Convert Type 2 DV to Type 1 (DVdate?)

[nlec]

Can anyone suggest a tool that will convert a Type 2 DV file (.avi) to a Type 1 file without re-encoding? I tried DVdate (bonjour, Paul) which claims to convert to Type 1 using Ctrl+1, but it doesn't seem to work.

[thecoalman]

I can't believe I'm suggesting this but the default output from Movie Maker is type 1.

[guns1inger]

Scarily, it might be your best bet. All the other converters only do type 1 to type 2, not the other way around

[nlec]

LOL that's what I've been using, but for capturing composite input from my nVidia graphics card. I didn't know it could convert DV files. I'll check it out. Thanks!

[thecoalman]

I didn't know it could convert DV files. I'll check it out. Thanks!

One thing to note you have to select it in the options. I said default above but the default is WMV, I meant the default DV-AVI ouput.

[nlec]

I found the option and tested it. I dropped a Type 2 DV clip onto the timeline and rendered it out to another .avi DV file. I confirmed it is Type 1. Does it do that without re-encoding? Things I have read say Type 2 is just like Type 1 except there is an extra audio stream in the file. The audio is supposedly still present in the main DV stream. Sounds like it should be easier to go from Type 2 to Type 1 than the other way around.

[JohnnyMalaria]

You can use our Enosoft DV Processor.

It can do it without re-encoding. It will preserve all the timecode, recording date/time info etc.

Hint: turn off AVI Navigation to make the conversion run faster than real-time (details in the help file).

[Michael33]

Time for me to step in here as a frequent user of (the free) DVdate and state that it does a perfectly fine and fast job of losslessly converting Type 1 to Type 2 and vice versa. The first thing I would have asked is what do you mean by "doesn't seem to work"? If you have a valid DV file, DVdate is not corrupt, and your OS is fine, it will do the job first rate. Sorry JohnnyMalaria, but DVdate doesn't have any peers when it comes to this feature.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Sorry JohnnyMalaria, but DVdate doesn't have any peers when it comes to this feature.

Strange statement. Both DVdate and our program convert files at about the same speed. They are both free for personal use.

[nlec]

I have Enosoft DV Processor, but I am currently doing driver development and have Softice running. Enosoft doesn't play well with Softice on XP SP2. As a matter of fact, I am looking to use DV Processor as part of my driver functionality testing somewhere down the road. It is a nice program and the unregistered version is still quite useful for many tasks.

As for DVdate, I would be happy if it would do the conversion for me. I start it up and open a Type 2 DV file. According to the help file all I have to do is press Ctrl+1. When I do that, nothing happens. I don't know how much plainer I can describe the problem. I did notice that if I start it up from a command line, i.e. "C:\UTIL> DVdate_62En /?", it starts in "help mode", showing tabs for About, System, Command Line and Test. The program menu has options under "Convert" in this mode I do not see when I start the program normally (without the /? switch). One of those options is "Convert into DV Type 1". If I select that option it does nothing, naturally, since I haven't opened a file yet. If I click menu "Open" option and select a file to load, the menu bar completely disappears. When I close out of "help mode" the main program window is visible and I see the first frame of the clip displayed. The menu bar returns, but the only options under "Convert" are "Recompress into DV Type 2" and "Extract Audio". At this point as well, Ctrl+1 does absolutely nothing. It just sits there. No new output files are produced and the size and timestamp of the original file are not modified, which indicates to me that no in-place conversion is performed either.

Any hints? Either I'm doing something wrong or this version is fubar on XP SP2. FWIW I just confirmed the same behavior when softice is disabled, so that's not the cause of the problem.

At the end of the day I am just looking to generate some samples of Type 1 DV files for testing, so it is not a big hassle if I have to run without Softice for a while to generate them using DV Processor.

[JohnnyMalaria]

As for DVdate, I would be happy if it would do the conversion for me. I start it up and open a Type 2 DV file. According to the help file all I have to do is press Ctrl+1. When I do that, nothing happens. I don't know how much plainer I can describe the problem.

I get the same behavior with DVdate 6.2.1.

However, if I select the "Convert into DV type 1" from the menu with the mouse, it works. So, it seems that the Ctrl+1 hotkey isn't working. But it definitely converts via the mouse option!

[nlec]

I don't have that option in the menu. All I see is "Recompress to type 2" and "extract audio".

Hmmm. When I open the Type 2 file DVdate does not seem to recognize the codec. It shows "Type 1" for a different Type 1 file I have, but for the Type 2 file it doesn't show anything at all for the codec. The type 2 file is one I generated with Premiere Pro using the demo version of the MainConcept DV codec v2.4.14. Bad enough Premiere won't render Type 1 files, but apparently DVdate doesn't even recognize its Type 2 files. I think that is the problem. I don't have a Type 2 DV file from a source other than Premiere so I can't verify it to be the case.

DV Processor converts the same file to Type 1 without any trouble at all. Strange, since DVdate will play the Type 2 file without any trouble. GSpot shows the codec in the Type 2 file as "dvsd/" with a slash after it, while the Type 1 file is "dvsd" without a slash. Either PPro is outputting a bad codec indicator or DVdate isn't interpreting it correctly. One or the other.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I don't have that option in the menu. All I see is "Recompress to type 2" and "extract audio".

