Which camcorder have you purchased recently and are you happy with it?

[Captain Satellite]

Wo, MJA! That's very impressive! That's the ZR-500? A 200.00 camera?

[TheFamilyMan]

We replaced our old 8mm with one of these about a year ago: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-DCR-HC96-Camcorder-Review.htm. My wife and I agonized over picture quality vs. features vs. cost. In the end, it was low light performance that sold us on it, since we use it for family point-and-shoot which is about 50/50 indoors. Compared to our old 8mm its low light isn't as good (I rate is as acceptable), but otherwise it's amazingly fantastic over the 8mm. (As mentioned, most current consumer dvcams really stink in low light conditions, meaning indoors). The optic stablization is a great feature, though it has its shortcomings in some low light situations that also may be related to auto-zoom. I can't really recommend this model, for better things may be on the market now. Just something to muddy the waters...Good Luck.

[MJA]

The $179 is the refurb one,but you can check the Canon ZR800

[dun4cheap]

I've done tons of video editing, DVD authoring, conversion, lots of experience. Is MiniDV still the way to go? Lower quality? Is it a format that will be obsolete soon? Looking at HDV specs, it's really way more than I need, although I can afford it. My PC specs are in my profile. I really apreciate the advice, guys.

I disagree, editing HDV is no different than DV. If your in the market for a new camcorder, I would dump SD and move right in to HD... Even if your producing SD DVDs. With twice the resoultion and at such a high bit rate you can pan and zoom on your video and these cameras produce are superb. The HV10 is down to $800 and the HV20 is $960 at Circuit City. Pinnacle Studio and Liquid can easilly edit these format no differently than DV and export them DVD. Studio can even export HD-DVD to regular DVD.

[edDV]

I've done tons of video editing, DVD authoring, conversion, lots of experience. Is MiniDV still the way to go? Lower quality? Is it a format that will be obsolete soon? Looking at HDV specs, it's really way more than I need, although I can afford it. My PC specs are in my profile. I really apreciate the advice, guys.

I disagree, editing HDV is no different than DV. If your in the market for a new camcorder, I would dump SD and move right in to HD... Even if your producing SD DVDs. With twice the resoultion and at such a high bit rate you can pan and zoom on your video and these cameras produce are superb. The HV10 is down to $800 and the HV20 is $960 at Circuit City. Pinnacle Studio and Liquid can easilly edit these format no differently than DV and export them DVD. Studio can even export HD-DVD to regular DVD.

For cuts editing with a digital intermediate format like Cineform I agree. But for any filtering, compositing, transition processing or encoding HDV takes 4-6x longer.

Without a digital intermediate format, search/scan/scrub is going to be a pig just like any MPeg2. As for Pan and Zoom, there are alot of pixels to compute.

To get the extra resolution there are trade offs. Understand the pros and cons then decide.

HDV is good for bright light and can look good but you need a fast computer, a serious editing program and a way to display the result. DV is zippy to edit on low end editing software and mid range computers. Also DV from a semi-pro camcorder looks good upscaled to HDTV.

No fair comparing a $299 DV cam to a $1200 HDV cam.

Pinnacle Studio and Liquid can easilly edit these format no differently than DV and export them DVD. Studio can even export HD-DVD to regular DVD.

How long is the DVD encode for a 1 hr. HVD transfer on your 3GHz P4? That is a good comparison benchmark.

[dun4cheap]

Actually I was comparing $500 Canon Optura DV cameras with there $800 HDV Cameras. The HV10 does pretty well in low lite. 4-6X longer, hmm, I have edited many many hours of multi cam HDV from within Avid Liquid. The editing time was no different than DV footage.

The HV20 does even better in low light. I used my HV10 to film my kids highschool water polo games at night, outside under dimly lit stadium lighting and it did better than those cheap $300 camcorders.

In the end you will get better results with better optics. So your right, you cannot compare a $300 cheap DV camera to a nicer camera with better optics whether it is an HDV or DV format. I can tell you this though, the clarity from HDV compared to DV, I will stick with HDV. The 1920x1080 Cmos Censor on the Canon Camcorder does wonders. When I play video from my media center to my 47" HDV TV its just superb.

[dun4cheap]

Sorry, I missed this question

How long is the DVD encode for a 1 hr. HVD transfer on your 3GHz P4? That is a good comparison benchmark.

For an example I just did a 14 minute timeline with HDV, some old 8mm, some DV video, some 8 mega pixels snaps with pan and zooms from my canon XTI and it took about 25 minutes to encode and have a complete DVD. I had also put together a 5.1 soundtrack as well.

I do a lot of editing, with liquid my timeline renders as I edit without any real delays. I just completed a banquet DVD for my kids Highschool Water Polo teams, it was a 130 minute timeline. 3 Teams, 15 minutes of highlights for each team, 30 minute senior baby section which was all filmed and edited in HD. When I was complete, I authored the HDV timeline and exported it to DVD in about 3 hours total render time. It would have been quicker to export it to HDV, because my timeline was set to render in HDV, so my timeline was already rendered.

