How to re-encode mix of telecined and progressive?

[rbatty11]

Not sure if I posed correctly but here's my project: Converting NTSC laserdisc to DVD. Capture ld to pc as avi, then run avisynth script and re-encode in cce. I'm stuck in that when I view the avi in vdub to see if it's truly interlaced or hard telecined, some portions of the video are hard telecined (2:3) and some portions are not as I scan thru the entire video?? The portions that are not telecined, I believe, the 4,5 frames are duplicated (not sure? will check again tonight). But they are not interlaced for sure.

How do I deal with this when running a avs script for re-encoding in cce? Thanks for any help.

[manono]

If it is as you describe, an IVTC will work.

[edDV]

Or encode interlace and let the player deal with it

[rbatty11]

Great, thanks. Now, for the life of me, I can't get used to resizing 4:3 to 16:9 and am getting very frustrated. It seems easy enough, until I try to actually write a script to do it. Hopefully, you can help me.. again!

My source is NTSC 4:3 letterboxed. I threw the avi into vdub and used null filter to figure out how much I had to crop--got 40 top, 48 bottom = 88 total. This left me with the source as 640x392 = 1.633 original a/r. (right??) With other projects, I ended up with actual height of less than 360, which meant I had to add borders to get to 360. In this case, I get more than 360 ==> 392. Does this mean I have to crop again to get it down to 360?? Sorry, I'm confused..

Here are my scripts for 2 previous 4:3 LB to 16:9 conversions, which again are confusing to me because one crops/adds border before resizing and the does it after(???):

loadplugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
directshowsource("C:\NORTH\AVI2\movie.avi")
assumetff()
converttoyuy2(interlaced=true)
telecide(guide=1)
decimate(cycle=5)
crop(0,68,0,-68)
lanczosresize(720,460)
addborders(0,10,0,10)

loadplugin("D:\VIDEO_TOOLS\dgmpgdec109.zip\DGDecod e.dll")
loadplugin("D:\Path\To\decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\Path/To/movie.d2v")
assumeTFF()
telecide(guide=1)
decimate(cycle=5)
crop(0,60,0,-64)
addborders(0,2,0,2)
lanczosresize(720,480)
converttoyuy2()

But both of the above I can somewhat understand, only because I'm cropping/adding to get to 360 height and then resizing to 480. But this 392??

loadplugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
directshowsource("F:\movie.avi")
assumetff()
telecide(guide=1)
decimate(cycle=5)
crop(0,40,0,-48)
addborders(0,??,0,??)
lanczosresize(720,480)
converttoyuy2()

Or should I just be cropping and not adding any borders?? Man, did i mention that i'm confused? ;-)

[jagabo]

fitcd

[rbatty11]

Thanks, jagabo, but I'd really like to understand this, conceptually, so I can apply it to any conversion project.

[jagabo]

Add to the width to make the AR 16:9 (696x392), then resize.

[rbatty11]

OK.. I see where you got the 696 (392 x 1.78).. but still not following.

[edDV]

Why capture square pixel 640x480 and not 720x480 or 704x480 DVD formats?

Laserdisc was actually 486 lines in NTSC. Square pixel 648x486 didn't set well for digital so most reduced square pixel to 640x480. Nothing lost if letterbox.

[jagabo]

OK.. I see where you got the 696 (392 x 1.78).. but still not following.

DVD only supports two display aspect ratios. When a movie is wider than 16:9 black bars are added to the top and bottom to fill out the 16:9 frame. Since your video is less than 16:9 you have to add black bars to the sides to fill out the 16:9 frame.

[rbatty11]

edDV, when I captured, i simply hooked up my Canopus ADVC100 via firewire and had a huge avi file when done. So i'm pretty sure i captured at full resolution of source (720x480). I came up with the numbers using DJRumpy's guide on resizing here.

jagabo, if i do what you're saying, won't I have 4:3 LB?? meaning, a borders on on all four sides of video on a 16:9 TV? As for source original a/r, do I divide 720, 704, or 640 by 392??

Sorry, guys.. thought i had some sort of grasp on resizing but need to read thru the resizing guide again.. will do so.

[jagabo]

jagabo, if i do what you're saying, won't I have 4:3 LB?? meaning, a borders on on all four sides of video on a 16:9 TV?

