Microsoft to Mac - Its our Vista and You'll Pay If You Want It

[SCDVD]

For all of you "Macs don't get viruses" jokers out there, I have a couple of links for your reading pleasure. One is from His Worship Steve's company itself.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=112&tag=nl.e539

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=305149

If Apple was big enough to matter, a lot more of the virus writing sickos out there would be targeting Macs. Who knows, maybe Apple's obnoxious TV commercial is heightening awareness of the "opportunity" to the virus creators. It's a bit like walking though a bad part of town giving the finger to the muggers while thinking you are impervious to being mugged. That lying commercial is enough to piss anyone off including the bad guys.

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[RLT69]

If Apple was big enough to matter, a lot more of the virus writing sickos out there would be targeting Macs. Who knows, maybe Apple's obnoxious TV commercial is heightening awareness of the "opportunity" to the virus creators. It's a bit like walking though a bad part of town giving the finger to the muggers while thinking you are impervious to being mugged. That lying commercial is enough to piss anyone off including the bad guys.

I nominate you for the Darwin awards [ http://www.darwinawards.com/ ] because that has to be one of the dumbest explanations for why Windows has more viruses than the Mac.

Any security expert will tell you that market share does not create security holes. Security holes do not magically appear because, e.g., the majority of people starting using one particular operating system. The holes already exist; read the documentation for the security updates Microsoft releases.

The problem lies with the operating system. Windows was never designed with security in mind. Many of the security fixes for Windows are band aid approaches. Vista was Microsoft's first real attempt at security, time will tell if it was successful.

[JohnnyMalaria]

But to perpetuate the myth that somehow only Microsoft let insecure code out to the masses is also worthy of a Darwin award.

Recent examples:

Firefox - a patch that actually created new risks:

http://news.com.com/Security+flaws+found+in+fix+for+Firefox%2C+SeaMonkey/2100-1002_3-6...l?tag=nefd.top

Apple - Risk-ridden Quicktime (on Windows and Mac platforms):

http://news.com.com/Apple+plugs+eight+QuickTime+holes/2100-1002_3-6164496.html?tag=cd.top


Yet, it's always Windows that gets slammed. Why? Because it is the dominant OS.

[oldandinthe way]

Last month a couple of hackers decided that it was time for some truth about MAC and viruses.

They had posted on the web a mac hack a day for the entire month.

Some were serious, some were not. Press coverage was limited.

Software has flaws, many of which can be exploited to meet bad goals. OS/X is fundamentally no more secure in its architecture than any other O/S. The lack of interest in the Mac does contribute to its security. Hell, "needle in a haystack" security is often the most effective.

[TwistedLincoln]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered that perhaps the reason Microsoft doesn't want people using virtualization is because it effectively bypasses Product Activation?

When you activate Windows inside of a virtual machine, it uses the bogus hardware info generated by the program to base it's activation hash on. So you could essentially install Windows into a virtual machine container, and then run it on multiple machines by simply making copies of the virtual machine container...

[SCDVD]

RLT69, I wanted to share with everyone a picture I took of you last week on the way to the KoolAid stand with the cart before the horse as usual waving your Apple banner. If you are getting any comfort from "any security expert", you're a fool. If any competent attacker goes looking for vulnerabilities in Mac OS, they will find plenty to exploit. You're the kind of guy that Jim Jones would have really liked - Blindly loyal.

[RLT69]

If you are getting any comfort from "any security expert", you're a fool. If any competent attacker goes looking for vulnerabilities in Mac OS, they will find plenty to exploit.

Still have my nomination for the Darwin award and I think the horse aptly describes you.

If you want to twist the meaning of my post go right ahead. But it does not change the fact that the market share argument is a red herring. The holes previously existed in Windows. People did not put them there by simply using Windows.

I never said the OS X had no exploits. There are security risks with any operating system. But to say it's simply do to the market share is wrong.

If you want to be fanatic about it fine...How many known viruses are there for Windows? Now how many are there for OS X? Do the math. How many exploits exists for Windows? Now how many for OS X? Do the math.

If you want to compare numbers you will not win the argument because Windows has more viruses and more exploits than OS X. That's a fact.

