New State Laws Target Used-CD Sellers

[rkr1958]

Draconian laws passed in Florida and Utah, and pending in Rhode Island and Wisconsin, restrict retail sales of used CDs.

... stores would be required to thumb-print customers selling used CDs, and acquire a copy of state-issued identity documents such as a driver's license. ...

full story

[pinetop]

How big are used CD sales?
Just about every used CD store where I live, Chicago, has closed. MP3s/Ipods, burners, and the internet has killed their business.

[ozymango]

Yeah, but the fine print reads that this is more about local criminal intent: CDs are just extremely popular things for people to steal (like out of my sister's car a few weeks ago, alas) and then sell for quick change.

So I see this more like those laws putting cough syrup behind the counter so junkies can't make their own meth; it's a pain for us law-abiding folk types, but sadly this is what it's come to in taking a "bit outta crime."

[Ai Haibara]

Of course, this can also easily spill over into the used-game and DVD market, as well. (I think the linked article mentioned it applied to all second-hand merchandise in Florida, but the fingerprinting and such was only (currently) required for (audio-only?) CDs.)

[Marvingj]

Its getting bad now...I imagine a guy on the corner of a bad street that use to sell drugs, now selling hot cds. Get your Hot CDs & placing them in a dope bag....

[MOVIEGEEK]

This is rediculous who buys used CD's anymore?Wherehouse used to but they went out of business.
EDIT:I guess they are still in business:
http://www.wherehouse.com/music/product-detail.jsp?id=2412006

[oldfart13]

Even the pawn shops where I am don't bother with used audio CDs for which you were only going to get 10 - 50 cents each for anyway. Games are still popular but with retailers all but giving them away in remaindered bins that will also kill the used market. Pawnshops here also won't take used VHS anymore so I can no longer get product to sell on Ebay. Lotsa other more lucrative stuff to sell there anyway....

[Rich86]

Consider the possibility this is just more pressure form your friendly RIAA folks who do not want folks selling/purchasing used cd's - when they would much rather make you buy a new cd - or pay every time you listen to a song - or even when you recall the tune in your head . . .

[BJ_M]

im pretty sure this has nothing to do with the RIAA folks , and everything to do with stolen merchandise...



EDIT -- I was wrong, the reasons are just nutz .. wtf is the world coming to ?

[FulciLives]

I live in Pittsburgh, PA in the USA and there is a small chain of stores in my area that do most of their business by selling used CD's and DVD's and Video Games etc.

I admit I don't buy very much when it comes to used CD's but I do buy a lot of used DVD's and sometimes even the odd used Video Game.

I'm happy this store is around.

I don't understand why so many people in this thread are "dissing" on used CD stores? I mean sure you can often find stuff for free on-line but as a collector I would rather have a used CD and have the real thing than a download which is often times 192kbps MP3 at best.

OK OK OK ... as a collector I would rather buy the CD brand new but hey you can't buy everything brand new and a good quality used CD that appears to be "like new" is better to me than some crappy download. Hell as long as the CD and booklet are in good condition I am happy as the jewel case can always be easily replaced.

I guess my point is ... for those on a "budget" ... a used CD is at least the real thing compared to some illegal crappy quality download. And even if you get the best quality download (in FLAC or whatever) and you print out the artwork and make your own custom "bootleg" CD ... well it is still not the same thing and as a collector I don't want no copy.

So I still see used CD stores as something that is needed ... or do THAT many people download shit and care less about having the original???

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vico1]

Old Hippie '60s anthem...
"Every Law that's Passed...Is Another Freedom Taken Away!"
(tho...I think it was meant about the draft, and hallucinogens back then... :P )

[Noahtuck]

FulciLives <-- What he said.....

[Alan69]

I admit I don't buy very much when it comes to used CD's but I do buy a lot of used DVD's and sometimes even the odd used Video Game.

I'm happy this store is around.

I guess my point is ... for those on a "budget" ... a used CD is at least the real thing compared to some illegal crappy quality download. And even if you get the best quality download (in FLAC or

I don't think it was so much 'dissing' these stores, as most are simply gone. Most places don't have enough people buying used CDs to support a store like this.