After cropping away the top and bottom black border as you did before, add black borders to the sides, then resize to 720x480. When you play this back on a 16:9 TV the picture will fill the screen top-to-bottom, there will be black borders right and left.

[rbatty11]

jagabo, OK, that is not what i want as an end product, though. I probably wasn't clear enough, sorry. What I want in the end is 16:9 Anamorphic Widescreen. I definitely want the entire width of the 16:9 TV filled; as for height, I know there will be black borders if the source height is less than 360 and none if more than 360 (i think?? who's on first base??)

[jagabo]

The instructions I gave you were for anamorphic widescreen. Your source, after cropping, is less wide than 16:9. Your choices are (after cropping):

1) Add black borders to the left and right edges to expand the frame to 16:9.

2) Stretch the image to fill the width (distort the aspect ratio).

3) Crop the height even more leaving a 16:9 frame.

[Pinstripes23]

It will be a 16:9 anamorphic WS picture. If you want the ENTIRE 16:9 screen filled you will have to crop MORE of the top n bottom, so you will lose some of the picture. Is that what you want? What you have is an ar of 1.633 as you stated, which is less than 1.78. In order to keep that ar you have to add borders. The only way to not have to addborders is when you have a 1.78 ar movie. And to do that with your movie you crop 32 more pixels(any combination) top n bottom, so that it comes out as 640x360.

[rbatty11]

So avs script s/b something like this:

crop(0,40,0,-48)
addborders(28,0,28,0)
lanczosresize(720,480)

??

[rbatty11]

So anything less than 1.78:1 (or 16:9 a/r), I have to crop from sides; anything more than 1.78:1, corp top/bottom? OK, think i'm starting to get this. Makes more sense to me now b/c last night the only way i could get 16:9 by was cropping more from top/bottom and and i did NOT want to do that.. AND.. I don't know why, but i thought cropping left/right was a 'no-no' (don't ask me why??). I was limiting myself to exclusively cropping from top/bottom (as accustomed from my previous projects--must open my mind up ;-)

So is this close? I definitely don't want to crop any more from top/bottom b/c I will be cropping out actual video portion of movie!

loadplugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
directshowsource("F:\movie.avi")
assumetff()
telecide(guide=1)
decimate(cycle=5)
crop(0,40,0,-48)
addborders(28,0,28,0)
lanczosresize(720,480)
converttoyuy2()

[jagabo]

That is correct for a 640x480 square pixel source. You would be better off starting with the original 720x480 capture and avoiding multiple resizing.

[Pinstripes23]

So anything less than 1.78:1 (or 16:9 a/r), I have to crop from sides; anything more than 1.78:1, corp top/bottom?

I don't look at it as cropping but how you are going to add borders to the avs script for DVD. To me cropping is basically just to crop any black away, and isolate the picture. But if ar less than 1.78:1 - add borders to left and right, more than 1.78:1 add borders top and bottom.

Your script looks correct as far as resizing.

[jagabo]

If you are starting with the original 720x480 source the addborders() line should be changed to:

addborders(32,0,32,0)

The rest can stay the same.

[rbatty11]

Thanks jagabo, Pinstripes, et.al.

jagabo, both you and edDV stated that I should capture 720x480. Like I said earlier, I captured laserdisc via a Canopus ADVC100 and ScenalyzerLive (setup indicates NTSC, 720x480). So I think i did capture at 720x480 (?). Trying to figure out how this would change anything and how do you decide which?? Think i need to read up more on square vs. round pixels...

Meaning, should I have calculated original a/r as 720/392 = 1.84 vs. 640/392 = 1.63 ?? If so, this means i must addborders top/bottom and i must change my script.

Edit: Pinstripes, you are correct, it's not cropping from sides, it's adding borders. thx.

[rbatty11]

I'm trying to understand the connection between 720, 704 and 640 ?? And when/how to know which to use. jagabo, I noticed you resized using 64 (addborders) to get width from 640 to 704. Again, why?

[jagabo]

This might help:

http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/conversion/

Basically, if your working with the original 720x480 frame the individual pixels are slightly narrower than they are tall. To fill the same amount of space (horizontally) you need about 10 percent more pixels. So I increased the amount used in addborders() by 10 percent (28 * 1.1 = 30.8) then rounded up to an even 32 (if you're working in YV12 you have to add multiples of 2). Even if you stuck with the original 28 the small difference wouldn't be noticable on the TV.

