How would I change the order in which chapters are played, please?

[Alex_ander]

So is there any other reason you would think the method you just posted is "better" or are there fewer steps or anything else that make it better?

I expected it would allow natural rewind/feed forward across all chapters saying 'better' but it actually didn't at testing. But it can be faster to edit that way.
If that type of navigation is important for you, 'replace block' instead of 'substitute' in steps I've just described solves the problem completely. Tested it. This physically rewrites block order (the same way as at re-authoring).
The first 2 methods just edit navigation commands, this can be useful for creating multiple versions of playback (playlists) on the same DVD, you can't do it by rewriting blocks with 'replace' command (you'd need differently rewritten files for each playback version with correspondingly increased total file size). So you can do physical replacement for just one PGC1 and remove the PGC2 in the end (as described in method 2) to keep original file size.

[spyhawk]

Edit: the thing with time-line navigation is not true (probably due to the fact physically block order remains the same), tested in MPC. If desired, block order can be rewritten using 'replace block' command instead of 'substitute block'.

I'm not sure what you mean by time-line navigation. I might've forgotten, but where did I say that? How does physical block order remain the same with substitution - the same V/CID just in different program? Are you looking at the Video Title Set, Domain Content preview? If that's the case, that is normal as the block preview is ordered by V/CID. If you're looking at Program Chains, Domain Content preview, it is ordered by PGC and cell. 'Replace block' will change the V/CID order. Look at the V/CID in Ifoedit or PgcEdit for both operations (substitute and replace) and you'll see the difference.

There is one small trivial issue, it's not important but if we're discussing perfection, when you rewind within a chapter, it will go back to beginning and stop there and start playing the chapter from the beginning. Also if you forward within a chapter it will forward to the end of the chapter and just stop there and start playing the next chapter.

This is one of the limitation of creating multi-PGC title. Playback is already non-seamless. If this is important to you, then use the substitute or replace approach, it doesn't matter which as long as it is in a single PGC. Then you have no problem FF/REW across chapters.

[c627627]

It's not particularly important to me but let me get this straight:

When making a physical DVD to be played in DVD players only, which therefore only has one playlist, then the second method should be used which allows for REW / FF across chapters and not just within one chapter:

Click on + next to Program Chains > Right click on PGC 1 (title 1) > Duplicate [This creates PGC 2 (title 1)]
Go to PGC1 'programs' list.
Right-click on each cell and use 'substitute block' command to select blocks in desired order.
Delete PGC2 when finished.
Now edit button menu commands (simply change numbers for addressed chapters in command options).


Is that right?

[spyhawk]

Yep.

[Alex_ander]

Good morning (here )!

Edit: the thing with time-line navigation is not true (probably due to the fact physically block order remains the same), tested in MPC. If desired, block order can be rewritten using 'replace block' command instead of 'substitute block'.

I'm not sure what you mean by time-line navigation. I might've forgotten, but where did I say that?

That's from page 2 (I mean the thing you are calling slidebar):

This method works fine as well. However, you will not be able to time seek or use the slidebar on your software player as the time map table will not created for multi-PGC title.

If you intend to permanently change playback order, then the only way is to physically reorganize the cells in the order you want by substituting blocks. Then there's no need to use the playlist order method via cell commands. So just right-click on the program and select 'Substitute block'.

I'm sure that physically re-writing block order would along with changing to desired playback order enable time-seek, but your suggestion to do it with 'substitute' option doesn't: a)rewrite blocks in different order (unused blocks will be deleted as usual, if any; the rest will keep their written order), b)make navigation the same as with re-written block order (tested).

How does physical block order remain the same with substitution - the same V/CID just in different program?

'Substitution' has a special meaning inside DRP, different from 'replacing'. It means reusing existing blocks in PGCs and only works for blocks from the same VTS. If all blocks are used in PGCs, substituting doesn't change file size (otherwise decreases it by deleting unused ones). E.g. in our case you can create PGC2(title1) and re-order blocks by substitution in PGC1, then use both for playback order selection. Since this doesn't change file size (tested it by outputting complete DVD), blocks can't be rewritten 2 different ways. So they are not re-written in different order.

