Frame rates of old movies

[seven_deuce offsuit]

When the films of Charlie Chaplin were filmed back in the 20's and 30's, at what frame rate were these films filmed at? I noticed that if you were to watch one of his films, they would be fast-paced (their movements would seem faster than normal). Does the frame rate affect it at all or is it just something else? Were they filmed at 24fps like movies today, just without a 2:3/3:2 pulldown?

[jman98]

The following Wikipedia article (look at the Projection Speed section):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_film
says that anywhere from 16 to 23 fps was common and a few films were known to be filmed at greater than 24 fps.

Charlie Chaplin certainly made movies in the 1930s, including _City Lights_ and _Modern Times_, both considered classics, but they were shot at 24 fps which had become standard by this time. The era of silent films, which is probably what you are referring to, was essentially over by 1930 with very very few exceptions. Exceptions would include both Chaplin films above, although they both have musical scores and he does talk once in _Modern Times_. There are reasons why Chaplin did not talk in these films which have nothing to do with his voice. His first "talkie" was 1940's _The Great Dictator_. And now you know more than you ever wanted to

[manono]

If you watch one of his silents on DVD, they're usually speed corrected so the movement appears natural. Sometimes, though, some of the action is purposely speeded up as that's supposed to make it seem funnier. When you're talking about the speedy and jerky unnatural movement, that was common on VHS tapes and on TV once upon a time, because his (and others) comedies were shown at 24fps (hard telecined to output 29.97fps), even though they may have been intended to be seen at 16 or 18 or 20fps. The best of his silent films, the ones made for Mutual, are on DVD at 20fps (hard telecined to output 29.97fps).

As jman98 mentioned, all of his films released during the sound era are at 24fps.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

I've always thought that only 24fps films underwent telecine, or maybe I've just never heard of 16-23fps films.

And when you say that some of his films may be intended to be seen at 16-20fps, are you including that those films go through telecine or are they to be seen at a raw 16-20 frame rate?

Another thing, if I shot a video at 29.97fps and used some type of editor to speed up the video so its double the speed, would that mean that if I were to watch it on playback it would be like watching it at 15fps (turned a 6 second clip to a 3 second clip by speeding up the footage)? I'm trying to make a silent slapstick comedy for a school project.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Another thing, if I shot a video at 29.97fps and used some type of editor to speed up the video so its double the speed, would that mean that if I were to watch it on playback it would be like watching it at 15fps (turned a 6 second clip to a 3 second clip by speeding up the footage)? I'm trying to make a silent slapstick comedy for a school project.

It would be like watching it at 60fps.The only NLE that I've seen have the speed effect was ArcSoft Showbiz but you can probably do it in VirtualDub.

[jagabo]

I've always thought that only 24fps films underwent telecine, or maybe I've just never heard of 16-23fps films.

Anything that's not 59.94 fields per second has to be telecined for SD TV. Pulldown as used on DVDs can only increase to a field rate 3 times the frame rate (20 frames per second to 60 fields per second). So anything below 20 fps will have to duplicate frames or be sped up.

[edDV]

I've always thought that only 24fps films underwent telecine, or maybe I've just never heard of 16-23fps films.

And when you say that some of his films may be intended to be seen at 16-20fps, are you including that those films go through telecine or are they to be seen at a raw 16-20 frame rate?

Another thing, if I shot a video at 29.97fps and used some type of editor to speed up the video so its double the speed, would that mean that if I were to watch it on playback it would be like watching it at 15fps (turned a 6 second clip to a 3 second clip by speeding up the footage)? I'm trying to make a silent slapstick comedy for a school project.

Old film cameras were hand cranked (with a flywheel) so frame rate depended on the camera operator's hand. Sound required synchronized tracks so 24fps (crystal oscillator motor driven) was the agreed industry standard. Modern films are mostly 24fps. These are run 4% fast (25fps for PAL). NTSC's 29.97fps is too fast (20%) to simply speed the film, so 2:3 field repeats are used to display 24fps material at 29.97fps.
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

If the film was 15fps, you could run the projector at 14.985fps and repeat every frame. Other speeds require different field repeat compensations.

If your source is video, you can change run speed by using frame interpolation. Most editing programs support speed change. Fancy edit software allows control of instant velocity with key frames and splines.

BTW: the above applies to interlace video and interlace DVD. Progressive DVD (NTSC) stores video frames at 23.976 frame rate. Interlace 29.97 fps playback applies the 2:3 pulldown (field repeat) in DVD player hardware. Progressive playback uses a 3 then 2 frame repeat to convert 23.976 to 59.94 frames per second aka 480p/59.94.

