Send DV through Firewire to a DVD recorder

[nlec]

A couple of months ago there was a thread in the DVD Recorder forum about recording video on a DVDR that originates in your PC and is sent over a Firewire connection. I said that the Panasonic DMR-ES20 would not record such video. As it turns out, that's not 100% correct.

I discovered my Panny DMR-ES20 will, in fact, record over the firewire connection from my PC. The limitation is not the DVDR, it's the lack of software for the PC. I found that if I stream DV out of my PC over Firewire on the isochronous broadcast channel (63) the DVDR sees it and records it just fine. The big problem doing this with Windows XP is the lack of software and drivers.

For the technically inclined, there is a device driver call inside 61883.sys you can make called Av61883_Connect. You can specify either a point-to-point connection or a broadcast connection, but contrary to what Microsoft says in its MSDN documentation, 61883.sys will not create a broadcast connection.

Available PC software that writes out to a Firewire device (such as a camcorder) uses the AV/C protocol. My Panasonic DVDR does not implement an AV/C interface, however, so it is not recognized by any software. On the other hand, isochronous data on the 1394 bus (such as streaming DV video) is essentially available to any device that wants to receive it. The second limitation arises from the fact that no PC software will just blindly stream out through an OHCI Firewire card without first making a connection to a specific device for which a device driver exists. And the only reason for that is that Microsoft does not permit it. Only point-to-point connections are allowed by Microsoft's drivers. Any attempt to create a broadcast connection is immediately rejected.

There is no good technical reason why broadcast connections are denied. The code to handle them exists in the MS drivers; they just refuse to allow anyone to use it. It is an artificial restriction. I was able to patch two bytes in 61883.sys and, along with a Kernel Streaming 2.0 (AVStream DirectShow) device driver I wrote, successfully stream DV out of my PC and record it on my DVDR. I'm still working on it and it's at a really early stage, but I think it will eventually be able to provide a Firewire broadcast output capability to many other programs without requiring any other third-party device drivers to be installed other than the patched 61883.sys (which can coexist happily with the original unmodified driver).

I'm not distributing anything yet, and maybe I never will but I just wanted to recap my progress over the last few months. I celebrated the other night when I saw my video being recorded by my DVDR over a Firewire link from my PC for the first time. This probably isn't a big deal for most people but it was for me. Anybody with halfway decent drivers for their camcorder can do this already, but it's all the other Firewire equipment for which there are no Windows drivers that this will be useful for.

In my DMR-ES20 user's manual it says this:

The DV input terminal on this unit is for use with DV equipment only. (It cannot be connected to a computer, etc.)

I can't tell you how good it feels to prove them wrong

[redwudz]

That sounds like an interesting project. My Pioneer DVR has a FireWire input. Please keep us appraised of your progress.

[Dosdan]

I preview from Sony Vegas Video Editor via the PC's fireport port -> miniDV cam's firewire input-> MiniDV cam's A/V output -> Monitor's A/Video Inputs. The monitor ends up getting both video & audio.

I'd like to do the same for say PowerDVD's or Vdub's output.

1. With your method would it be possible to stream PowerDVD/Vdub video output via firewire?
2. What about including sound?

[nlec]

When you say your MiniDV cam's AV outputs, you mean something other than Firewire, right? Something like composite and audio RCA jacks (red, white and yellow)?

I'm not sure about PowerDVD or Vdub. I think Vdub uses VfW and this is DirectShow. I have PowerDVD but never noticed if it can be configured to output to anything but the screen. I don't think it can.

What this will do is look like a camcorder to your PC. If a program can be set up to output to a camcorder via Firewire, then it can be set up to use this "device" instead. It will then pump out DV over Firewire and not care whether or not anybody's listening. It is up to the devices on the Firewire bus to decide whether or not they want to listen to the data stream. It goes out on the broadcast channel and is not targeted to any specific device.

It's not a DV codec. You've got to get your DV video from someplace else, either as a file or from a program that can render it to a Firewire device in real time. Right now I'm using it with GraphEdit and it appears as a WDM Streaming Rendering Device. You can think of it as a reverse-capture device.