Are the menu options enabled in the Settings section (F10)?

[nlec]

Yep, that's the first thing I checked. I think it's not recognizing the codec 'dvsd/' (as shown by GSpot), despite the fact that it can play the file with no problem. Curioser and curioser... I looked at the clip with a hex editor and the characters "dvsd/" don't appear anywhere in the file. "dvsd" does, however. I'm not sure where GSpot is getting the extra slash from, but it looks like DVdate doesn't like it either.

[thecoalman]

Does it do that without re-encoding?.

It should, but who the hell knows what MS has decided is best for you... I know if something is being re-encoded by how long it takes, not very scientific but it works. It should take approximately the length of time it takes you to copy the file in My Computer from one folder to another.

Things I have read say Type 2 is just like Type 1 except there is an extra audio stream in the file. The audio is supposedly still present in the main DV stream.

Yes, you won't get any different results from type 1 or type 2, basically you need to select the type that is accepted by the software you are using. Most apps will accept either at this point so I always use type 1 because of the smaller file size.

Sounds like it should be easier to go from Type 2 to Type 1 than the other way around

Guess that's relative to the tools available, Virtualdub only accepted type 2 at one point, it will accept type 1 now and i think there were some others that would only take type 2 in the past so there are lot of tools for converting to type 2.

[nlec]

OK, I uninstalled the Mainconcept DV codec and reverted to the MS DV codec. I re-rendered the clip in PPro to a DV .avi file. DVdate behaves the same way: blank codec information.

Then I took the Type 1 file generated with DV Processor and converted it back to Type 2 and saved it under a different file name. With that file, DVdate correctly shows the codec as Type 2 and I have the "Convert to Type 1" option in the menu bar. I conclude the problem is with the header or format data PPro writes to its render output .avi file. Actually, it could be DVdate failing to recognize the information PPro puts in the file. It clearly can recognize Type 2 files written by DV Processor. I don't know enough about the internal structure of a DV .avi file to say with certainty which is at fault.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I don't know enough about the internal structure of a DV .avi file to say with certainty which is at fault.

I'd say a bit of both.

I've been running some tests and Premiere Pro (1.5 in my case) creates incomplete AVI headers.

What I did was take an existing Type 1 DV AVI file and convert it to Type 2 using Premiere and, separately, our Enosoft DV Processor. I opened each in DVdate (6.2.1) and looked at the RIFF header structure. Here's what I found (just the pertinent snippets):

For the Type 2 created with our software:

            ---------------(Video)---------------
            ------Start of AVI Stream Header------
            FourccType = vids
            FourccHandler = dvsd
            Flags = 00000000
            Priority = 0
            Language = 0000
            InitialFrames = 0
            Scale = 1001
            Rate = 30000
            Start = 0
            Length = 255
            SuggestedBufferSize = 120008
            Quality = 00000000
            SampleSize = 0
            rcFrame.Left = 0
            rcFrame.Top = 0
            rcFrame.Right = 720
            rcFrame.Bottom = 480
            -------End of AVI Stream Header-------

            strf  00000028

            ----Start of Stream Format Header----
            biSize = 40
            biWidth = 720
            biHeight = 480
            biPlanes = 1
            biBitCount = 24
            biCompression = dvsd
            biSizeImage = 120000
            biXPelsPerMeter = 0
            biYPelsPerMeter = 0
            biClrUsed = 0
            biClrImportant = 0
            -------End of AVI Stream Format-------

And for Premiere Pro:

            ---------------(Video)---------------
            ------Start of AVI Stream Header------
            FourccType = vids
            FourccHandler = 
            Flags = 00000000
            Priority = 0
            Language = 0000
            InitialFrames = 0
            Scale = 100
            Rate = 2997
            Start = 0
            Length = 255
            SuggestedBufferSize = 1036800
            Quality = 00000000
            SampleSize = 0
            rcFrame.Left = 0
            rcFrame.Top = 0
            rcFrame.Right = 0
            rcFrame.Bottom = 0
            -------End of AVI Stream Header-------

            strf  00000028

            ----Start of Stream Format Header----
            biSize = 40
            biWidth = 720
            biHeight = 480
            biPlanes = 1
            biBitCount = 24
            biCompression = dvsd
            biSizeImage = 120000
            biXPelsPerMeter = 0
            biYPelsPerMeter = 0
            biClrUsed = 0
            biClrImportant = 0
            -------End of AVI Stream Format-------

Note the missing FourCCHandler in the Premiere version stream header (dvsd). However, the dvsd is specified in the AVI stream format section (biCompression).

So, Premiere is not specifying the format in both locations and DVdate isn't looking in both locations....

FWIW, the Premiere-created Type 2 file opens just fine in GraphEdit and in our program.

Also, note that the Premiere version defines the video frame rate as 2997 / 100 per second (= 29.97 fps). This is WRONG!!!! It should be 30000 / 1001 (= 29.97002997.... fps). I'm amazed that Adobe still can't get this right - no wonder people still run into audio sync problems on large projects.