[edDV]

Digital broadcasting is 704x480 or 704x576 (PAL)

A 720x480 capture will result in 8 pixels of analog blanking on the left and right. Since laserdisc is analog NTSC TV standard, it too will get a bit of blanking left and right. This isn't a problem for TV display. It gets hidden by TV overscan.

704 and 720 have nonsquare pixels that vary by picture aspect ratio. 4:3 and 16x9 are supported. The ADVC-100 would have captured 4:3 with letterbox.

[rbatty11]

OK.. finally got it to work.. thanks to all. jagabo, link is helpful in understanding.. haven't finished but can tell it'll help clearing up some things. Was hoping you guys would indulge me in some more related questions b/c I'm finding this project a bit strange -- besides the fact that the movie looks horrible after re-encoding at an avg bitrate of 4800 (3-pass cce).

Maybe a dumb question but.. were there ever any laserdiscs that were released in 16:9 anamorphic? i didn't think so. but I ask because I re-encoded the movie 2x, one 4:3 LB and one 16:9. I used the following script for 4:3 LB and ended up getting the movie in what I think is 16:9 b/c it fills the entire widescreen TV area:

loadplugin("D:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb.dll")
directshowsource("F:\movie.avi")
assumetff()
telecide(guide=1)
decimate(cycle=5)
lanczosresize(720,480)
converttoyuy2()

I checked my settings on my DVD player and it's set to 16:9, but shouldn't it be playing with borders on all four sides? Or is that only when upconverting thru either DVI or component? The dvd player I checked on was a standard (non-upconverting) Sony set top.

Lastly, like i said before, quality was horrible in the end.. pixelation, blurry/hazy. The movie is 120mins and I used avg 4800, min 2000, max 9000. M=3, N/M=4, SEQ=1, checked Add end seq code and Close GOP's, LUM=0-255, no filters, DC, Zigzag and Progressive.

Any tips to improve quality?

[manono]

Maybe a dumb question but.. were there ever any laserdiscs that were released in 16:9 anamorphic?

Yes, but not very many.

checked my settings on my DVD player and it's set to 16:9, but shouldn't it be playing with borders on all four sides?

Yes, it should play with black on all 4 sides. You made sure to encode for 4:3? Maybe you have your TV set for some kind of stretch or zoom mode. Maybe your DVD player stretches all 4:3 material automatically. Some do that. Do you have any other 4:3 DVDs with which to check?

Any tips to improve quality?

It's 4:3 and it's from a laserdisc. 4:3 widescreen DVDs always look like crap on a widescreen TV set, especially if stretched or zoomed. How does the source capture look? The same or better? You could try and sharpen it before encoding.

[jagabo]

Why aren't you capturing as DV AVI at 720x480? That's what the ADVC 100 outputs. If you are capturing at 720x480 then there's no reason to use LanczosResize(720, 480) in that script.

[manono]

Why aren't you capturing as DV AVI at 720x480? That's what the ADVC 100 outputs. If you are capturing at 720x480 then there's no reason to use LanczosResize(720, 480) in that script.

Good point. I didn't even think of that.

[rbatty11]

Source LD is not that great so I guess that's partly to explain. And yes, I did re-encode at 4:3 (for 4:3 LB).

As for lanczosresize(720,480), I didn't realize that would matter. I always put that line in there even if source was the same. Yes, used ADVC100 and captured at 720x480. Will there be difference in video quality if I delete that line for the 4:3 LB re-encode? If so, significant?

And I do need the resize line for the 16:9 conversion, correct (b/c of the cropping/adding borders)?

[jagabo]

As for lanczosresize(720,480), I didn't realize that would matter. I always put that line in there even if source was the same. Yes, used ADVC100 and captured at 720x480. Will there be difference in video quality if I delete that line for the 4:3 LB re-encode? If so, significant?

If your source is already 720x480 it will do nothing. The main reason I was asking is because I wanted to make sure you hadn't converted to something else first.

And I do need the resize line for the 16:9 conversion, correct (b/c of the cropping/adding borders)?

Yes, you must resize back to 720x480 (or 704x480).

BTW, 4800 kbps should have been adequate for a letterboxed video encoded at 4:3. But you ought to try a short section at 8000 kbps and see how that looks.