Are you looking at the Video Title Set, Domain Content preview? If that's the case, that is normal as the block preview is ordered by V/CID. If you're looking at Program Chains, Domain Content preview, it is ordered by PGC and cell. 'Replace block' will change the V/CID order. Look at the V/CID in Ifoedit or PgcEdit for both operations (substitute and replace) and you'll see the difference.

When I'm looking at VTS, I see the blocks in order that will be used for writing VTS_01_x with all its PGCs and they can be written the single way: if you use 2 PGCs, one of which has custom block order after substitution, you don't write blocks differently (even if a PGC with original block order is deleted). If you use 'replace block' command for re-ordering all blocks in one of the PGCs, this doubles file size unless you delete the PGC with original block order (before this you see inserted duplicated blocks in VTS view). So replacing rather that substituting (using duplicate PGC as a tool) works as wanted (at exporting as well).
I'm not a fan of PGCEdit and don't run it often enough to tell whether 'substitute' means the same in it as in DRP. BTW, is there at all setting entry PGC in PGCEdit (couldn't find it)?

[Alex_ander]

It's not particularly important to me but let me get this straight:

When making a physical DVD to be played in DVD players only, which therefore only has one playlist, then the second method should be used which allows for REW / FF across chapters and not just within one chapter:

Click on + next to Program Chains > Right click on PGC 1 (title 1) > Duplicate [This creates PGC 2 (title 1)]
Go to PGC1 'programs' list.
Right-click on each cell and use 'substitute block' command to select blocks in desired order.
Delete PGC2 when finished.
Now edit button menu commands (simply change numbers for addressed chapters in command options).

Is that right?

Use 'replace block' instead of 'substitute block', this gives seemless playback.

[c627627]

Good morning (here )!

I'll redo everything then. Thanks for clearing it up.

[It's 4 am, good night! ]

[Zodraz]

Oh well. You needed four pages to find right solution.

1. Yes, you should not use multi-PGC title, but only one PGC.

2. Yes, you should not use Substitute block, but Replace block.

3. Instead of the Programs window which you get by click on PGC in DVD Tree pane, it is better to do this inside of the Domain Content window which you get by click on Program Chain.

4. You don't need to create duplicated PGC.

5. It would be better if you replace a bitmap of the menu background, than to change VM commands.

[Alex_ander]

1. Yes, you should not use multi-PGC title, but only one PGC.

Depends on goal, if one wants to create several playback order versions, new PGCs and new titles can be organized of existing blocks by just modifying ifo's. One way is making muti-PGC titles (we talked of just one; too much editing but it's not a bad thing, DLP authors promote its merits in their help file), the other is making extra PGCs (each one assigned to its own title) with different block order (this is achieved by substituting; replacing doesn't work here due to duplicating blocks physically). In case you need fixed playback order, it is better to rewrite blocks.

2. Yes, you should not use Substitute block, but Replace block.

This also depends on whether or not you want to organize different versions of playback order, if not then better to Replace blocks and leave a single PGC.

3. Instead of the Programs window which you get by click on PGC in DVD Tree pane, it is better to do this inside of the Domain Content window which you get by click on Program Chain.

No, by clicking on PGC and selecting Blocks instead of Programs you don't get the replace block option, though PGC block view is useful in giving you details on which block displayed here in which program and cell of the highlighted PGC is used. If you select Program chains or Video Title Set instead, you have that option but you can't replace blocks without rewriting ones you want to just move to a different place. You can't even insert empty blocks for replacement here.

4. You don't need to create duplicated PGC.

You do. If you don't temporarily do this you'll need to insert empty cells and then replace them (deleting old ones after replacement), otherwise you will not be able to use just replaced blocks. In the end you delete the duplicated PGC.

5. It would be better if you replace a bitmap of the menu background, than to change VM commands.

If you mean re-arranging buttons in still menu page (to keep old button commands), it is not always possible to do this way, it would only work in case of e.g. rectangular subpicture elements (like bullets or thumbnails) but wouldn't in case of text buttons highlighting since you can't edit subpictures (or export them for editing, it would be nice to have such an option from Dimad). Maybe new possibilities will open with page 5 .