My system is now a 3.2 Duel Core processor with 3 gig of DDR 2 Duel Channel, nothing real amazing but editing HDV is nothing.

Sorry guys, for those of you in the market now, I can't recommend any DV camocorders. You are better off spending the extra money and get yourself an HDV camcorder. You will be able to shoot DV or HDV on regular DV tapes. By the way the video quality shooting in DV mode is really good as well, imagine getting an image from a 1920x1080 lens compared to a smaller one. The canon has a built in RGB filter giving you results that you don't normally see in a consumer market.

[Captain Satellite]

Wow, that's a lot to take in. As stated earlier, this camcorder is for shooting family functions and work-related projects, real basic stuff. So I guess I need new programs to deal with all of this.

What programs am I going to be needing? A quick search looks like I'll be paying more for the programs!

[edDV]

Wow, that's a lot to take in. As stated earlier, this camcorder is for shooting family functions and work-related projects, real basic stuff. So I guess I need new programs to deal with all of this.

What programs am I going to be needing? A quick search looks like I'll be paying more for the programs!

The mainstream consumer suite programs like Premiere Elements, Vegas Movie Studio, Pinnacle Studio and ULead Video Studio have premium versions that support HDV.

Next up are the Prosumer mainstream programs like Premiere Pro, Vegas, Liquid, Media Studio Pro, Avid Xpress, etc.

[racer-x]

Or you can do it with Free programs. If you can write an avisynth script, you can feed it to Virtualdub or Wax2 to edit as you like. You can even encode it with HCenc for free.

If you have a powerful enough PC, HDV is very easy to edit. Using Premiere Pro 2, I cn add all the effects and tittles I want and it doesn't skip a beat. I do have an AMD 3800x2 dual-core with 2 GIG ram though.........

[edDV]

Or you can do it with Free programs. If you can write an avisynth script, you can feed it to Virtualdub or Wax2 to edit as you like. You can even encode it with HCenc for free.

If you have a powerful enough PC, HDV is very easy to edit. Using Premiere Pro 2, I cn add all the effects and tittles I want and it doesn't skip a beat. I do have an AMD 3800x2 dual-core with 2 GIG ram though.........

Will HCenc output to HDV format? For example back to tape?

[racer-x]

HCenc can encode to HDV sizes and bitrate, but the file will be just Mpeg-2 and not Mpeg Stream. For it to be a valid HDV file, it needs to be encoded to Mpeg Stream before you can export back to tape.

MainConcept 1.5 standalone encoder can encode to the proper spec HDV Mpeg Stream file. It can get a little tricky if you use multiple programs to do different things. You could of cource do it all within an NLE like Vegas and Premiere.

[Rond66]

I am in the market for a new camcorder - MiniDV or MiniDVD. Which is better and faster for editing? What are the raw formats for each?

[edDV]

I am in the market for a new camcorder - MiniDV or MiniDVD. Which is better and faster for editing? What are the raw formats for each?

MiniDV (or Digital8) is far superior for editing. Format is DV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV
http://www.dvformat.com/htm/features/2000/8_00/dv_format_faq.htm

MiniDVD is MPeg2 video multiplexed with audio into a VOB.

[zoobie]

I just went prosumer HD...
The typical consumer/prosumer/pro is simply overwhelmed these days with new compressions and concepts in camcorder-ology. Little wonder he's cornholioed...
Best bet is to set your personal requirements then read read read.

[turk690]

The Elura 100 is top loading; when mounted on a tripod, changing tapes is much quicker and easier than models that load from the bottom. Since I almost always use a mono- or tripod, I exclude right away any camcorder model for consideration that is bottom loading. Do take note of this, too.

[MJA]

we forgot to ask the dude how much money he wanna burn

[Rond66]

I am looking to spend at most $299. How long does it take to copy from mini DV to a computer? Does it copy as short or long files? Do any mini DV cam record in any format?

[edDV]

I am looking to spend at most $299. How long does it take to copy from mini DV to a computer? Does it copy as short or long files? Do any mini DV cam record in any format?

For $299 you are at the entry level or you can do better on Craig'sList* getting a low usage used higher end model. Many people buy these and never use them. The diffences between a low end entry model and a higher end model will be in the camera optics, sensor and processing.

DV transfers at 1x speed to the computer. This is a limitation of how fast the tape mechanism will play tape rather than IEEE-1394 capability. You can copy any file length.

What do you mean by "any format"? The recording format is DV.


* read reviews at camcorderinfo.com before you buy anything.

[slacker]

I would recommend reading the "Great HD Shoot-Out" over @ http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/The-Great-HD-Shoot-Out---Canon-HV20-Sony-HDR-HC7-...JVC-GZ-HD7.htm.