And for sure, from 40% of their business at the store in the article, there's a lot of used CDs flying around there. Basically steal some more, sell to the store, and store sells to the guy got theirs stolen last week or last month. Store (indirectly) and thief both making money off of recirculating other people's CDs. Take it to only credit and the thieves and likely the bad stores go away. Wouldn't you bet in some areas 50% of the auto break ins are related to this? And trade ins good for only store credit won't affect most legitimate people too heavily, it's the sort of stuff they'd want anyway, but stops the theft for money cold. Bet a lot of stores figure out some back end work around though, to keep new stolen CDs coming in. Something like let them buy with credit but don't put credit on the receipt, and let them return things for money later..

[verchad]

There are a few used cd/dvd stores in the sw burbs of chicago, they also deal in video games. They have never asked for anything other than for me to sign a receipt for what they paid me. I like checking them out occasionally, sometimes I find something you can't find at BBuy or Wally world.

Now, when I was in gamespot or gamestop around christmas, to trade in my xbox and get my xbox 360, they did ask for my driver's license for their info. I had been in a few weeks before and saw this. The "gentleman" who was the customer then got kind of freaked at that request at that point and said he was going to reconsider what they offered him for "his" ps2, controllers, and games and left. I struck up a conversation wth the clerk after that guy left. She said that they've been doing this because of, as mentioned previously, people trying to dump stolen systems for quick cash.

[dnix71]

I was born and raised in Florida. Anyone who buys used off the street isn't well thought of by the police. Pawn shops already have restrictions like that. My guess is second-hand dealers were fencing stolen property because the crooks who were smart avoided pawn shops.

CDs are expensive and attract less attention pawning/reselling than jewelry. There are a few cd trade shops around that don't buy- you can either buy from them or trade 2 for 1. They won't be affected by this if I read it correctly.

I do know people who have had cd collections stolen and then pawned. One got his back because the music "didn't match the customer" A bunch of gansta wannabees swiped Christian cds and the pawn shop owner knew it wasn't theirs.

[adam]

im pretty sure this has nothing to do with the RIAA folks , and everything to do with stolen merchandise...



EDIT -- I was wrong, the reasons are just nutz .. wtf is the world coming to ?

Where do you see the reasons for these laws? I can't find it in any article. I don't see why this would have anything to do with copyrights or the RIAA. The article says they are just an extension of pawn shop laws. The purpose of those are to curb the selling/pawning of stolen merchandize, and to make it easier to identify the individual when it does happen.

[buttzilla]

I can see the riaa looking at it this way if you buy a used cd they only have made money the first time it was sold and not the second time when it was sold used. So I can see a reason why they might`support laws like this. If you can hamper the selling of used cd's and making it harder on merchants who sell used cd's the buyer will have no choice but to buy a new one. Or buy it online from a merchant.

[AlecWest]

Where do you see the reasons for these laws? I can't find it in any article. I don't see why this would have anything to do with copyrights or the RIAA. The article says they are just an extension of pawn shop laws. The purpose of those are to curb the selling/pawning of stolen merchandize, and to make it easier to identify the individual when it does happen.

On average, in my locale (Oregon), a used CD sells for under $10 ... sometimes under $5. Does it make a lot of sense to extend pawn shop laws to cover such an insignificant per-item sale? I'll have to disagree with you, Adam. While the language of the law might not mention the RIAA, I'm certain the RIAA is in their thinking. If it's truly an extension of pawn shop laws, will they also require people to get thumb prints when they buy or sell something of the same value at a thrift store - or require people to get thumb prints when they put furniture or appliances up for sale in stores on consignment? I think not.

[oldandinthe way]

I for one see the RIAA in this. It is not to control stolen merchandise. It is to control counterfeit CDs.

Whereas a thief will not bother to get under a dollar for a used CD a counterfeiter can make a healthy profit at those low prices if he dumps a large enough quantity/

Screwing the seller of used CDs is an added bonus.