The audio goes through since it's encapsulated in the DV stream (one of the nice things about DV since you completely avoid most audio synch issues). It had me worried at first because I wasn't getting any audio, but then I noticed the audio cables weren't plugged in I plugged them in and it was fine.

I still have to add in the AV/C code to emulate a DV tape subunit. A lot of it is in place but I put it on the back burner when I got hung up making PCR connections at the 61883 level. Debugging that was what led me to the isochronous broadcast restriction. It'll take another few weeks to finish up the AV/C part.

[rbatty11]

I'm not distributing anything yet, and maybe I never will but I just wanted to recap my progress over the last few months.

Hmm.. Just curious, but if you do successfully accomplish this, why wouldn't you "share"??

Just to confirm (because I really am clueless about the subject matter), are you saying if I capture to my pc in DV avi format, I can actually hook up my JVC DMR100 and record via firewire to DVD-R. When you modified the driver, is it exclusively for the Panny recorder, or could it be used for other recorders?

[nlec]

The patch to the driver is not specific to any hardware. In effect, the existing driver does this in 2 places:

if (mode == CMP_Broadcast)
    return STATUS_NOT_SUPPORTED;

The patch makes them

if (0 == 1)
    return STATUS_NOT_SUPPORTED;

There are 2 modes: CMP_Broadcast and CMP_PointToPoint. The code that comes after the check is capable of handling both. It's almost as if MS added that mode test as an afterthought for some reason.

Search CMP_Broadcast and CMP_PointToPoint on Google and you will see the sum total of all public knowledge on the subject. Notice how MSDN doesn't say that CMP_Broadcast is useless and does not work as advertised.

[KenJ57]

nlec said

On the other hand, isochronous data on the 1394 bus (such as streaming DV video) is essentially available to any device that wants to receive it.

I wish you knew how much this capability is desired for video editing applications.
Dosdan said

I preview from Sony Vegas Video Editor via the PC's fireport port -> miniDV cam's firewire input-> MiniDV cam's A/V output -> Monitor's A/Video Inputs. The monitor ends up getting both video & audio.

I'd like to do the same for say PowerDVD's or Vdub's output.

I have Adobe Premiere Elements v2 and Magix Movie Edit Pro v11, both of which are capable of sending the current video/audio from the built-in monitor window out the Firewire port. I use an ADS Pyro A/V Link A/D converter to feed the S-Video inputs to a high-quality 13 inch TV. Once a video editor gets to SEE EXACTLY WHAT THE RESULTING VIDEO LOOKS LIKE in real-time, you never want to go back!
Trouble is, those commercial applications do not have SERIOUS filters like AVIsynth and VirtualDub. We (I said WE) need a way to do non-linear video editing with serious filters and - be able to see the output real-time on a TV.
nlec said

I think Vdub uses VfW and this is DirectShow.

Being a retired IT guy, I am appreciative of the technical obsticles but it has no berring on the requirements.

Right now I'm using it with GraphEdit and it appears as a WDM Streaming Rendering Device.

The only WDM Streaming Rendering Device available on my machine in GraphEdit is my C-Media audio on my ASUS motherboard. Although I build my own PCs and have maintained/troubleshoot PCs and networks I am not a programmer, and this stuff can drive me up the wall! Why can't I just pick out a suitable device from GraphEdit and hook it up (rhetorical question)? When ever I swap components GraphEdit always complains!!

Search CMP_Broadcast and CMP_PointToPoint on Google and you will see the sum total of all public knowledge on the subject.

Amazing! Only three hits and two are from this topic!

Maybe if I shout, someone will hear me.
DV OUT VIA FIREWIRE FOR VIDEO EDITING AND VIEWING IS A GREATLY DESIRED CAPABILITY!!
Are there any developers listening?

[Colmin]

Hello nlec,

I just did a Copernic search on exactly this subject and amazingly your post turned up. I'm really keen to use your invention, my theatre can't accommodate another cable. Please advise how I can duplicate your experiment. Purchase / donation OK with me and non-disclosure agreement guaranteed if wanted.

Cheers

Col

[bhartmann10]

Perhaps this is not the proper thread, but it matches closely to the issue I am having.