[Zodraz]

1. Yes, you should not use multi-PGC title, but only one PGC.

Depends on goal.

There is a talk about re-arranging chapters, right? Here it is a goal. If you want same behavior as on the original disc, you should keep same structure. This means title with one PGC. This means continual navigation through all chapters. This means seamless reproduction between cells.

I don't need to mention how multi-PGC titles is complicated for re-encoding DVDs, and other problems with them.

2. Yes, you should not use Substitute block, but Replace block.

This also depends on whether or not you want to organize different versions of playback order, if not then better to Replace blocks and leave a single PGC.

As I said before, here we have specific demand - to make a disc with re-arranged chapters. I am not talking globally which approach is better.

3. Instead of the Programs window which you get by click on PGC in DVD Tree pane, it is better to do this inside of the Domain Content window which you get by click on Program Chain.

No, by clicking on PGC and selecting Blocks instead of Programs you don't get the replace block option,

Read carefully what I wrote. I didn't mentioned selecting Block window after clicking PGC. I suggested using of Domain Content window which you get after click on Program Chain.

If you select Program chains or Video Title Set instead, you have that option but you can't replace blocks without rewriting ones you want to just move to a different place. You can't even insert empty blocks for replacement here.

You can replace blocks and the effect is a same as using Replace block in Programs windows of PGC. But, in Domain Content you could see a frames representing cells which is much easier for work.

No, you don't need to insert empty block for replacement. Did you tried this at all?

4. You don't need to create duplicated PGC.

You do. If you don't temporarily do this you'll need to insert empty cells and then replace them (deleting old ones after replacement), otherwise you will not be able to use just replaced blocks.

No, you don't need to duplicate PGC. No, you don't need to insert empty cells. Try for yourself if you don't believe me. I just did it like I said without any duplicated PGC and empty cells. Which version are you using? You could try 3.6.1.

5. It would be better if you replace a bitmap of the menu background, than to change VM commands.

If you mean re-arranging buttons in still menu page (to keep old button commands), it is not always possible to do this way, it would only work in case of e.g. rectangular subpicture elements (like bullets or thumbnails) but wouldn't in case of text buttons highlighting since you can't edit subpictures (or export them for editing,.

Yes, I mean on re-arranging buttons. It is in many cases easier than to change VM commands. It is even needed because of the aesthetic reason. Let say that original menu is like this:

[Button 1] Speak to Me/Breathe in the Air
[Button 2] On the Run
[Button 3] Time

Let say that we are swapped song 1 with song 3. We need new menu like this:

[Button 1] Time
[Button 2] On the Run
[Button 3] Speak to Me/Breathe in the Air

This couldn't be done without replacing menu background.

Yes, you could edit subpictures (but, you need additional software)

[Alex_ander]

There is a talk about re-arranging chapters, right?

Not quite sure, the very first question was 'How would I change the order in which chapters are played?' You can either leave the content untouched if it is important to archive it or rewrite parts in different order without ability to seamlessly join audio (it doesn't only matter in case the video is a set of independent clips separated with blank/mute frames or fades). The second way is a trivial task for DRP and wouldn't need a single page (just 3 lines already written). OK let's assume the task is to rebuild content permanently. Then it's solved.

I don't need to mention how multi-PGC titles is complicated for re-encoding DVDs, and other problems with them.

As simple, if you don't follow the idea of re-encoding by program chain as sometimes recommended, and encode VTS content instead (block order is the same, DRP outputs ifo/bup's only as modified files).

Read carefully what I wrote. I didn't mentioned selecting Block window after clicking PGC. I suggested using of Domain Content window which you get after click on Program Chain.

Domain Content is available from Program Chains or VTS; since 's' was missing I thought you meant selecting a PGC itself .

No, you don't need to insert empty block for replacement.