[manono]

Hi-

And when you say that some of his films may be intended to be seen at 16-20fps, are you including that those films go through telecine or are they to be seen at a raw 16-20 frame rate?

If it's on NTSC DVD (or VHS tape, or broadcast over the airwaves), it outputs 29.97fps (actually 59.94 fields per second). If you go and watch them in a movie theater, and they have a variable framerate projector, then you may actually watch them at 16 or 18 or 20fps. But the base framerate can be just about anything. I've seen them on DVD from anywhere from 15fps to about 26fps. Those are the "base" framerates. With the telecine process adding duplicate fields/frames, the output is still 29.97fps.

For your project, you can encode as progressive whatever you want, and then soft telecine it to 29.97fps. Say you decide to do it at 20fps. You encode for that, and then check the Custom box of DGPulldown and set it for 20->29.97. It'll play at 20fps, but output at 29.97fps. You can "telecine" as low as 2/3 the output framerate. For NTSC, this means the minimum framerate is 19.98fps and for PAL, 16.67fps, Lower than that and you have to encode some real duplicate frames to bring it up to 2/3 the output framerate. For example, say I want to encode this silent at 16fps. I have to add a dupe frame in 4 to bring it up to 20fps, and then telecine off of that.

Another thing, if I shot a video at 29.97fps and used some type of editor to speed up the video so its double the speed, would that mean that if I were to watch it on playback it would be like watching it at 15fps (turned a 6 second clip to a 3 second clip by speeding up the footage)?

If you shot it at 29.97fps and you wanted to make it look like a silent by doubling the speed, then you'd play it at 59.94fps. If you have a 16mm camera shooting at, say, 18fps, then you could speed it up a lot by encoding for 23.976fps and then telecine it. Or encode for 29.97fps, but that would look just too unreal, I think.


Edit: jagabo beat me with some of the same points.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

So would that mean I would have to render my video at 20fps first and then transfer it on to DGpulldown for the 20-29.97fps conversion? I have Vegas, I don't know if I can render at 20fps if that's the case. Or can I just render at 29.97fps and then telecine from 20-29.97fps?

[jagabo]

If your frame rate is 20 fps (or above) edit and encode as progressive video at that rate. Then use DGPulldown to apply pulldown flags. Pulldown flags are simply instruction to the DVD player that tell it how to produce 59.94 fields per second from the encoded frames.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few DVD players balk at 20 fps with 3:3 pulldown flags though -- simply because it's very unusual. Alternatively you could perform the 3:3 pulldown in software (I doubt Vegas supports this) and encode as 29.97 fps interlaced but that would be less efficient and degrade the chroma channels a bit.

[edDV]

So would that mean I would have to render my video at 20fps first and then transfer it on to DGpulldown for the 20-29.97fps conversion? I have Vegas, I don't know if I can render at 20fps if that's the case. Or can I just render at 29.97fps and then telecine from 20-29.97fps?

What is the source? Are you shooting film or rendering video?

If the latter I'd consider a progressive DVD format. The only progressive format allowed for DVD is 720x480 (either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio) at 23.976 frames per second.

If this is camcorder video, just use 480i/29.97 and use Vegas or a similar program change the speed by interpolating new frames to speed or slow the motion. Or do as Jagabo suggests by repeating fields.

[manono]

The only progressive format allowed for DVD is 720x480 (either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio) at 23.976 frames per second.

Eh? You sure about that? The only format allowed for NTSC DVD is interlaced 29.97fps. If it outputs interlaced 29.97fps, how you get there doesn't matter. All those guys doing PAL2NTSC conversions encoding for progressive 25fps and applying pulldown to output interlaced 29.97fps are doing something wrong? No, they're not.

Anyway, if seven_deuce offsuit wants to speed up his video so that it looks more silent film like, and if his camera records interlaced 29.97fps, then the way he speeds it up is by pulling out fields and continuing to play it at interlaced 29.97fps. I don't know how the NLEs handle it or if it's even possible, but it's simple in AviSynth. Separate the fields, pull out whatever is necessary to achieve the framerate you want, and reinterlace. The fact that it becomes very slightly jerky upon playback is all that much better, since that's another effect sometimes seen in silent films. So, doing something like:

SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,1,2)
Weave()
AssumeFPS(29.97)

Will increase the framerate from 30fps to 40fps, or the equivalent of increasing it from 18fps to 24fps, as seen in the past when silent films were sometimes played at sound speed. You also have to be aware of the field order, and I hope doing that doesn't mess it up. In addition, he can tint it sepia, or some other old-timey color, and also apply scratches and grain and the like. NLEs are good at adding scratches and noise to make it look old.