[adam]

On average, in my locale (Oregon), a used CD sells for under $10 ... sometimes under $5. Does it make a lot of sense to extend pawn shop laws to cover such an insignificant per-item sale? I'll have to disagree with you, Adam. While the language of the law might not mention the RIAA, I'm certain the RIAA is in their thinking. If it's truly an extension of pawn shop laws

The article actually states that it is an extension of pawn shop laws so I don't see any reason to doubt this. Pawn shop laws apply to all items sold in the pawn shop, not things which the recording industry would necessarily have an interest in. Maybe there's more to it than this. I don't know, that's why I'm asking BJ_M. I don't see anything in the article that says anything about the legislative intent of these laws.

The first sale doctrine of copyright law is very express in saying that license restrictions only apply to the first time an item is sold. Once an end user tries to sell their used CD, the RIAA has absolutely no legal interest in that sale. I don't see any reason to pass these laws for the RIAA unless these states actually intend to simply damage used CD sales for the benefit of retail CD sales. I find the notion ridiculous that they would sabotage this industry. That's certainly not what the pawn shop laws are for.

I don't particularly think these laws are needed, but absolutely it makes sense to cover such small value items...because those are the items that are stolen and then pawned/re-sold most often. I work in the DA's office and we catch people pawning stolen CDs and DVDs all the time. It only takes $50 to be a class B misdemeanor in most states. It only takes a handful o CDs/DVDs to rise to this amount and usually when someone steals CDs they steal a large amount. Just about everytime a vehicle is burglarized all of the CDs are taken and then later sold used. Pawn shops require that you show proof of driver's license and in some states you must leave a fingerprint. The pawn shops are required to keep the goods so many days in case the police department determines that they are stolen and comes looking for them. This is per the pawn shop laws. That's why people often steal CDs/DVDs and instead sell them at stores that buy used discs. No way to track these people. That is what I see these new laws addressing.

will they also require people to get thumb prints when they buy or sell something of the same value at a thrift store - or require people to get thumb prints when they put furniture or appliances up for sale in stores on consignment? I think not.

How often do you think someone burglarizes a home to steal a couch or a coffee maker? Most burglars (theft or auto) steal money, jewelery, and small items in bulk like CDs and DVDs. When someone does steal a larger, high dollar item like a tv, they don't typically pawn it and they certainly don't sell it at a retailer on consignment...they sell it on the black market.

[classfour]

Even 10 years back - in this area - what you brought in, you received an in-store credit for, nothing more. Pretty much kept this kinda thing from working for a cash-starved meth-head.

[BJ_M]

im pretty sure this has nothing to do with the RIAA folks , and everything to do with stolen merchandise...



EDIT -- I was wrong, the reasons are just nutz .. wtf is the world coming to ?

Where do you see the reasons for these laws? I can't find it in any article. I don't see why this would have anything to do with copyrights or the RIAA. The article says they are just an extension of pawn shop laws. The purpose of those are to curb the selling/pawning of stolen merchandize, and to make it easier to identify the individual when it does happen.

there was more info on slashdot - as to the background of the people sponsoring the bill and so forth

[lordsmurf]

I don't see any reason to pass these laws for the RIAA unless these states actually intend to simply damage used CD sales for the benefit of retail CD sales. I find the notion ridiculous that they would sabotage this industry. That's certainly not what the pawn shop laws are for.

Since when has "ridiculous" and "not what the laws were for" ever stopped RIAA?
Not that I necessarily believe RIAA is doing it this time, but they've done it before.

[adam]

I just did some research and have come to the conclusion that this is yet another example of one biased "news" site rewriting an article for their purposes and then 20 others picking up on it. This is how rumors always get started.

Here are the two enacted statutes in question. In Florida the statute is Title 33 Chapter 538 and in Utah it is Title 13 Chapter 32a. Both statutes cover both pawn shops and merchants of second hand goods....ALL second hand goods not just used CDs. These "new laws" that the article is talking about are really just the extension of these statutes to second hand dealers in addition to just pawn shops. This has absolutely nothing specifically to do with CDs, except for the fact that they happen to be one of the many things sold second hand. The intent of these statutes is very clear. They are intended to prevent people from selling stolen goods at second hand stores.

