How many disk drives?

[kimco52]

Just an update.....
I have been going around and around with Gigabyte(mobo) on this issue. We have narrowed it down to a problem with the mix between the Promise Chipset and the nVidia chipset on the mobo. They wanted me to send the Promise card so they could run tests. Only after I have confirmed that Promise has tested their board with the nVidia chipset which is used on the Gigabyte motherboard. I have not received any response from Promise as of yet.

[kimco52]

Another update on this problem.
I still have not heard from Promise Technology on their take on the nVidia chipset.

Today, I picked up a SATA controller card with Silicon Image chipset and turned off the onboard SATA controller. The results using that card were identical to using the onboard SATA. So, if there is a problem with chipsets, it appears to be in the Promise card.

I guess I need to be more forceful with Promise or get a different Ultra 100 card chipset/manufacturer to try with the existing SATA controllers.

[Nelson37]

Sorry, lost track of this one for a while.

Sounds like Spanning would be the option that best fits your needs, a Spanned set with a single drive is sort of a null operation. But this would allow the Raid controller to handle the drives, and utilize the system resources in a way that lets you do what you want to do.

Unless one of the two manufacturers finds and fixes the problem, which #1. they are simply not motivated to do, and #2. may not be possible with this particular hardware combination.

Even with a fix, if using the RAID solves the problem, there is no need for any other solution.

[Ron B]

I've had issues with Promise controllers in the past, all my current controller cards have Silicon Image chipsets, no problems so far.

[Nelson37]

Promise cards can definitely have some funky conflict issues.

The OP also got an identical failure using an SI chipset card.

[kimco52]

I must be out of it but what is "OP"?

I have not got a different Ultra 133 yet. I was speaking with a tech and he was wondering maybe if the mobo has a limit on disk space allotments (memory space??). Don't know. I am up there.

Since I tried the separate SATA controller card, which I have since removed, my computer now is having "mouse" problems. I am back to where I was before but intermittently and randomly often, while moving the mouse..... it freezes on the screen for maybe 2-3 seconds. sometimes it is longer... perhaps up to a minute. Everything freezes. sometimes just doing an ALT-TAB will unlock it.

I removed the drivers that I installed for the extra SATA card and that did not fix it. I looked at the processes running and don't notice anything strange. I went to system restore to a week previously when everything was working fine and it still is occuring.

I have no idea what is going on.

[Nelson37]

OP is "Original Poster", that's you.

What the tech is telling is basically similar to my understanding of the problem. There are a limited number of channels available, the SATA implementation complicates this. Add in a third-party BIOS, the Promise (or similar) card, and it's a crapshoot. The Raid implementation is a solution in that it reduces the number of channels used and/or uses a different set. Either way, many boards are similar in that RAID must be turned on in order to use multiple SATA and PATA drives.

First, try a different mouse. For ten bucks, it is worth having one anyway and it is amazing how much problem a defective ten dollar product can cause.

Otherwise, open performance monitor or the processes tab in task manager and watch for spikes in usage. Something is sucking up your CPU cycles. The frequency of the freezes will tell you how long you need to monitor this.

You say "everything freezes", but indicate you have keyboard availability. Press Ctrl-Esc, if the menu comes up, then you are not frozen, just the mouse is. Mouse connected how? USB, PS2, any adapters used?

Possible you may have a defective board, more likely some kind of DLL or Registry conflict, or simply a flaky connector or wire.

With the issues you have had so far, the only way to prove a defective board will be to duplicate the problem with a clean install of Windows with no additional drive controllers installed. Or isolate it to " a USB mouse works but a PS2 does not".

[kimco52]

Thanks for the info. I forgot to mention that I monitored the system in Task manager and did not notice any CPU time being changed. It was sitting at 0. Occasionally there would be a spike if I moved the mouse or did something but nothing abnormal that I could see.

Yesterday, while discussing the problem with a tech in a shop, he mentioned trying another mouse, which I have not done yet. My mouse is a PS2 mouse. He suggested moving the mouse to a USB port and trying that also. I am not using any adaptors. It is a PS2 plugged into the PS2 connector. I don't have a PS2-USB adaptor but I can get one. have another PS2 mouse I can try and I also have an RS232 mouse I could try. But I don't have a USB mouse to try.

The computer with the problems is not the one I use for email and general stuff such as the one I am now using.

[Nelson37]

Don't get the adapter, just get a USB mouse. New mouse on New connector.

A serial mouse, really? And I thought I was the only one to keep such old crap.

Am typing right now on an old IBM keyboard using the PC (fat) connector with an adapter to PS2. These were the greatest keyboards ever made, my brother got one but the other three are mine, mine, all mine, none for you, hahahahhhahhhhaa.

Good to get that out every now and then.

[kimco52]

No, I keep all the old stuff that still works and even stuff that doesn't, I guess. I know what you mean about keyboards. I am also typing on an old AT style keyboard. It is actually got the Tektronix name on it. It is from circa 1990. I have the adaptor also. I love this keyboard better than any I have used since. The layout, and the feel of the keys is what I like. The feeling of the keys when pressed is so smooth. I think ACER made the keyboards for Tektronix back then but am not sure.... it was from what they called a PEP computer they made to act as controllers.