I have a Panasonic DMR-ES20 and when recording from my JVC mini DV camcorder, I stop the recording at the end of a segment of my tape, but the DVDR does not write to the disc and does not allow me to continue recording on that disc. It basically freezes the system.

Ideas?

Brian

[Colmin]

Brian,

I was notified directly to my email. of your post. I'm sorry but I haven't got any further with understanding my own problem and don't understand yours. Probably I'm the wrong person at this stage.

Rgds

Colin

[oliebeak]

Has there been any more progress been done I would love to beable to send to my dvd recorder via the fire wire link if i conect it via the fire wire i get the yellow mark on 61883.sys.

i found if i use my camcorder then use the video/audio out on it to the dvd recorder and the firewire from pc to camcorder i can get it to record but thats a cheat lol

Cheers Jim

[Colmin]

Hi Jim,

I'm sorry but I gave up on my original endeavours and I really can't help you.

Rgds

Colin

[djnice]

nlec: Any update for this project?

[Mel_3]

Has anyone heard from the originator of this thread "nlec" and anything about the status of this project?

We want to be able to "broadcast" video out several firewire ports so the PC works like a firewire distribution amp.

In other words take video either from...
- a file on the PC or
- a camera or another computer or another firewire device conected to one of the PC's firewire ports...
and then broadcast it out several other firwire ports at the same time.

And if "nelec" is not around or reachable maybe someone here knows how we can do this.

Thanks for any help.

[redwudz]

nlec hasn't posted since Oct 17, 2008, so we don't know the outcome of his experiments.

[edDV]

I just read the original post.

I've attempted PC to DVD recorder IEEE-1394 DV transfer in the past without success. When I hook up a DV camcorder all is good so long as the DVD recorder can handshake and control the camcorder. This led me to believe camcorder machine control was being used as the gatekeeper to restrict IEEE-1394 port use to camcorders.

[Teqnoqolor]

I wrote a short tutorial on how to connect a computer to a Panasonic DVR with a firewire cable and how to stream a video file to it.
You need to use a custom driver for the DVR and Enosofts DV Processor, which can be a bit buggy but it still works.

http://teqnoqolor.com/articles/playing-video-files-over-dv-firewire-to-a-panasonic-dvr/

[astronob]

nlec, pleeeze make your patch and device driver available. What you managed to do is what I wish to do, export from a timeline in a NLE to a dvd recorder. I hope you're still around and you read this. Thanks.

[astronob]

Still waiting for nlec's patch and info, sigh. Three months already and no replay back.

[vhelp]

http://vimeo.com/15512931

[vhelp]

also, there is an old software dv capture app, "RsDvCap.exe" that can send video out to a dv camcorder. google that for the app, and experiment.

[DVCAM]

Hello

I joined just to try to help shed some light on this damning subject!

I've been editing using premiere since 2001. I bought a Dell PC back then and my first DVD stand-alone recorder was a Philips. It accepted the DV output without any problems. Of course being Philips it didn't last long and it was then I found out how difficult it was to re-establish DV to DVD connection. In the end a local store took pity and allowed me to take home and try all their different DVD recorders! Fortunately one did work and I've been buying them up ever since: the Sony RDR-GXD360.

Now, the plot thins, as they say in theatreland: i decided to make an acronis backup of the system. No chance. Why? It's still running XP pro service pack 1. So I upgraded it to SP3. Did the backup. Fine. Then I tried recording from premiere to DVD: wouldn't have it.

The only way I got it to work again was to downgrade back to SP1 which is where the machine remains.

I am no PC boffin, and am still wondering why/how it works or doesn't as the case may be. I have another PC on SP3 which won;t work, also a laptop which won't either.

So is it merely the SP1? Or the Texas Instruments driver? That appears to be absent on the other machines. But if it'#s the driver how come it wouldn't work on SP3?

My issue now is this PC is 14 years old. I am nervous about what to do when it dies. I can't back it up cos of SP1.

Can I install XP pro sp1 (I still have the disc) on a new machine...would I be able to activate it? I did hear there's a file you can delete to avoin d this...???


...or have things now moved on and some device is now available?

Best wishes to all.