That also does not mean OS X users are 100% secure and should not worry about security. The user needs to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their operating system.

But hey if you want to blame Window's security problems on market share, you go right ahead.

[DereX888]

If Apple was big enough to matter, a lot more of the virus writing sickos out there would be targeting Macs. Who knows, maybe Apple's obnoxious TV commercial is heightening awareness of the "opportunity" to the virus creators. It's a bit like walking though a bad part of town giving the finger to the muggers while thinking you are impervious to being mugged. That lying commercial is enough to piss anyone off including the bad guys.

I nominate you for the Darwin awards [ http://www.darwinawards.com/ ] because that has to be one of the dumbest explanations for why Windows has more viruses than the Mac.

Any security expert will tell you that market share does not create security holes. Security holes do not magically appear because, e.g., the majority of people starting using one particular operating system. The holes already exist; read the documentation for the security updates Microsoft releases.

The problem lies with the operating system. Windows was never designed with security in mind. Many of the security fixes for Windows are band aid approaches. Vista was Microsoft's first real attempt at security, time will tell if it was successful.

When thousands of hackers search for a holes in Windows, while maybe few do same on Macs, you are surprised we know more 'Windows holes' than 'Mac holes"?
Yes, the problem lies with OS's security, but even if Mac would be completely wide-open and unsecured, how many hackers and sickos-virus-writers would in your opinion be interested in it at all, given its 3-4% marketshare?
If Im a virus coder, I'll write 1 virus attacking "Windows hole" and *bam* my virus is spread on millions machines by next morning;
while if I write the same for Mac how many machines would I infect in a week time? or month? Probably due to Macs non-existence on the market I wouldn't be even able to spread it at all. Most likely even if I wrote 100 viruses I would never reach same "outbreak" level as with just 1 Windows virus.
Think: even if someone would be able to infect ALL MACs IN THE WORLD with viruses, he would reach maybe a quarter of what one "Melissa" virus outbreak achieved few years ago on PCs with Windows So why even bother?
These are logical facts and main 'secret' of MACs security.


Yes, there are thousands of exploits for Windows, but your argument makes no sense: you are counting ALL the exploits since DOS!
Do you know that only handful of them, the latest ones, can actively work on latest Windows OS?
And almost no Windows user runs his OS without an antivirus - which reduces the amount of 'active' exploits to same handful amount as Macs have.


I think you are pretty good material for Darwin Awards yourself...

But hey if you want to blame Window's security problems on market share, you go right ahead.

No one says that Windows problems come from its popularity
Its the crappy coding, the 'spaghetti code' that dates back to IBM's 1986 OS/2...

But don't you Mac-fanbois understand that it is exactly Windows' popularity what attracts hackers to digging for holes there?
How hard it is to grasp it?!

[SCDVD]

RLT69, For your reading pleasure. Don't worry, Steve won't get mad; it's not a "sin" to read this but the bright light of day in your closed eyes may hurt a little bit.

http://downloads.securityfocus.com/downloads/MacOSX_DeepSight_Report.pdf

[stretchweider]

up till 6 yrs ago,i'd never touched a computer,
so i tried a pc & a mac,i found the mac to be a lot more user friendly and intuitive,everythings unified and looks nice too,
but i aint got no problems with pc's,
didnt realize how strong feelings are against macs,
why is that?

[RLT69]

didnt realize how strong feelings are against macs,
why is that?

Because Windows users hate being called Weenies. Look at the Mac ad. The guy playing the PC looks like a weenie and the guy playing the Mac is suppose to be cool.

Apple made computers fashionable, hip, cool. People had to have a Mac because it's "cool," regardless of whether they needed a computer or if it did what they wanted. That's great marketing.

PCs are not cool. You want to be cool you buy a Mac. You want to be a weenie, you buy a PC. The marketing message is clear. But for some reason, some PC users don't see the marketing message and take it personally. Don't know why, it's just a commercial. But I suppose people don't like being told that the computer they bought is a piece of crap and that they should have spend $2 grand on something stylish that would match their sofa.



@SCDVD that's just some bang up research you did on Mac security. You should start your own consulting company. It would have been nice if the author actually did any research, as opposed to using Apple security disclosures. But I'd bet you didn't even read the article yourself.