HDV at the consumer level doesn't appear to be all that fantastic. All of these camcorders have issues of some kind. I'm sure they will be worked out eventually. From a build point of view they aren't any better or worse than other camcorders in this price range.

The prosumer Canon XH A1 and Sony FX1 (NOT FX7) look pretty good but we're talking $2500 - $4000 for these camcorders not including accessories. This is where I am looking now. I'm torn between the two.

Since I shoot sporting events often, I would stay with DV since HDV has problems with motion, except for baseball and golf which has to be the slowest sports known to man. So the real question I'm asking myself now is when would I really appreciate or need HDV?

[slacker]

BTW Rond66,

The Canon Elura 100 for $350 was "Camcorder of the Year" over at camcorderinfo.com. I've had one for awhile and it does everything very well. Read the review.

[kimco52]

I shoot both Digital-8 (Sony720) and miniDV (Canon GL2). I was shooting Dig8 and Hi 8. I went on a 2 camera shoot and my Hi8 was on the fritz and borrowed a small miniDV... Sony, don't remember the model number). When comparing the video between the two.. Dig8 and mini DV, the Dig8 was much better. I had expected them to be fairly comparable but they weren't. The difference was in the size of the aperture. The Dig 8, I believe was a 37mm aperture, the smaller handheld type miniDV was smaller.... maybe about 20 mm. It was also a bottom loader.... worthless for my apps where I use a tripod with attachments. I learned that aperature size is important. I always knew that quality of lens is important but now I want a large aperature. I bought the GL2 and have been extremely happy. It has a great picture because of two reasons...... 3 chip and large aperature.

When I do migrate do HD (inevitable), it will be with a camera similar in size and features to the GL2, not a mini handheld one.

I do a lot of sport events that last 1 hour with no breaks/rests/etc. The one hour limit on miniDV is tolerable when it goes a little long but I cannot stop down and change tapes in the middle. That breaks continuity. The same is true for the Digital-8. I can get 62 minutes on one tape.

[MJA]

BTW Rond66,

The Canon Elura 100 for $350 was "Camcorder of the Year" over at camcorderinfo.com. I've had one for awhile and it does everything very well. Read the review.

you can get the Elura 100 for $299 at newegg.com


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16830120100&ATT=30-120-100&CMP=OTC-Froogle

[racer-x]

Here's some Baseball footage I shot and edited using the Canon HV20 and Premiere Pro 2. I also used Avisynth to do the Slow-motion. The short clip was resized and heavily compressed to WMV-720p. It's 15 mb. The full resolution version is much better quality, but this gives a good indication of what you can expect shooting sports without a tripod:

http://www.fortvir.net/gallery/d/2919-1/big_hit.wmv

(Right-click and save as)

[MJA]

his budget is only $299.

[GeorgeW]

Here's some Baseball footage I shot and edited using the Canon HV20 and Premiere Pro 2. I also used Avisynth to do the Slow-motion. The short clip was resized and heavily compressed to WMV-720p. It's 15 mb. The full resolution version is much better quality, but this gives a good indication of what you can expect shooting sports without a tripod:

http://www.fortvir.net/gallery/d/2919-1/big_hit.wmv

(Right-click and save as)

Hey, cool clip

I was looking at the HV20 yesterday, and think it might be my first venture into HD.

Can I ask you to post the AVIsynth script for the slow-mo...

Thanks,
George

[racer-x]

His budget may only be $299, but other people read this thread also and may want to see what a camera like the HV20 can do.............

To do the slow-motion with Avisynth, you'll need the LeakKernaldient filter and the mvtools filter. Here's the script I used on the m2t source to slow it down to 25% of original speed:

DirectshowSource("myclip.m2t")
converttoYUY2()
LeakKernelBob(1) # (0=BFF, 1=TFF)
AssumeFPS(29.97)#(gives 50% speed)
TimeStretch(tempo=25)#(audio speed %)
smoothfps(60)
assumefps(29.97)
function smoothfps(clip source, float fps) {
fp=fps*100
backward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
# we use explicit idx for more fast processing
forward_vec = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=1)
cropped = source.crop(4,4,-4,-4) # by half of block size 8
backward_vec2 = cropped.MVAnalyse(isb = true, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=2)
forward_vec2 = cropped.MVAnalyse(isb = false, truemotion=true, pel=2, idx=2)
return source.MVFlowFps2(backward_vec,forward_vec,backwar d_vec2,forward_vec2,num=int(fp),den=100, idx=1,idx2=2)
}

[kimco52]

So,
Are you saying you wouldn't use the camera for shooting an autorace?

[racer-x]

kimco52 wrote:

So,
Are you saying you wouldn't use the camera for shooting an autorace?

Who are you talking about and what camera?

If you are talking about me and tha Canon HV20, then of course I would use it to shot an auto race.

[Captain Satellite]

I'm glad to see that this thread was helpful to others. After much thought and consideration, it looks like the Sony HC96 for me.