I have a drawer in this desk. It is an old desk that has a side typewriter table that is hidden inside a door. The typewriter is long gone. I use the shelf for "stuff". You open the door and slide out the shelf. In addition to the mice I mentioned, I have an old Microsoft mouse that plugs into an adaptor which varies for the type of output you want.... from circa early 80's. I have a Qtronix rollerball type mouse. Plus my box kit for Visual C++, a bulk videotape eraser and various other goodies.

I am going to try this other mouse and then go do some running around. Possibly pick up a USB mouse if I need to.

[kimco52]

Solved mouse problem with a different mouse. Old one may have a loose/broken wire or it may be just dying.

[lacywest]

some 'older' mobos will do SATA or PATA, but not both.
some that are not quite as old will do both, but you have to tell the BIOS that this is what you are doing.
some will allow both, but only if you set up a RAID.
The PS is a good possibility, but I think you need to read your mobo user manual closely as well.

Check my PC details ... my system does have both ... I've got 7 harddrives mounted in my tower.

My PS is rated at 431 watts built by Enermax the kind with two fans ... one in the rear and one on the bottom.

I have 4 SATAs ... so the other 3 Drives are PATA. One of the SATAs ... is a 500 GB Western Digital.

[kimco52]

some 'older' mobos will do SATA or PATA, but not both.
some that are not quite as old will do both, but you have to tell the BIOS that this is what you are doing.
some will allow both, but only if you set up a RAID.
The PS is a good possibility, but I think you need to read your mobo user manual closely as well.

Check my PC details ... my system does have both ... I've got 7 harddrives mounted in my tower.

My PS is rated at 431 watts built by Enermax the kind with two fans ... one in the rear and one on the bottom.

I have 4 SATAs ... so the other 3 Drives are PATA. One of the SATAs ... is a 500 GB Western Digital.

Further update today...
I sent a message/asked a question of Gigabyte (continuing their dialogue with me) in which I asked:
Is there a maximum amount of "memory" space for disk drives? Not in the number of drives but in the amount of memory area allotted? As in maybe 1TByte is the limit of room for drives?

I added a separate SATA controller card with SI chipset and the results were the same as with using the SATA port on the Gigabyte board, which tends to indicate to me that it is not the mobo SATA port but something else that is confusing the BIOS such that it locks up or freezes.

I got the following response back from them this afternoon:
"This motherboard has been tested up to 500gb
Any higher is not guarante it'll be detected"

This tends to indicate to me that it is a motherboard problem.
As a recap, this is what I presently have:
Drive Size Type
C: 90GB Mobo IDE 0 Master
D: 160 GB Promise 0 Master
E: Varies Promise 1 Master
F: 250 GB Promise 1 Slave
G: 200 GB Promise 0 Slave
H: 4GB Adaptec SCSI 0
I: 9 GB Adaptec SCSI 1
J: 200-300 GB Mobo SATA 0
L: IomegaZip Mobo IDE 1 Slave
M: DVD-R/W Mobo IDE 1 Master
N: DVD-R/W Mobo IDE 0 Slave

The J-drive on the SATA is on a docking module and is either a 250 or 300 depending on what I put in.

The E-Drive is on a docking module and i have about 14 of them ranging in size from 180 GB - 300 GB

So, I have around 850GB +/- without the SATA and the SATA puts me over 1TB. Perhaps that is my problem. If the Promise card manages it's own and looks to the system like 300 GB then that plus the C: drive is around 400+. Adding the SATA of around 300 puts it over the 600.

Perhaps, that is the problem?????

[Nelson37]

Damn, didn't think of total size. I do recall seeing some boards with a 1 terrabyte limitation, did not pay much attention as those numbers were way outside my normal observed range.

That is starting to change, I have two PC with over half a Terrabyte and about 2T total in my home.

The SCSI drives should be not included, SFAIK.

Back in the recently "old" days, individual drives were limited to 128mb without a BIOS extension, but this was easily remedied.

Total size limitations are just not something I have run into, not certain on the exact technical basis for this. The Promise BIOS is unlike the Adaptec BIOS in that the Promise just provides additional channels, the Adaptec is a true seperate controller that does its own drive accessing.

This is where using the RAID kicks in, seperate addressing scheme. These onboard jobs are not the same for all manufacturers, but I know absolutely they will sidestep the total channels available limitation, and due to the nature of RAID, the RAID controller should be handling its own drive accessing like the Adaptec SCSI card. This should seperate it from either the Mobo or OS limitations in standard addressing.

Have you tried the spanned, single drive RAID option and did this solve the issue? If so, were there any problems? Shouldn't be, drive might be slightly faster or slower but function should be essentially the same.

Figures on the mouse. Always remember, if you can replace it for less than $20.00, why spend 2 hours troubleshooting it?

