How Microsoft's Big MP3 Patent Loss Could Screw Everyone Else

[SCDVD]

I suspect that Alcatel will have a more difficult time with the judges as this is appealed at various levels. Juries can sometimes be swayed by emotions and "feelings" and I suspect the jury's verdict was based on that and piled-on big-ole Microsoft. There are times that these emotionally based decisions by a jury have their place. For example, a jury might return a not guilty verdict in a criminal case even when the evidence is compelling that the accused is guilty when other elements of the case are considered (felt) such as inappropriate police action at the time of the arrest. Judges are more likely to parse the law and rule accordingly.

[oldandinthe way]

Would that your opinion of judges were so.

Judges are human and they can be known to reinterpret the law when it conflicts with their belief system.

The appeals circuit in which these cases is located is noted for the highest reversal rate by the Supreme Court.

[SCDVD]

Would that your opinion of judges were so.

Judges are human and they can be known to reinterpret the law when it conflicts with their belief system.

The appeals circuit in which these cases is located is noted for the highest reversal rate by the Supreme Court.

I agree with your point. I unfortunately live in the district that you are referring to so I know what you mean. I am more specifically referring to the lower courts and of course ultimately the Supreme Court.

[InXess]

Jurors have a special duty to exercise caution and restraint. It is true that they may be swayed one way or the other but not to the degree that is plain ridiculous. They have all the time they need, judge's guidance as well as access to evidence yet in many cases they act like a bunch of kids. I do believe that the punitive aspect may sometimes overshadow the rest of the matters but not to the degree of full disconnection with reality. Out of all the parties involved I see MS least guilty (based on the evidence presented in the press) yet punished beyond any reasonable measure. This undermines the whole sense of jury system which has proven time and again to be more of an easy to manipulate marionette in sleazy lawyer's hands rather then an instrument of justice. The number of lame jury verdicts in US is staggering. Jurors should be, at least, somewhat qualified by education and experience in any given field (related to the matter at hand) to eliminate emotional morons from ever sitting on the bench. Instead in weak cases trial lawyers want to have just that particular type of individuals so they can manipulate their feelings rather then speak to their minds.

[thecoalman]

This is a discussion thread on Microsoft's MP3 patent loss, not a jury critique. Please feel free to open a jury critique thread and flail away but don't hijack this thread.

[edDV]

What if Microsoft, Apple and others went to the public saying they were abandoning licensed support of MP3 (unless as an extra charge $$ option). Then jointly promoting an alternative that will be included free.

That leaves corporate users free to pay for the option and consumers free to roam the net for alternatives. Alcatel-Lucent get nada from now on except the ability to sue consumers.

I'd bet these negotiations are getting hardball behind the scenes.

[SCDVD]

This is a discussion thread on Microsoft's MP3 patent loss, not a jury critique. Please feel free to open a jury critique thread and flail away but don't hijack this thread.

Let me explain this slowly and carefully so you can understand it - maybe. The discussion about juries and judges in the Microsoft MP3 lawsuit is directly related to the subject and possible outcome of the case. Spouting off about Flash has nothing to do with it. That's why I asked that the thread not be hijacked. I have seen too often before a thread get derailed in this way and I didn't want this one to get off track by a "Flash is Bad" - "No it's Not" argument - and that's exactly where it was heading. I find this thread interesting and informative. If you don't, just back-click you browser button and pick something that does interest you. Go be a wise ass somewhere else!

[SCDVD]

What if Microsoft, Apple and others went to the public saying they were abandoning licensed support of MP3 (unless as an extra charge $$ option). Then jointly promoting an alternative that will be included free.

That leaves corporate users free to pay for the option and consumers free to roam the net for alternatives. Alcatel-Lucent get nada from now on except the ability to sue consumers.

I'd bet these negotiations are getting hardball behind the scenes.

I would love to see that happen.

[thecoalman]

Let me explain this slowly and carefully so you can understand it - maybe.

Understood, you want a cookie?

Go be a wise ass somewhere else!

Excuse me but I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. The GIF format mentioned earlier probably has more to do with this thread than anything else if you know anything about it's history. There are many parallels. As far a Flash goes it too is proprietary format and Tekkieman so nicely put it:

The topic begs discussion on software patents and use of "standards" in general.

Sorry if you can't see the big picture.

Lastly threads tend to wander in just about every forum I've ever been a member of and that is just a fact. This one may have gone slightly off track but as mentioned earlier hardly hijacked. You don't like it.. well too bad.