True. I've been under impression of changing block order using 'substitute' only command (this needed that trick with extra PGC). Blocks for 'replacement' are available from the complete pool of content registered with project(s).

you could edit subpictures (but, you need additional software)

PGCDemux+DVD Subtitle Decoder+Photoshop +DVD Subtitle Encoder+Muxman... easier to generate a new one and replace (or re-author) . Post #100.

[c627627]

Where do you see post # in the thread?

I did what Zodraz suggested to see what would happen:
1. Click on + next to the Video Title Set that contains the chapters to be rearranged > Click on Program Chains

2. Domain Content window (Top right) > Right-click on each cell > Replace block... >

3. Click on the Pool # that contains the chapters to be used > slide right to get to the desired block (chapter) and click on it > OK

It would be nice if the blocks were labeled by numbers here but they are not, so you have to count them.

4. Repeat to place all the blocks (chapters) in the desired order.


Here are my conclusions: Obviously this is much quicker and less complicated then the multi PGC approach for the purpose of just creating one physical DVD disc with one custom song order, right?

However, let's look at the real Pros & Cons: I used PowerDVD to test this and I noticed that some custom chapters are REW'd and FF'd through real nice but some would stop at the end of chapter (if FF) is used and it would be like that for quite a while then resume FF.


Then I noticed that this approach requires complete remapping of all the chapter buttons on the main menu whereas multi PGC approach did not require this obviously. In addition to remapping the buttons you would need to edit the actual menu graphic to change chapter numbers displayed next to songs.



So which is actually better & faster in making a perfect DVD:


First of all, why was there pause-less REW /FF between some chapters and not the others?
Could it be that I created custom start/finish chapter points in some chapters but not the others?


On my DVD player, the only Con of the Multi PGC approach is no REW /FF across chapters. The pro is that menu chapter graphic is accurate as is.

The con of the single PGC approach is that it would take longer to edit the Menu graphic then it would to make a multi PGC DVD. The pro is that it is quicker to make a single PGC DVD but the menu graphic would be inaccurate, even if chapter numbers would need to be remapped.


So again, main question is why was there pause-less REW /FF between some chapters and not the others on the single PGC rearranged DVD?

[c627627]

Yeah, I'd like to know how to extract the menu picture, and how the edited picture would be reinserted, and how the buttons would be reassigned just so I know how to do this but frankly, if having a menu from which a specific song can be started is important, multi PGC approach is actually quicker then redoing the 42 song menu graphic in Photoshop.


Zodraz mentioned possible compatibility problems if multi PGC approach is used, what's that about please?

[Zodraz]

Menu button re-arranging doesn't have anything with the organization of cells inside of the title. You could take approach with single PGC, after that you could do your mambo-jumbo with VM commands (as you did with Multi-PGC), and you wouldn't need to change menu background either.

But, I think that it is non-sense if I have one order in menu and another during playing (please, take a look on my example with 3 songs). Because of that I suggested to replace menu background. Not to mention menus that have too complicated VM command navigation which is better not to touch. As Alex_ander wrote, if you have rectangle buttons of the same width and height, you could only replace a bitmap of the menu background (Export frame + PhotoShop + Muxman + Replace with still). I any other cases, you should also replace the subpicture.

I don't know why you have a problem with navigation of chapters. You should try to create a new project from the ground with the original disc. You should also check in Programs window if all cells have seamless attribute, and you should check if any cell have some Cell command. You could also save test DVD folder with File / Export test DVD and put it zipped on some free web server (e.g. www.yousendit.com), so I could check where is a problem.

[c627627]

Thank you for suggesting things to check on. I found Cell 1 and 28 (strangely) did not have a seamless attribute. We should conclude that if done correctly, single PGC approach would result in the cross chapter REW / FF ability.


• Multi PGC menu would display the wrong song number but the buttons would lead to correct individual song names, so it's an imperfect (but acceptable to some) solution. No cross chapter REW / FF ability but everything else should work except I was hoping you'd post more about these potential compatibility problems with multi PGC DVDs.

• Single PGC menu would be absolutely useless, requiring editing. Everything else should work.


Assuming we all know how to edit graphics with a third party program, it would be nice if more detailed instructions were posted on how to extract menu pictures for editing and how to reinsert them and then assign buttons to lead to correct chapters.

[c627627]

Wait, wait.

Right click on chapter button > Edit button command... > Type in the chapter # where the button should lead to.

This makes the Single PGC approach equivalent to Multi PGC approach plus it's quicker AND you get cross chapter REW / FF if everything was done correctly.


OK, so Single PGC is definitely the way to go if making only one physical DVD with one custom order of songs.


So then how do you extract menu pictures?

[c627627]

Hey Zodraz, I figured out why only some chapters had cross chapter REW/ FF ability!

I fast forwarded from chapter 1 then wrote down which chapters froze, which were OK:

1 > froze 2 > ok 3 > froze 4 > froze 5 > ok 6 > ok 7 > etc.

Sure enough:
I edited start or finish points of chapters 1, 3, 4,

I did not edit start/finish points of chapters 2, 5, 6


It therefore appears that cross chapter REW / FF is not possible for chapters whose start/finish points were edited.

[c627627]

Discovered something else: Some songs do not stop but transition into new songs but there is a transition to a new chapter.

These songs are consecutive.

Muliti PGC still inserts a pause, there is an interruption in the audio whereas a single PGC has no pause between these consecutive chapters and no interruption in audio at the moment of transition.

[Alex_ander]

Assuming we all know how to edit graphics with a third party program, it would be nice if more detailed instructions were posted on how to extract menu pictures for editing and how to reinsert them and then assign buttons to lead to correct chapters.

1.In DVD tree highlight menu PGC with buttons (red icon means there are some). If the page has a motion intro cell, select the cell with buttons in 'programs', then you'll see background with buttons in video preview window. If it is a motion menu (you'll lose motion feature anyway), select a frame to export, otherwise right-click now, select 'export frame' and save it. You'll have a 32 bit bitmap. After editing save it as 24-bit (otherwise in next step Muxman will output blank frames without a warning).
2.Open Muxman and select your edited .bmp as source file. Exit options page that opens (you don't need changing anything there). Then set destination folder in the bottom line, be careful to not point at existing DVD folder (files will be rewritten). Press 'start' for encoding.
3.Open your DVD and encoded background(s) in DRP as two separate projects. Go to the place in DVD project from where you exported that frame and select 'replace with still' from right click, browse for imported background in content pool (it will be shown as 'movie', not menu) and confirm replacement.

This can only work in case the menu sub-picture doesn't have text for highlighting, just rectangles or bullets. You don't see it in DRP, only in a player. If only text characters are highlighted in buttons, you'll need to replace sub-picture stream. I don't know any easier way than authoring a new menu for replacement from old backgrounds. E.g. you can do it in TDA2(3) by making a project from e.g. test DVD exported by DRP. Then pages can be replaced using 'replace block' (this also needs old button commands to be assigned to new buttons and color lookup table correction).

Muliti PGC still inserts a pause, there is an interruption in the audio

This should have been expected: navigation between non-adjacent cells takes time on physical DVD, in software player it is almost unnoticeable.

Where do you see post # in the thread?

Latest active forum topics (home page), last reply # is shown in 'Replies' column .

[Zodraz]

• Single PGC menu would be absolutely useless, requiring editing.

Wait, wait.

Right click on chapter button > Edit button command... > Type in the chapter # where the button should lead to.

This makes the Single PGC approach equivalent to Multi PGC approach

Are you reading what I wrote? I already said same thing. If you change VM commands, you don't need to edit menu bitmap, even when using single PGC. But, this is some you should avoid for many reasons. I don't want to repeat what I already wrote about that approach.

It therefore appears that cross chapter REW / FF is not possible for chapters whose start/finish points were edited.

You are doing something wrong. How did you got this start/finish points edited? Cut to here and Cut from here should works without a problem.

Just to clarify some thing. Are you working with original DVD disc or is it re-authored one which you got with DVD Shrink? If you are working with original disc and want to retain same DVD structure with all extras, menus... you should continue to use DRM. In any other cases, it is much better to use some DVD authoring tool, e.g DVD-lab, as many others already stated on the very first page of this long thread.