[edDV]

The only progressive format allowed for DVD is 720x480 (either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio) at 23.976 frames per second.

Eh? You sure about that? The only format allowed for NTSC DVD is interlaced 29.97fps. If it outputs interlaced 29.97fps, how you get there doesn't matter. All those guys doing PAL2NTSC conversions encoding for progressive 25fps and applying pulldown to output interlaced 29.97fps are doing something wrong? No, they're not.

Well, this separates into what is DVD standard and what can be done to make progressive frames look to the player like 480i/29.97. Here is the way I recall progressive DVD working.

Progressive NTSC DVD format uses 4 frame sequences stored as 8 fields with various repeat field flags that permit non-progressive players to access fields in the 2-3 field pulldown sequence.

Frame 1: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =1 or 1Top 1Bot 1Top
Frame 2: Top Field First Flag = 0, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 2Bot 2Top
Frame 3: Top Field First Flag = 0, Repeat First Field Flag =1 or 3Bot 3Top 3Bot
Frame 4: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 4Top 4Bot

When fields are sequentially accessed in the flag order, 2-3 pulldown is achieved at 29.97 fps rate.
The interlace player read out sequence is 1Top 1Bot 1Top 2Bot 2Top 3Bot 3Top 3Bot 4Top 4Bot and so on.

A progressive player in progressive mode will read the four frames at 23.976 fps rate as
1Top 1Bot weaved into progressive frame 1
2Top 2Bot weaved into progressive frame 2
3Top 3Bot weaved into progressive frame 3
4Top 4Bot weaved into progressive frame 4
and so on

The progressive player then repeats the resulting 480p/23.976 frames 3x then 2x to create a 59.94 frame per second rate or 480p/59.94 fps at the DVD player component outputs.

11122333445556677788999 etc.

As far as I know, this is the only progressive rate allowed for NTSC DVD.

Interlace NTSC DVD format uses 5 frame (ten field) sequences at 29.97 fps rate.

Frame 1: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 1Top 1Bot
Frame 2: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 2Top 2Bot
Frame 3: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 3Top 3Bot
Frame 4: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 4Top 4Bot
Frame 5: Top Field First Flag = 1, Repeat First Field Flag =0 or 5Top 5Bot

Interlace player field readout sequence is:
1Top 1Bot 2Top 2Bot 3Top 3Bot 4Top 4Bot 5Top 5Bot and so on for 480i/29.97 frames per second (59.94 fields per second).

It is possible to fake the player with 480p/29.97 progressive source if encoded with sequential fields as if it were 480i/29.97. The player doesn't notice a difference for interlace output.

A progressive player will attempt to deinterlace the above 480i frames. Advanced progressive players will first analyze for 2-3 pulldown in the 480i/29.97 field sequence. If the pulldown sequence is detected, the player will inverse the pulldown back to 480p/23.976. If pulldown is not detected, the deinterlacer will be employed. The deinterlacer may screw up when presented with 480p/29.97 or it may detect it and simply weave the frame.

Other progressive rates may be possible with various field repeats. These should be passed entact for interlace player output. They may screw up a progressive player deinterlacer.

[manono]

Yeah, I know all that, although others may find it useful. But 3:2 pulldown isn't the only kind of pulldown. jagabo mentioned 3:3 pulldown when going from 20->30fps. And it plays perfectly smoothly, as each frame is repeated 3 times, instead of that 2 3 2 3 stuff of 3:2 pulldown. And PAL2NTSC 25->29.97fps is another kind. Both, and many more, are perfectly legal and can be authored without problems. Donald Graft, the developer of DGPulldown, which allows pulldown to be applied from framerates other than 23.976fps has stated that he's heard of only a couple of players that couldn't handle the sometimes unusual "base" framerates. I've tried on half a dozen different players myself with no problems. Whether the Faroudja chipset in my main player is deinterlacing or playing the original progressive frames, I'm not positive, but it looks good to me. I'm fairly certain it's playing only the progressive frames as stored on the DVD, as I see no frame repeats, as I would see if it were only deinterlacing. Even flag reading players can just ignore the RFF flags and play the original progressive frames as stored on the DVD. I don't know for sure if all do or not, but they also play OK when using software DVD players, such as PowerDVD or WinDVD.

As far as I know, this is the only progressive rate allowed for NTSC DVD.

I have never seen anything that states that any progressive frames stored on a DVD must be at 23.976fps. Since I work with silent films a lot, I've encoded 19.98fps to about 25fps for DVD and everything in between, with no playback problems at all. I realize that being able to do it doesn't make it legal, but an authoring app is looking for interlaced 29.97fps output, and doesn't care what goes on under-the-hood, so to speak.