[InXess]

Thecoalman, have you noticed that out of several posts of yours there isn't a single one about the thread subject so far...?
Looks like "Gif" is a very personal and sensitive issue to you but so is the subject matter to some of the other members of this forum, obviously not to the same degree I suppose, so be so kind and let others continue... Threads do wander off topic sometimes but it's the high time for this one to get back on rails. Gif has as much to do with this thread as flying pigs with lunar missions, no need to be obnoxious.

[DereX888]

Well, since I dont give a flying F about GIF, PNG, JPEG etc - let me get this thread back on track



The wise choice would be to "kill" the format.
But Microsoft, Apple and few other key players (Sony group etc) they all would have to agree to abandon MP3 and establish some new standard.
That ain't gonna happen, since all of them have their own proprietary formats, and MP3 is the only common format accepted by all of them, right?


The whole "problem" here is the lifespan of patents, copy rights, etc etc. Every new legislation they are increased and increased.
Nowadays people want to feed few generations of grandchildren on a copyrights to a song, book or code. I bet Lucas would make his movies shift to public domain some time in a year 3500 if he can.
Thats where the root of the problem lies.
Greed.

Patents cost money. Of course the reseachers should be given fair amount of time to recouperate their costs and make profits. But there have to be limits to it because its just an absurd when a company couldn't make money on their patent for 20 years - or even didn't knew they held such patents as I suspect in this case - and after decades, when someone else figure out how to put their patent to use they now want money? Well, f*ck them, shareholders should change that bad management immediately and swallow the loss (which isn't any loss at all since they didn't even knew they had rights to any licencing fees before), thats all.
The court ruling is wrong, not the first time and certainly not for the last time


Having said that - I would buy Alcatel shares if I could now

[InXess]

Personally I don't fault patent laws and inventor rights for a poopoo like this case. It's the lawyers/dumb-jurors combo that makes things hard to swallow. Where was the judge, on a coffee break or busy fu...g his law clerk?
If original license was valued at 16 mil then damages arising from royalties stream misdirection cannot be reasonably valuated at 1.5 billion and aimed at a legitimate licensee acting obviously bona fide. Was MS obliged to exercise extra diligence and refuse Fraunhofer any payments until they unequivocally prove their right to the patents licensed?
Fraunhofer should be found negligent or acting in bad faith for claiming ownership to Bell Labs patents. This issue is strictly between Alcatel and Fraunhofer while MS should get immunity.

Btw. isn't a standard part of license agreement a clause in which licensor swears to be the rightful owner of patent rights being licensed in the agreement?

[DereX888]

Fraunhofer should be found negligent or acting in bad faith for claiming ownership to Bell Labs patents. This issue is strictly between Alcatel and Fraunhofer while MS should get immunity.

Btw. isn't a standard part of license agreement a clause in which licensor swears to be the rightful owner of patent rights being licensed in the agreement?

Exactly.
Judge was (is?) an idiot.


But... there is this old jewish saying: if no one knows for sure what is about, it is about money for sure
(or something like that)
Microsoft=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
while (by comparison)
Fraunhofer=$
Lawyers know that, and lawyers are *always* after the money
If Microsoft would have been bancrupt, no lawyer would even took this case to any court obviously.

[thecoalman]

Thecoalman, have you noticed that out of several posts of yours there isn't a single one about the thread subject so far...?

I completely disagree, Tekkieman brought up the GIF format in the context as to how it applies to the MP3 case at hand and he had a very good point but I disagree with it. When i see something I disagree with I respond such as I'm doing now, it's that simple.

but it's the high time for this one to get back on rails.

Which would be the reason you're posting such drivel as:

Gif has as much to do with this thread as flying pigs with lunar missions,

You obviously have no clue of the history of GIF, perhaps you should consider knowing your subject before commenting on it. If you did you would be aware that what happened with GIF is practically indentical to what is happening here.

The popularity of LZW led CompuServe to choose it as the compression technique for their GIF format, developed in 1987. At the time, CompuServe were not aware of the patent.[5] Unisys became aware that the GIF format used the LZW compression technique and entered into licensing negotiations with CompuServe in January 1993. The subsequent agreement was announced on December 24, 1994.[6] Unisys stated that they expected all major commercial on-line information services companies employing the LZW patent to license the technology from Unisys at a reasonable rate, but that they would not require licensing, or fees to be paid, for non-commercial, non-profit GIF-based applications, including those for use on the on-line services

Sound familiar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF

[DereX888]

The popularity of LZW led CompuServe to choose it as the compression technique for their GIF format, developed in 1987. At the time, CompuServe were not aware of the patent.[5] Unisys became aware that the GIF format used the LZW compression technique and entered into licensing negotiations with CompuServe in January 1993. The subsequent agreement was announced on December 24, 1994.[6] Unisys stated that they expected all major commercial on-line information services companies employing the LZW patent to license the technology from Unisys at a reasonable rate, but that they would not require licensing, or fees to be paid, for non-commercial, non-profit GIF-based applications, including those for use on the on-line services