If you look at the PC World article posted above it cites Billboard Magazine as the source. Billboard of course is a music periodical. Here is the original Billboard article on this. Link

They are talking about how these laws governing all second hand goods are hurting the used CD industry. There is no mention whatsoever that the laws are targeted at this industry, and of course they are not. Its simply that this is a MUSIC magazine, so that's they point of the article...how it affects this area of the music industry.

Then PC World (or whoever started this rumor) goes and rewrites the article and takes out lines like, "new legislation aimed at curbing the sale of stolen goods," and suddenly these laws seem like something completely different. There's also that line about how you have to give a fingerprint when you buy a CD. Well yeah that's a direct quote from the Billboard article but they only mention CDs because, again, that's all they are concerned about. In the original Billboard article it is still clear that, under those laws, you have to give a fingerprint when you buy ANY used good from a second hand dealer. But the PC World article intentionally takes this line out of context and makes it seem exclusive to CD purchases. The whole thing is blatant spin.

[BJ_M]

thanks for the update and what it really was about .....

some very slanted reporting

[adam]

Speaking of Slashdot... I posted a reply there similiar to mine above. I cited the two laws and the original Billboard article and explained why the laws were not what everyone was complaining about. My post was deleted. My guess is that it's Slashdot who is responsible for this false story.

[jagabo]

There's also that line about how you have to give a fingerprint when you buy a CD. Well yeah that's a direct quote from the Billboard article but they only mention CDs because, again, that's all they are concerned about. In the original Billboard article it is still clear that, under those laws, you have to give a fingerprint when you buy ANY used good from a second hand dealer.

It's not the purchaser that has to be fingerprinted, it's the seller (to the store).

[AlecWest]

Adam, thanks for the clarification on these two laws. However, as Roseanne Rosannadanna once said, "It's always somethin'" - and a number of loopholes to these laws exist.

1) online used CD stores outside affected states.

2) other sales outside an established storefront within an affected state.

A far bigger $$$ issue than used CD sales - the bain of various state attorneys general - is the sale of untaxed cigarettes by members of the 10 tribes of the Seneca nation in New York - the only tribes that, by treaty, are exempt from tax-reporting laws to individual states. As long as the cigarettes sold are (1) produced on native land, (2) sold on native land, and (3) the seller is a member of the 10 tribes, they can tell state governments outside of New York state to go whistle Dixie. Here are 2 examples:

http://ezsmokes.biz

http://www.threefeatherstobacco.com

Point is, if state attorneys general are hamstrung in attempting to get customer information from these sellers, can you imagine how hamstrung they'd be trying to get customer information from online sellers of used CDs ... much less fingerprints of anybody?

This is yet another example of "feel good" legislation that looks great on paper ... but ultimately does nothing more than redirect sales dollars to out-of-state sellers.

On my #2 point above, there are a growing number of (ahem ahem) multi-family garage sales. There's one house up in Vancouver, Washington that, throughout the course of my residency there (about 20 years), held these sales that seemed to last all summer long. I have no idea whether they were ever scrutinized by the police. But I do remember an article on a shady scenario outside my state.

Two burglars, one in one state, the other a few states away, struck up a deal. One of the burglars would load his accumulated stolen booty into a truck and drive to the second burglar's house. He'd offload his truck and reload the truck with the second burglar's accumulated stolen booty. Then, he'd drive back to his location and, together, they'd have (ahem) multi-family garage sales.

They were caught only because one of the burglars had made some sort of mistake that put him under surveillance by his local cops ... and they followed him in an unmarked vehicle to watch the booty being exchanged.

But, I think the online and phone sellers of used CDs constitute the greatest threat to these laws.

[oldfart13]

New laws in this area (apparently welcomed by the resellers) is that the party selling the merchandise must provide a valid address (no more P.O. boxes) and a valid telephone number before the reseller can accept merchandise. I know of at least one party in my old apartment building for which this is terrible news. I think he liked it better when there was no check on him or where he obtained the merchandise (like outta my apartment)....