheap media, is great stuff. But it becomes progressively less useful to hear your stock mantra, "X VCR/Media is great, Y and Z are crap," because it's just not correct anymore.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm telling you that my experiences don't jibe with yours. That's all.

[lordsmurf]

That's not true, there's plenty of things I'm entirely indifferent to, as it relates to technology. But DVD media is not one of them, because "neutral quality" media doesn't really exist.

No problems having different experiences.

[ozymango]

But DVD media is not one of them, because "neutral quality" media doesn't really exist.

I'll agree with you on that. I just think there's more good stuff out there than ya might think. But then I am an optimist at heart!

[Grain]

CMC made awful media in 2002, and they made the "advanced" of making mediocre media in 2007.

Their own media that is. They are quite capable though, as they make Verbatims best, both single and dual layer. Prodisc is the other main manufactor of Verbatims, with the recent addition of Moser Baer(sp?), both are widely considered as a little to a lot poorer than CMC's made Verbatims.

[VegasBud]

I would hate for anyone to read this thread and think they can just use any media, and still expect good results. That would be a disheartening and/or expensive mistake.

If you want consistently reliable results with a wide assortment of burners, firmware. and players/readers, use good media. If you haven't already learned what is (and isn't) good media, lordsmurf's website (nomorecoasters.com / digitalfaq.com) is a reliable, real-world reference.

I'm very uncomfortable with the term "good enough", which implies an acceptable level of error. Use of that term may be reasonable when referring to horseshoes, hand grenades, or thermonuclear detonations, but it really seems out of place to hear it used when referring to the reproduction of digital data.

One last thing...just because people don't return bad media to a store doesn't mean it's actually good media...it just means the bad media didn't get returned.

[ozymango]

I'm very uncomfortable with the term "good enough", which implies an acceptable level of error. Use of that term may be reasonable when referring to horseshoes, hand grenades, or thermonuclear detonations, but it really seems out of place to hear it used when referring to the reproduction of digital data.

Don't read too much between the lines, read the actual comments being made.

I'm not implying -- and I don't read anybody else implying -- that there's an "acceptable level of error." What I'm saying, quite boldly, is that I do agree that it's pretty safe to buy name brand DVD blanks. Which you can disagree with, absolutely!

Having also worked in retail, I can tell you that unhappy customers do make themselves known and they are happy to return stuff that doesn't work. I agree that you can fool some of the people all of the time, but it's naive to think that these companies can get away with putting their names on "crap media" and nobody will complain.

Companies do pay attention to customer feedback -- even if it's just because they're greedy, selfish SOBs who want to sell you stuff.

EDIT: And you've got to be kidding me if you think people will read this thread and be convinced one way or another by anything anybody says here. :P

[VegasBud]

ozymango,

Okay, I've read the posts again, and the phrase "good enough" still conveys the same idea to me. Rather than engaging in word parsing, let's just agree to disagree.

What I'm saying, quite boldly, is that I do agree that it's pretty safe to buy name brand DVD blanks. Which you can disagree with, absolutely!

Thank you, and I also accept your right to a different point of view. Hopefully we can agree that some brand name media is better than other brand name media, which may well be better than no-name media. In that case, if the user doesn't have the personal experience to tell which is which, lordsmurf's site is very helpful in making an informed choice.

The fly in the retail-return-theory ointment is the assumption that the people buying the media in stores have enough knowledge and experience to identify the media as the source of a problem. I'm sure some do, but many others don't. The reason(s) why a given media would be returned could be due to a variety of factors, including many that have nothing to do with quality.

No, I wasn't kidding at all. People who come to this site lacking the knowledge and personal experience to make an informed decision about a given topic rely on the advice given by those with more insight, and hope the advice is good. I doubt many here would waste their time trying to help if they thought people were just going to ignore the advice offered, and I suspect most people wouldn't come here to get advice they weren't going to consider.

[lordsmurf]

CMC made awful media in 2002, and they made the "advanced" of making mediocre media in 2007.

Their own media that is. They are quite capable though, as they make Verbatims best, both single and dual layer. Prodisc is the other main manufactor of Verbatims, with the recent addition of Moser Baer(sp?), both are widely considered as a little to a lot poorer than CMC's made Verbatims.

CMC is not making Mitsubishi media. Mitsubishi (parent corporation of the Verbatim company, brand and products) very much oversees the creation of their own products. They just do it at another facility (CMC, Prodisc, MBI), to cut costs of production. They don't let companies like CMC "run free" to make the media. It's very controlled.

The rumors of one plant making MCC inferior to the other is largely unfounded speculation and online forum myth. Online geeks that roost in forums are too apt to believe in conspiracy and wild stories. A few of them had some bad experience, and then cobbled together that half-baked reasoning to explain it away. Sort of how ancient Greeks believed thunder was Zeus throw bolts down from Mt. Olympus. A silly (but entertaining) tale attempting to explain away situations.

There have been varying issues with MCC media in the past, but it was always a small incident, isolated to certain regions or outlets/brands, and corrected in short order.

[lordsmurf]

The fly in the retail-return-theory ointment is the assumption that the people buying the media in stores have enough knowledge and experience to identify the media as the source of a problem.

This is something I cannot stress enough.

And it's not just that.

Many people out there expect for homemade burns to look inferior to what you "buy in stores" (referring to commercially produced discs of your favorite movies). And I don't refer to minor quality difference, but major problems, such as image breakup, disc freezing, audio pops, etc.

I've sat and watched movies with friends, and all of a sudden there are green blocks, the audio pops, the images jerks around some, and then it stops. He or she will go eject the disc, blow on it with their spitty breath, put it back in, and then FF> to the next chapter beyond the mess.

The whole time, I'm sitting with my eyes wide open thinking "what the ****?".

And I swear to you, after I say something, I get a reply of "oh well, it's not a professional job, it's just something I did on my own computer".

As if that's supposed to justify it?

Then I whip out one of my discs. Color laser artwork, nice inkjet disc (unprinted) or pearled silver Verbatim-syle disc, high quality motion or still/audio menus, and clean video and audio that is perfect from beginning to end. Then I get the retarded response of "well I don't have money to do that". Of course, they have the same software I do (TDA, DVD recorder, Photoshop, burning software).

They just do not know anything.

This is your typical consumer. Not only do they not know any better, they actually expect something they made to look like crap. No self respect, no faith in their own abilities.

So as long as that mentality exists, don't expect a lot of flawed products to be returned. There are folks out there who think returns are unethical, who are afraid of customer service reps, who are careless with receipts, who choose to live with flaws because the product is otherwise "good enough".

The world takes all kinds, says the old cliche. These are the kinds that skew the importance of returns in discussing product quality. And they are not a minority, they are a sizeable audience, if not a majority.