Sound familiar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF

That was a fair ruling IMHO.
While what we have here is as far from any fairness as the nazi "laws" putting Jews in german concentration camps during WWII.
Fraunhofer screwed up and claimed to be the sole licensor of the patent, Alcatel bought Lucent and screwed up too for not even checking what do they own, and 20 years later Microsoft is ruled to pay for Fraunhofer's and Alcatel/Lucent's screw ups

[InXess]

Exactly.
Judge was (is?) an idiot.


But... there is this old jewish saying: if no one knows for sure what is about, it is about money for sure
(or something like that)
Microsoft=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
while (by comparison)
Fraunhofer=$
Lawyers know that, and lawyers are *always* after the money
If Microsoft would have been bancrupt, no lawyer would even took this case to any court obviously.

Ha, ha.
This reminds me of Anna-Nicole Smith's daughter having 6 !!! fathers and all of them constantly running from talk show to talk show crying foul. No one has mentioned money so far and everyone is ONLY !!! concerned with child's well-being. I'd say this child would be better off fatherless...! as she doesn't even fathom yet what's cooking.

Sniffing dogs from Alcatel knew exactly who to target and they surely smell blood now... Gates should announce a moratorium on Windows, close the shop for a year recalling all Windows copies and redelivering it without MP3 support.

[DereX888]

Ha, ha.
This remind me of Anna-Nicole Smith's daughter having 6 !!! fathers and all of them constantly running from talk show to talk show crying foul. No one has mentioned money so far and everyone is ONLY !!! concerned with child's well-being. I'd say this child would be better off fatherless...! as she doesn't even fathom yet what's cooking.

Sniffing dogs from Alcatel knew exactly who to target and they surely smell blood now... Gates should announce a moratorium on Windows, close the shop for a year recalling all Windows copies and redelivering it without MP3 support.

LOL, did they collectively donated sperm to same tube or something?


Yes.
And Apple should recall all ipods etc or post firmware updates with MP3 support removed, same as Sony etc etc
"Killing" the format would be the best solution.

Then Microsoft, Apple, Sony and others should sue back Fraunhofer for "refunds"

[InXess]

thecoalman, had you put it in a proper context from the get-go no one would object.

[InXess]

quote="InXess"]Ha, ha.
This remind me of Anna-Nicole Smith's daughter having 6 !!! fathers and all of them constantly running from talk show to talk show crying foul. No one has mentioned money so far and everyone is ONLY !!! concerned with child's well-being. I'd say this child would be better off fatherless...! as she doesn't even fathom yet what's cooking.

Sniffing dogs from Alcatel knew exactly who to target and they surely smell blood now... Gates should announce a moratorium on Windows, close the shop for a year recalling all Windows copies and redelivering it without MP3 support.

LOL, did they collectively donated sperm to same tube or something?

[/quote]

Soon the tub wouldn't be enough to accommodate all the donors let alone a tube.
One hasn't seen a daylight for six or so years (in a slammer) but surely he's a father too.
You can't see anyone but an army of lawyers all damned concerned while homeless kids roam around Miami's landfill and no one cares. This is a very caring profession.
Btw. what's their cut in Alcatel's case? or they did that in public interest protecting all of us from MS headlock and "Jew's claws" (copyright: Borat)

[DereX888]

Ha, ha.
This remind me of Anna-Nicole Smith's daughter having 6 !!! fathers and all of them constantly running from talk show to talk show crying foul. No one has mentioned money so far and everyone is ONLY !!! concerned with child's well-being. I'd say this child would be better off fatherless...! as she doesn't even fathom yet what's cooking.

Sniffing dogs from Alcatel knew exactly who to target and they surely smell blood now... Gates should announce a moratorium on Windows, close the shop for a year recalling all Windows copies and redelivering it without MP3 support.

LOL, did they collectively donated sperm to same tube or something?

Soon the tub wouldn't be enough to accommodate all the donors let alone a tube.
One hasn't seen a daylight for six or so years (in a slammer) but surely he's a father too.
You can't see anyone but an army of lawyers all damned concerned while homeless kids roam around Miami's landfill and no one cares. This is a very caring profession.
Btw. what's their cut in Alcatel's case? or they did that in public interest protecting all of us from MS headlock and "Jew's claws" (copyright: Borat)

ROTFL "the tub"


Sure they did it in public's best interest and for free*







* - free in lawyers lingo means just for the costs reimbursement, which (among other) include presidential suites in a hotels and purchase of private jets and such professional tools (you wouldn't want your lawyers to be late for hearings, would you?