I tried variations of that script in my last post but kept running into jerky playback. Evidently throwing away some of the fields results in constant field reversals. So I tackled it another way:

AssumeTFF()
LeakKernelBob(Order=1)
SelectEvery(3,0,1)
AddGrain(800,0,0.9)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)
Weave()
AssumeFPS(29.97)
ColorYUV(off_u=-32, off_v=32)
ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True)

This speeds it from interlaced 19.98fps after removal of the bobbed fields to interlaced 29.97fps, a 50% speedup at playback, the equivalent of 16->24fps, commonly seen in silent film playback on TV years ago. Here's a link to a 14 second, 13.9 MB Vob:

http://www.mediafire.com/?doc322zcyoy

I also tinted it sepia and, with less success, added some vertical scratches or noise. I don't know any good AviSynth way to add the old film look. It mostly looks like it's raining. Vegas does a good job giving video the silent film look.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

If the latter I'd consider a progressive DVD format. The only progressive format allowed for DVD is 720x480 (either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio) at 23.976 frames per second.

So basically render to progressive mpeg2 at 23.976fps right from my original 29.97fps source?What would be the next step? I got completely and utterly lost after reading the last few posts.

And would it matter if it was rendered to 23.976 (IVTC) or just 23.976? Vegas gives me the option to render to 23.976 (IVTC), but I'm not sure if it allows me to render at just 23.976, unless of course it's the same thing?

[edDV]

If the latter I'd consider a progressive DVD format. The only progressive format allowed for DVD is 720x480 (either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio) at 23.976 frames per second.

So basically render to progressive mpeg2 at 23.976fps right from my original 29.97fps source?What would be the next step? I got completely and utterly lost after reading the last few posts.

Help us by describing what you are trying to do. Is this film? Are you rendering in an animation program? Where is this video coming from and what is it?

The optimal encoding process is complex if you want to deviate from 480i/29.97 or 480p/23.976. Be specific.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

This is a video/film project I'm editing on Vegas and now I'm in the process of rendering it. All I want to know how to do is to have the jerky movement as silent films back in the 20s, like Chaplin. I really have no experience in adjusting frame rates (separating flags and all that other stuff that was mentioned earlier).

[edDV]

This is a video/film project I'm editing on Vegas and now I'm in the process of rendering it. All I want to know how to do is to have the jerky movement as silent films back in the 20s, like Chaplin. I really have no experience in adjusting frame rates (separating flags and all that other stuff that was mentioned earlier).

"video/film project" is unhelpful.

Are you receiving film from a Kodak lab or an electronic film transfer or are you using an electronic camcorder to source the video?

Is this a rip from a progressive 480p/23.976 DVD?

Describe your source.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

I captured the footage with Vegas from my DV Camera, giving me my DV AVI source footage that I can edit with. I'm not sure if it captures in progressive or interlace as I'm not at home right now so I can't check. I'm not done editing the video but I want to render a mpeg2 sample to see if I can achieve that jerky movement look for my video by doing all that stuff that was just mentioned.

[edDV]

I captured the footage with Vegas from my DV Camera, giving me my DV AVI source footage that I can edit with. I'm not sure if it captures in progressive or interlace as I'm not at home right now so I can't check. I'm not done editing the video but I want to render a mpeg2 sample to see if I can achieve that jerky movement look for my video by doing all that stuff that was just mentioned.

OK so what you have is 480i/29.97 fps interlace DV format video. This eliminates all the film source issues.

Now you want to create an old film effect.

Next question, is standard 480i/29.97 DV tape or interlace DVD your target?

[seven_deuce offsuit]

Eventually it'll be on a DVD, so yeah, interlace DVD.

[jagabo]

I think what you're looking for is for the video to play ~20 percent faster. Vegas will probably do that by throwing away every 5th frame (and leaving the frame rate at 29.97 fps).

Using AVISynth's LeakKernelBob() filter and something similar to manono's earlier script will get you less jerky results.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

I think what you're looking for is for the video to play ~20 percent faster. Vegas will probably do that by throwing away every 5th frame (and leaving the frame rate at 29.97 fps).

How would you do that on Vegas? And for the jerky part, that's ok unless it's too much.

I basically want to do a video like the one manono just posted here. I would use AVIsynth but I don't know how to use it, unless someone can help me with that using AVIedit. I basically want manono's script, since those are my intentions.

Althought I would prefer to stick with Vegas since I'm more familiar with that, or even Adobe After Effects for that matter which I'm sure is possible to do there.