Here's a interesting opinion piece about the report:

The Mac Landscape: Full of Empty Threats?
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2059980,00.asp

"And yet Macs are not widely attacked, as are Windows systems. In fact, from what I can tell from the monitoring I do of discussions on the matter, Linux boxes are more likely to be attacked, successfully or otherwise, than the average Mac, and there are a lot more Macs out there than Linux boxes."

So much for the vulnerability through popularity argument. Weenie.

[gll99]

I wouldn't know a Mac from a Mack truck but I love those commercials. Like the camera being duct taped to the pc's head as he brags about the new peripherals, the major upgrade with PC in the hospital gown not sure if he will survive and now the irritating constant interruptions from the Vista security "allow or disallow" feature You have to admit that's funny.

They won't get me to buy a Mac but I can't wait to see what other exaggerated truism they'll focus on next. Give them credit for short fun commercials worth watching and each one of those actors is good in those roles.

Like the actor who plays the Mac role said on one talk show some pc people yell stuff at him and take this too seriously. It's just a good paying gig to him and he doesn't even own a computer.

[oldandinthe way]

Its the attitude and the half-truths in the Apple commercials which generate the hostility among PC users.

Its really easy to run these commercials now that the PC is a commodity and the Mac is an irrelevancy. There is no one who needs to fight their ads.

Yes Mac users didn;t have to undergo surgery to run OS/X - most of their old systems couldn't run it.

Adding a crappy webcam to a PC required plugging it into a USB port, not tape and an IT specialist. .Yes, Mac may come with a crappy webcam. About 1% of users have one.

Macs are artistic, with the tools for video and multimedia. But there are more video tools and choices for the PC as witnessed on this site.

And newer better and cheaper tools are developed for the PC on a regular basis. Leaving the "feature-rich" mac tools (and their PC translations) like Photoshop in the dust.

[tekkieman]

Here's a interesting opinion piece about the report:

The Mac Landscape: Full of Empty Threats?
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2059980,00.asp

"And yet Macs are not widely attacked, as are Windows systems. In fact, from what I can tell from the monitoring I do of discussions on the matter, Linux boxes are more likely to be attacked, successfully or otherwise, than the average Mac, and there are a lot more Macs out there than Linux boxes."

So much for the vulnerability through popularity argument. Weenie.

I won't bother to read the piece with such blatant BS as that. Unless of course, they decided not to count all the *nix boxes effectively running the internet....

[SCDVD]

Here's a interesting opinion piece about the report:

The Mac Landscape: Full of Empty Threats?
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2059980,00.asp

"And yet Macs are not widely attacked, as are Windows systems. In fact, from what I can tell from the monitoring I do of discussions on the matter, Linux boxes are more likely to be attacked, successfully or otherwise, than the average Mac, and there are a lot more Macs out there than Linux boxes."

So much for the vulnerability through popularity argument. Weenie.

I won't bother to read the piece with such blatant BS as that. Unless of course, they decided not to count all the *nix boxes effectively running the internet....

Tekkieman, you were the central poster in a very interesting recent thread about Linux. You provided a lot of useful information about Linux that I found informative and interesting. There is a big difference between that and the Mac fanboys. When you read their whine, you get the creepy feeling that you get when you read about crazed cult followers.

[lordsmurf]

Apple fanboys remind me of Scientologists. Most Mac owners tend to be Mac fanboys. They spend tons of money on their cult.

Linux folks usually have no such egos, they simply want to replace the majority OS with something else. However, their choice of OS is not as appealing and lacks many things the majority wants. Some Linux fanboys exist, but they remind me of independent voters, they hate both Mac and Windows and simply wanted another option. Sometimes out of cheapness, sometimes out of real special needs, sometimes out of hobby.

[ArtemisG3]

I would have to say that most of the people in this thread that are bashing Macs and propping up Windows are just as "fanboyish" as those whom they are slinging the mud at.