[kimco52]

I just finished playing all kinds of combinations and haven't resolved/fixed anything. I set up a new SATA drive of 200GB as a spanned raid but windows did not see it. I must be doing something wrong but don't know what. I get the RAID BIOS during the POST and press the required key to get into it and set up the drive as a spanned single drive RAID. This still did not get out of POST with all 4 drives on the Promise Card. With one drive disconnected, it does. I have the Windows drivers installed but Windows does not indicate it's existence. I tried it clearing the disk and not clearing the disk... fresh without formatting then I disabled the RAID and booted normally (less one Promise Drive). I went into Disk Manager, saw the unformatted drive, partitioned it, formatted, assigned it a letter J, and Windows recognized it as J-Drive with about 189 GB. Accessing no problem. Shut down, plug in the fourth drive on the Promise card and it does not get out of POST again. Pull that drive off the promise card, Start up again and re-enable the RAID, set it up in Spanned mode again, it boots up but can't find it or any reference in Windows.

So, I must be missing something somewhere but I don't know where.

The mouse didn't cost anything because I already had it sitting in a desk drawer. But it has been working all evening.

[kimco52]

One more thing. Once I have enabled RAID and booted up, I cannot get back into Setup unless I shut down/turn off the computer AND unplug the keyboard, wait 30 seconds and plug it back in. Otherwise, the system does not recognize pressing the DEL key to get into setup when turning on the computer. If I disable RAID, I can press DEL at startup and get into Setup every time.

Strange.

[Nelson37]

That is bizarre enough to justify an RMA on the motherboard.

It may be that flaky circuitry has been the problem all along, or this may be just an additional issue.

Is the new mouse USB or PS2 like the original? If USB, this could indicate a problem with the MOBO connector which could be related the DELETE key issue.

When you make the spanned raid, it should show up in Drive Manager as an unpartitioned drive, requiring partition and format. Changing from RAID to standard controller should require the same steps each time.

[kimco52]

Both the mouse and keyboard are PS2.

[kimco52]

I got the RAID working with the drive as Spanned. It works correctly and windows sees it..... as long as there is one drive missing from the Promise card. Same is in all the other descriptions. I think this in one problem that is not going to be solved anytime soon, having spent more time on it instead of working with the computer to produce stuff.
I have a working thing that will be ok. As long as I have either the SATA or one Promise drive unplugged (both SATA and the Promise drive are on separate mobile racks) I can use the system. As long as I only use them for "projects", I don't need them plugged in all the time and can work with only one of them plugged in at a time.

I think the next time I will start fresh with a new MOBO, upgrading the system and starting with a fresh OS installation. Not ready to do that right now.

[RabidDog]

Looking at your drives you have two drives there which frankly are pants, tke them out and use them as doorstops (thats 4gb and 9gb) also the 90gb is a bit on the low side when you have a 500gb. So simplify your life (and your power supply's) AND DITCH ALL THESE.
Also think about getting rid of the zip drive, is it really necessary when you have 4.5gb dvd=rw ?? or at least 650mb cdrw.

Now definitely think about re-installing win/xp, as obviously you have added and added to your system like topsy.
A fresh re-install should sort out some of your drive conflicts and maybe some of your drivers. Was the promise card in when you installed XP? NO? ALso try to make sure that your removable drives are the highest drive letter.. dont install any programs to the removable drives either..

My 2c is that spanned raid for home use is a disaster waiting to happen (in fact all raid for home use is worse than useless)

[SingSing]

Except 2.5" lower capacity USB HD. Most USB HD kits come with external HD supply.

[Nelson37]

Agree spanning is typically bad, but a spanned single drive RAID poses no additional level of risk. There is no actual spanning going on.

The whole point of the RAID was to implement a different controller architecture, which in some cases gets around some board-specific limitations on IDE controller, Using both SATA and PATA on many boards creates some issues.

Sometimes you just gotta decide it's one of those things where "this really should work, there is no good reason it won't work, but it just does not work and while it would be nice to have, I can work around it and it just is not worth the hassle."

Have you done any real-world tests, as oppossed to benchmarks, comparing data transfer rates for the SCSI, PATA, and SATA drives? Considering the power consumption, small size, and speed comparison particularly in a non-networked environment, the SCSI drives may not be worth it. Also if you want a couple more in that size range, PM me as they are not getting used and the Domestic Advisor is advocating some old parts removal. As in "get this crap out of the garage". They are just not large enough to be of any real worth, the only thing I might want the performance for would be hi-def capture, and the files are too big.

[kimco52]

Yeah, the SCSI drives are small and I plan to remove them. They are currently the longest running disk I have. Those have been running constantly since 1994 with no problems and the existence of them or non existence on this computer makes no difference to the problem.
I have many files on many zip disks... lots of old video clips. I don't have the time to go through and bump them to CD's or DVD's. They are fine where they are. I am not doing anything new with zip disks except using them for regular backups for Quicken and Quickbooks.

Yes, the C:drive is small. I have been trying to replace it with a larger drive but the images have problems. I originally did it to the SATA drive but that was not successful 100%. I also tried it with a new PATA but it would not take my Photoshop CS2 "validation" and kept giving me error messages so I sorta gave up at the time.... ran out of experiment time.

I have no programs loaded on any drives other than C-drive.