[nlec]

It does look like botn programs could do better. My first instinct is that one of them isn't following the spec, but when MS is involved it's always possible the spec itself is ambiguous. If Adobe screwed up here I would not be surprised.

The problem would have been obvious if DVdate simply left the "Convert to Type 1" option in the menu, but disabled it for files it doesn't recognize. I would have descirbed the problem as "the convert option is greyed out" instead of "it doesn't work". It never dawned on me that the program thought it had an invalid Type 2 file since it was able to display and play it without any trouble. The validity criteria it uses for playing are obviously different than the criteria it uses for deciding what conversions are possible.

I hope Paul will fix it up in a new version. Programs written with Delphi have always raised a red flag in my mind. I think Delphi encourages programmers to get too cute with their user interfaces.

[vidhelp]

I am trying to convert a Type 1 DV file captured by Movie Maker into a Type 2 file usable by Adobe Premiere.

When I use DVDate, the video is fine but it strips the audio. DVDate itself and every other program I try does not play the audio.

Is there a setting I am missing? Do I need to update something in XP?

The files are 10-12GB in size.

I also tried exporting just the audio so I could try putting into Premiere separately, but the file's length increased from 41 minutes to 1h02min. And when I played it, it was playing slow.

Any help would be appreciated.

I've spent enough time trying to get the existing files to work to make it more usefulto just recapture. What is a good Type 2 DV capture program you would recommend? I have a firewire connection on my DV camera.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I've spent enough time trying to get the existing files to work to make it more usefulto just recapture. What is a good Type 2 DV capture program you would recommend? I have a firewire connection on my DV camera.

Have you tried our Enosoft DV Processor? It can capture to Type 1 or Type 2 and it can convert from one to the other.

[vidhelp]

I have tried enosoft to convert and I get the same result.

Enosoft also stops working on my system. I get a "program not responding error".

Any ideas why the audio does not work upon conversion with both programs?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Do you get that error when capturing or when trying to convert?

Can you provide more info about your hardware - especially the DV equipment, your OS etc.

[vidhelp]

I haven't tried capturing yet. It happens when I try to convert a type 1 DV file created by Movie Maker into type 2 DV.

I have XP Home, 2 GB of memory and I converted a file on 1 drive and saved to another.

The problem did not occur the first time I used the PGM to convert the file.

It occurred after I tried to restart the PGM when I learned that the converted file didn't have any audio. I think I tried to play the file in Premiere, Media Player, and Movie Maker.

One thing I noticed is that on your site you mention SP2 for XP.

I haven't gone to SP2. I don't trust those updates after my system got screwed up the last time I did it. Would that be the issue?

[JohnnyMalaria]

I haven't tried capturing yet. It happens when I try to convert a type 1 DV file created by Movie Maker into type 2 DV.

Please try capturing with it directly to Type 2. We haven't received any reports of capturing problems.

I have XP Home...I haven't gone to SP2. I don't trust those updates after my system got screwed up the last time I did it. Would that be the issue?

Potentially. We haven't explicity tested with XP Home SP1. I'll make sure we do so. In the meantime, if you can verify that the capture function works for you properly.

Finally, does this happen with every DV file that you try to convert? Or just sometimes. If it is everytime and you can create a very short (1 second) sample that you can post somewhere, I can take a look at the file.

[vidhelp]

I will try to capture on Friday then get back to you.

[thecoalman]

Canopus Dv converter will go from type1 to type2 too.

[vidhelp]

Canopus converter seems to have a file size limit from the comments I read.

I will try it though. Thanks.

[Paul Glagla]

Very nice thread, indeed. Thank you for this interesting discussion about my freeware DVdate. Let me add two comments:

1) As far as CTRL+1 is concerned, it works great for me. Of course, if you select a file not recognized as DV, then it does not work. But I have never had the issue of CTRL+1 not working while the menu command worked with the mouse. Are you sure to type the "1" on the numeric keypad? It cannot work on the main keyboard part.

2) JohnnyMalaria is right: DVDate 6.2.1 did not really recognize as DV the files produced by Premiere Pro 2, with a blank codec. I have tried to fix this in a version 6.3.0 to be released soon, but not yet thoroughly tested. If some people here want to test it, it would be of great help. You may download it here:

http://paul.glagla.free.fr/fichiers/dvdate_63en.zip

Besides, in this version there is also a new feature: you may add a black border to the inlayed text in order to sharpen the contrast between the text and the video.

[thecoalman]

you may add a black border to the inlayed text in order to sharpen the contrast between the text and the video.

Can you clarify, Border or background? The reason I ask is because many applications that will "stamp" images or video with meta dat usually use a background. For me the ideal options would be being able to select the text color, border or background color, antialiasing, opacity, font size, font type and location of where it's being stamped.

[Paul Glagla]

Hi Coal Man,

it's definitely a border. In version 6.3.0 only the size of border is adjustable (in pixels), and the color is black. So it's specially useful if the background is light, and the text is white. The font and position of text can of course still be selected, as well as alignment.

See the picture:



or with a bigger fontsize: