are ES20 and ES 25 as good as ES10 ?-thanks

[victoriabears]

I am trying to backup a commercial NTSC VHS to DVD, using a datavideo TBC1000 and have tried avt8710.

I cannot get rid of the jitters, it goes without tbc/dnr on, but then I get a really grainy picture.
Have tried straight vc to dvd , no tbc = jitters worse(Obviously macrovision).

Any ideas folks-thanks

[lordsmurf]

I have a VCR from 1981 that doesn't know what an AGC is.

[Marvingj]

I've had some tapes that are old. That the TBC ( AVT-8710 & Datavideo 3000 ) could not get rid of the jitters. I tried two JVC SVHS VCR 7900 & 9911 didn't reduce it. But I did come across Panasonic ES-10, this Baby stop jitters up & down and side to side. Its worth the investment if you can find one. It has some kind of Stablizer in it that actually works for vhs tapes. They stop making it but you probably can come across one on Ebay. Best kept secret.....

[victoriabears]

Take your point Lordsmurf,but I not got one that old.

So it HAS to be the ES10, not ES15, or es 25?-thanks

[Marvingj]

You use the Panasonic ES-10 as a Pass thru, It workks great.. heres a link

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/t309287.html

[victoriabears]

sorry to drone on, but does it have to be an es10 or are any other panasonic dvd recorders like es20/25 as good in this regard -thanks

[ofbarea]

I have only used DMR-E55 and DMR-ES10.

In my opinion the DMR-ES10 was better in this area. I do not know about the other models.

There are a few @ ebay: http://search.ebay.com/dmr-es10_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturnedZ300QQsatitleZdmrQ2des10

[trhouse]

I have an ES10 and have compared its ability to stabilize rolling and jittering with the newer ES35V combo which is the same generation as the ES15 and ES25. The ES20 was a mid generation using the LSI encoder which according to Gshelley61 did not stabilize as well.

The results with the ES10 and ES35V were identical. The changes in the encoders was that the ES10 did not handle DV inputs but the LSI chip did. The new ES35V, ES15, and ES25 all have a new encoder that handles DV input but they all run as hot as the LSI part and require heatsinking. The ES10 encoder is so cool that it does not require any heatsinking and feels only slightly warm to the touch. The other difference is that the ES10 was the last of the 704 by 480 format. The new ones are all 720 by 480.

[victoriabears]

Are you saying it IS heatsinked or a buyer needs to do that?
Is the E35 combo better(as good as) using a jvc vcr with tbc/dnr to a m100s?

Many thanks

[mrwhitethc]

I am up in the air on these 2 as well, does anyone about the JVC M100 vs ES35V? I already have a Mitsu HD 2000 DVHS for playing the tapes along with a Sony for backup but I'm unsure of a recorder to feed too and they are both the same price.

[victoriabears]

The JVC does a very good job of recording from vhs, funnilly enough my on experience is that it does it better when fed with a non JVC vcr !
I've tried the 9911 and it just seems to create problems yet when I feed the 9911 into another dvd recorder its great !
!! again

[orsetto]

I am up in the air on these 2 as well, does anyone about the JVC M100 vs ES35V? I already have a Mitsu HD 2000 DVHS for playing the tapes along with a Sony for backup but I'm unsure of a recorder to feed too and they are both the same price.

There is no middle ground between the JVC M100 and Panny ES35V- very different image qualities. Your choice of Mitsu 2000 vcr as VHS source is excellent, that's what I use. When dubbing to the JVC, sometimes the vcr's TBC/DNR combines with the always-on DNR in the DVD recorder to make a too-soft, over-filtered transfer. In those cases I turn off the filters in the Mitsu VHS (if I don't "really need them"), do an unfiltered dub to the JVC, and it comes out quite nice. The JVC subjectively has much better image quality at 3-4 hour mode than Panny: but use your own eyes, people have argued that point here for 4 years. The Panny does a decent job at SP/2hour mode, it is subjectively "sharper" and "more contrasty" than JVC and this will sometimes make a better transfer when you need to keep your VCR TBC/DNR active. Finally, some JVC decks record "lighter"-looking video than Panny and other makes, this can work for or against you depending on your source material.