[c627627]

This should have been expected: navigation between non-adjacent cells takes time on physical DVD, in software player it is almost unnoticeable.

My concern is making physical DVDs. We're talking about adjacent songs. There is still a pause between them even though they remain next to each other because one song transitions into the other because the first song was just an intro. Still, Multi PGC always results in the pause.

Thanks for instructions on how to edit pictures! I'll do that to see how it's done.


Zodraz, I can use another test DVD to experiment. I'll rearrange the chapters without touching *anything* else. If it works, then I'll use Cut to here and Cut from here to edit chapters in the middle. That way all the first chapters should forward through until the middle IF what I suspect is true. If you're right, then it should forward through the entire DVD.

[c627627]

Results of my control test. Source: Unedited untouched original DVD disc material.

Nothing was changed or touched except I went to the Domain Content window > Right-click on cell > Replace block... >

I replaced first four chapters with other chapters on the same DVD. Touching nothing else: File > Export DVD


First I opened the original DVD material with PowerDVD, sure enough FF went across chapters with no problems.

Then I opened the edited DVD material and encountered problems as soon as Chapter 3 was hit. From Chapter 3 to Chapter 4: froze again. Since I only replaced first four chapters I wanted to see if FF was OK with the rest. Sure enough FF from 6 to 7 to 8 etc. had no problems.


So can you take an an original DVD and changing nothing else, simply go to Domain Content window > Right-click on cell > Replace block... > replace the first few chapters > and then File > Export DVD.

If you can FF through those first few chapters without problems, that would be proof that this method can work if done correctly.

[Zodraz]

Sorry, but I really don't know what is happening to you. I just tried this which I talked about and it works as it should. I did such thing many times. There is not a freezing with FF/REW.

You didn't answered on my several questions. I couldn't help you if you don't give me more information. If you don't want to send your test DVD folder, could you make a screen-shot of this problematic project, before any editing? Expand Program Chains node in the DVD Tree, click on the specific PGC and make visible Programs, Cell Commands and Extras windows.

[c627627]

Thank you. I understand you opened a retail DVD, went to Domain Content window > Right-click on cell > Replace block... > replace the first few chapters > and then File > Export DVD.

I understand that edited DVD content then was FF through across those few chapters (with which software?) And you are using the latest version of DvdReMake?


Yes I can post screen shots and/or upload the entire project but mine is an individual case and I'm mainly trying to establish if chapters can be FF without pause after first few are replaced in the Domain Content window. Thank you for confirming that if they can't, it's user error. I thought Alex_ander couldn't do it either but I may be wrong.


I'll look into it more with different DVDs and see, I'd like to test out the concept of replacing bmp menu files first. I haven't started yet, I'm surprised to hear that apparently if there is a moving menu, it can only be replace with a still picture?

There's no software that lets you just insert a picture with edited chapter names and everything else stays the same?

[c627627]

Open Muxman and select your edited .bmp as source file.

How and where?

[Alex_ander]

Browse with the button in top right corner.
BTW, I don't have problems with replacing blocks. I don't often use FF but yesterday checked my recent DVD9=>2xDVD5 backups where I put end credits on disc1 by replacing blocks. In one case I had even joined this way material from different sources (extras were from the part of the concert only broadcasted on TV). Fast forward and rewind work properly in WinDVD through the joined blocks. Clicking once on FF doubles it (displayed on screen), next click sets x4, then x8 and playback goes smoothly.

[manono]

I'll look into it more with different DVDs and see, I'd like to test out the concept of replacing bmp menu files first. I haven't started yet, I'm surprised to hear that apparently if there is a moving menu, it can only be replace with a still picture?

You can replace it with whatever you want, motion video included:

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic313743.html

There's no software that lets you just insert a picture with edited chapter names and everything else stays the same?

Scroll down to The Easy Way section at the bottom of the guide.

[c627627]

Thank you. I'll try that. I guess you also confirmed that single PGC is the way to go for making edited physical DVDs.

[c627627]

3.Open your DVD and encoded background(s) in DRP as two separate projects.

What is DRP?

[manono]

DVDRemake Pro?