[manono]

Hi-

As long as you have AviSynth installed, the script's easy enough. Here's the full script:

LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\LeakKernelDeint.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\AddGrain.dll")# if you want to use AddGrain
MPEG2Source("C:\Path\To\Test.d2v")
AssumeTFF()# if TFF
LeakKernelBob(Order=1)# if TFF
SelectEvery(3,0,1)# different for amount of speedup wanted
AddGrain(800,0,0.9)# the grain/noise
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)# or SelectEvery(4,0,3), depending on field order
Weave()
AssumeFPS(29.97)
ColorYUV(off_u=-32, off_v=32)# Tint color
ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True)# For CCE, different for other encoders

You'll need to load the LeakKernelDeint.dll and the AddGrain.dll (if you want to use it). They can both be found here:

http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

I was using a DVD as a source, where you have an AVI source, and a BFF one, I believe. So the script gets adjusted:

LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\LeakKernelDeint.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\AddGrain.dll")
AVISource("C:\Path\To\Video.avi")
AssumeBFF()# if BFF
LeakKernelBob(Order=0)# if BFF
SelectEvery(5,0,1,2,3)# 25% speedup,
AddGrain(800,0,0.9)# the grain/noise
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)# or SelectEvery(4,1,2), depending on field order
Weave()
AssumeFPS(29.97)
ColorYUV(off_u=-32, off_v=32)# Tint color
ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True)# For CCE, different for other encoders

Fill in the proper names and paths for the first 3 lines. Where my original one speeded it up by 50%, this one speeds it by 25%. Where mine was TFF, yours is BFF (to begin with), I think. I don't have any DV AVIs on which to test, so I'm guessing here. To test if the field order is correct, add a final "AssumeTFF().SeparateFields()" as the last line (temporarily), open the script in VDub(Mod), and advance a frame at a time. Scroll to a place with motion and hit the right-arrow key on the keyboard to play it. It should play smoothly. If it's jerky with a kind of "2 steps forward, one step back" motion, then you have to switch the SelectEvery(4,0,3) line to SelectEvery(4,1,2). The last line, the ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True), is for CCE. I don't know which encoder you use. Then encode for TFF, as that script makes it TFF. I'm assuming it's already 720x480, so you don't have to crop and resize. You can make a sample available, if you like, a small sample of no more than 5-10 seconds showing motion. Before sending your scripts to your encoder, always test in VDub(Mod) first.

I don't know if you can open AviSynth scripts in Vegas or After Effects. If so, you can leave off the AddGrain line and add the old-timey effects in there, before rendering out. You can PM me if you like, or if you need any help with the script.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

I tried something in After Effects earlier by setting my video at 40fps, and when I rendered it as an AVI, I got a video that played at 19.98fps (at least according to Gspot) seeming like it almost doubled the speed. Would that almost be the same thing as silents films back then? Would I just have to render in Vegas as a 29.97 project and get the same result?

[jagabo]

I don't use Vegas but I'm sure it has functions to speed up and slow down video.

[edDV]

I don't use Vegas but I'm sure it has functions to speed up and slow down video.

Vegas and Premiere do it by frame interpolation. The output frame rate remains 29.97 fixed. That way there is no telecine required assuming a live source.

The nice thing about this approach is video motion velocity can be instantaneously changed using key frames and arbitrarily splined motion curves including backwards motion.

[seven_deuce offsuit]

I don't use Vegas but I'm sure it has functions to speed up and slow down video.

Yeah it does. I'm just confused on how to set the frame rates and I don't think you change a video source's frame rate with Vegas.

The output frame rate remains 29.97 fixed. That way there is no telecine required assuming a live source.

So if I rendered my 19.98fps video on Vegas and it outputs to 29.97fps without telecine, then would it result to a video that outputs at 29.97fps but plays at 19.98fps?

[manono]

My first script above first removed a third of the fields to slow it to 19.98fps, and then I speeded it back up to 29.97fps with the AssumeFPS line. That was a 50% increase in speed. Maybe you did the same thing, or something very similar.

[edDV]

The output frame rate remains 29.97 fixed. That way there is no telecine required assuming a live source.

So if I rendered my 19.98fps video on Vegas and it outputs to 29.97fps without telecine, then would it result to a video that outputs at 29.97fps but plays at 19.98fps?

No, I'm saying Vegas imports your 480i/29.97 DV format and allows your to change speed in any wild way you want and then output as 480i/29.97. To do this, new frames are interpolated. It will also convert 480i/29.97 to 480p/23.976 through frame interpolation but I haven't tried that yet.

Precise speed control is very important with multilayered effects creation. Often you want the fill video and its tracking alpha matte to change speed through the effect.