BOTH Panasonic and JVC are "love-hate" brands, its hard to sift info that would be useful from the passionate rhetoric. Personally, I've tried just about every brand available (thanks, eBay!) and have settled on using JVC for some things and Pioneer for most others. I was not overly impressed with Pannasonic: I thought the SP quality was only average and I was scared off by a lot of the repair threads in forums. But they do have a distinctive look to their encodes that a lot of people like. Make test runs and use what works for YOUR eyeballs.

[mrwhitethc]

Thank you very much orsetto, your insight has helped me come to a conclusion.

[deuce8pro]

It would be ideal to do things this route. Pass s-video wires from your Mitsu DVHS to the Panasonic and then to the JVC for encoding. The panasonic will function as a tbc and should also have black level expansion. Btw I have to disagree with a post made earlier in this thread, the ES10 doesnt stop all jitters but it does help somewhat.

[mrwhitethc]

I thought about that but then think it would be best to use a datavideo tcbc-1000 instead of the panasonic.

[orsetto]

deuce8pro is giving excellent advice: it sounds weird but a lot of people have found this chain of equipment useful with some problem tapes that resist being "stabilized" by more traditional hardware like the Datavideo TBC-1000. The Datavideo TBC-1000 now sells for a ridiculous price, absolutely outrageous. If you don't already own a Datavideo, getting a second-hand Panasonic ES-10 is a good alternative: they can be had fairly cheaply esp if the drive is bad (I don't think the drive needs to be operational to use the unit as a stabilizer/proc amp/pass through).

In my experience outboard TBCs have been disappointing and did little to nothing to solve the occasional problems I've had with VHS transfer. The Datavideo TBC-1000 particularly is notorious for not really doing much of anything considering its cost: if you suffer from the specific maladies it can cure, you'll love it, otherwise you'll stare at it and wonder what makes it sell for $495. Outboard TBCs are not especially helpful if you are using a reasonably current standalone DVD recorder: their main function is to prevent "dropped frame" sync issues that plague those who use a PC to record their transfers (standalone recorders mfd after 2005 rarely exhibit this problem). About all a TBC will do for a recorder is help with Macrovision, but even there not all of them are completely effective. The TBC/DNR in your Mitsu VCR is WAY more effective at solving the most common VHS issues (grain, chroma noise, tearing, etc). When tapes are extremely jittery using the VCR TBC, you generally have to suck it up and just accept a compromise: turning off your VCRs TBC will cut down some jitter at the expense of a grainier image. Putting a Panasonic ES-10 between the VCR and the final recorder may help some or even let you turn the vcr TBC back on. It all depends. But most of us find internal/external TBCs make jittery tapes worse, not better- there are certain kinds of VHS instability/jitter that is more-or-less "uncorrectable" and has to be tolerated if the tape is irreplaceable. If you're lucky you can trade graininess against jitter to get a watchable transfer, but sometimes its just a lost cause.

[lordsmurf]

The TBC-1000 is a nice device though, especially if you want multiple output.

For $150 on eBay, a rare deal on one (at any point in time):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Datavideo-TBC-1000-Time-Base-Corrector-tbc1000_W0QQitemZ2001900367...QQcmdZViewItem

Just understand the TBC-1000 does not clean the image quality. Only the signal purity.

[mrwhitethc]

That's the one I was looking at, still kinda on the fence if I want to get it. I am seeing if I can get the ES10 as well but also see a few ES35V, do they do the same filtering as the ES10?

Oh well missed out on that TBC-1000

[deuce8pro]

The TBC-1000 is a nice device though, especially if you want multiple output.

For $150 on eBay, a rare deal on one (at any point in time):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Datavideo-TBC-1000-Time-Base-Corrector-tbc1000_W0QQitemZ2001900367...QQcmdZViewItem

Just understand the TBC-1000 does not clean the image quality. Only the signal purity.

Boy, that went pretty fast.