[SCDVD]

Another thing that I wonder about is; licensing contracts usually have a patent indemnity clause, the purpose of which is to protect the licensee from future claims/litigation having to do with patents pertaining to the licensed product/technology. I can't imagine that Microsoft didn't have a patent indemnity clause in their license contract. I suspect there are several more shoes to fall in Microsoft's strategy for dealing with this.

[InXess]

This law firm (name not disclosed) has greatly enhanced their resume by the biggest fu...g loss they could imagine and more likely then not yesterday have had their last supper (literally) together with Microsoft.

[thecoalman]

thecoalman, had you put it in a proper context from the get-go no one would object.

It wasn't me that originally mentioned it but Tekkieman and he did mention it in the context of the MP3 case, his point being that GIF died off as result (which I disagree with) and maybe this would be good thing as far as MP3 is concerned because it would simply kill it off (which I can agree with). GIF used to dominate for web graphics until JPEG came on the scene and still dominates for some types of images but its in it's twilight years, coincidentally the gif patent just ran out a year or two ago.

Anyhow in regards to how this relates to MP3 I'd have to agree with Tekkieman, it's a good thing. The format will die off and we'll get more support for better alternatives, hopefully open source alternatives. If the GIF patent had been fully enforced I think it's safe to say it would be long dead, which would be a good thing as browser support would have been much better early on it's adoption.

I've always been pro business until a point but proprietary formats are becoming quite an issue. Waiting until a format becomes popular then suing or holding a gun to the heads of whoever needs it isn't exactly legitimate IMO. Another prime example is the Indeo Codec which was shipped with every windows system right up until about SP1 or SP2. MS dropped it because apparently Indeo started twisting there arm for more cash. Many games and other applications depended on that codec being there for the splash screen and in some cases rendering the application useless unless you ponied up the $20-30 Indeo wanted for it...

[Cornucopia]

This reminds me of Anna-Nicole Smith's daughter having 6 !!! fathers and all of them constantly running from talk show to talk show crying foul. No one has mentioned money so far and everyone is ONLY !!! concerned with child's well-being. I'd say this child would be better off fatherless...! as she doesn't even fathom yet what's cooking.

But wait, I'M really Anna-Nicole's daughter's father! So those checks should rightfully go to me!....

You'll back me up guys, right? (nudge, nudge) $$$$

Scott

[InXess]

Put your sperm in the pool first, you're wasting valuable time.
You're no. ...........................7!
First, a fundamental issue. Why are you claiming paternity? And don't say it's about the money, no one will believe.
Lastly, you're probably gonna need a lawyer I'm afraid, still not sure though... and if you do you may really have a hard time trying to find one. Public defender? Someona who has nothing to do as truly busy lawyer may not want to take this case.

[Cornucopia]

is joke, no?

[InXess]

No, serious.

[mats.hogberg]

This is a discussion thread on Microsoft's MP3 patent loss, not a flash critique. Please feel free to open a flash critique thread and flail away but don't hijack this thread.

I agree. Or this thread will soon discuss how annoying TV commercials are.

/Mats

[InXess]

Microsoft wins in second Alcatel-Lucent patent suit

update A week after Microsoft was ordered to hand over $1.5 billion in an Alcatel-Lucent MP3 patent dispute, a federal judge has ruled that the Windows maker did not violate a patent at the heart of a second trial that was set to begin soon.

http://news.com.com/Microsoft+wins+in+second+Alcatel-Lucent+patent+suit/2100-1014_3-61...l?tag=nefd.top

as well as this (for a better picture) even though it's old news:

Lucent sues Microsoft over Xbox technology
http://news.com.com/Lucent+sues+Microsoft+over+Xbox+technology/2100-1047_3-6058090.html

I never expected to be rooting for Microsoft but Alcatel's sudden interest in old stuff makes me feel angry. Microsoft stepped in to protect business partners and got into something they never saw coming. I think MS certainly could afford a better law firm. In all fairness we don't know how much they have won for MS vs. what they lost but they seemed to be caught off-guard in Alacatel's case.

[adam]

I just wanted to point out that the judge in this suit is one of the most respected and least overturned "patent" judges in the nation. Patent suits are also extremely difficult for jurors because they are very technical both in regards to the technology as well as the language of patents. Patents literally are another language. You can be pretty much guaranteed that your entire jury panel will have no knowledge whatsoever of the technology and legal priciples that are necessary to reach their verdict. They have to be taught everything at trial in a crash course.