As for myself, I am a heterosexual Mac user (yes, DereX888, there is such a thing) who uses Macs because that is what I am comfortable and proficient with. I happen to also be a graphic designer, but my profession is not directly tied to my machine. I am also the network administrator for my company. This includes managing and maintaining Windows computers as well. When an exploit is found that affects Macs, I don't try to make excuses for it. I simply take the necessary measures needed to close the hole until it is patched. Every OS has holes. Some users make excuses for them, some try to shift the attention to another OS, and then others just exploit the holes while the majority is bickering about who is the most insecure.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to using a Mac. If someone expresses an interest in my machine, I will gladly answer any questions they have.

In a lot of ways it's just like the Ford vs. Chevy arguments. One is not going to convince the other that they are absolutely right. One group will always claim that the other group is a cult, or must have drank the "kool-aid" (that line is so worn out).

Everyone should occasionally back up from the keyboard, step out into the sunlight (you're looking kinda pale), and get some fresh air. It puts things in perspective.

[rumplestiltskin]

I'd have to go one further, in fact.... I honestly believe most "Mac is best" folks are teenagers, college aged at most (and owning a severe case of arrested development, socially). In a few cases, it's these esoteric people (usually soccer-mom-aged women) that are so overly artsy-fartsy you want to run away from them screaming, in the hopes your sanity did not fade merely from being in their presence. Aside from those two groups, I have NEVER met a sane adult (and not some unknown online that claims they are an adult, as those are usually kids too) tell me, without laughing, that a Mac was in any way superior or preferable to a Windows or even a Linux system. The few folks I know, who are Mac-owning sane adults, are low-end computer users that simply liked them for a few features and do nothing else (photo editing, easy simplistic videos, e-mail).

I must add 2 more categories:

Interior designers
Almost every catalog, book and show I read or attended (due to my studies) always have MACs on display.
Yes, they are more "presentable" than the plain old beige PC boxes, but when few times I noted that there are plenty of beautiful PC cases and monitors that could be used on display instead, you know what answer I got? Its impossible to find the mock-up models of those nice ones. PC display mockups come only in black or beige ugly models! Only Apple supplies plenty of their mockups and real models at very low costs (great marketing move, isn't it? )
For the same reasons we always see MACs on tv shows and in the movies.
If the character uses a laptop, you can bet its some iDiot MAC model...

Gays
From all MAC users I know of (among real people) who chose and use MACs at home - 3 men and 1 woman - all 3 men are gay.
(The woman actually fits lordsmurf's profile haha).
Not that I'm saying all MAC users are gay, no, but knowing "homo community" well (I work in showbusiness related government office... I meet them on daily basis) it is very natural for them to value "esthetics" of say iBook over the Acer Ferrari's top-notch hardware.
The operating system or laptop's functionality has nothing to do with their choices...

Better to be mute and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[thecoalman]

Any security expert will tell you that market share does not create security holes. Security holes do not magically appear because, e.g., the majority of people starting using one particular operating system. The holes already exist; read the documentation for the security updates Microsoft releases.

True, however the market share has an impact on the amount of malicious code written. If you have a 20:1 ratio of people writing viruses it stands to reason that the 20 are going to produce much more than 1.

[ssj2_goha]

wow a mac Vs. Pc thread I haven't been involved in yet....... thats amazing......

But can I ask one thing...... what does this have to do with the ORIGINAL topic?

The original Topic was that vista home can't be installed on a Virtual machine, right?
Bootcamp is A: not a virtual machine, it just allows you to dual boot on a mac. B: only compatible with XP SP2.

Bootcamp works just fine by the way. i use it on my IBM machine installed OSX86 on. (this machine actually)

[stretchweider]

"Apple fanboys remind me of Scientologists. Most Mac owners tend to be Mac fanboys. They spend tons of money on their cult. "

this is a f****ing ridiculous statement

perhaps some people are geeky about macs but im sure same is true of pc's,i got a few mates with macs and few with pc's,end of day they a means to an end-getting a job done,
its a real dumb presumption that most people using macs sit at their mac altar bowing to an apple logo or whatever it is you mean by cult!

[SCDVD]

It's true. Here is a picture of Steve with some of his followers that was taken just last week.

[thecoalman]

It's true. Here is a picture of him with some of his followers that was taken just last week.

I usually refrain from giving the lol reply but...




EDIT: Upon further review I think I'll suggest to the mods that all references to the MAC be considered a religious post and the poster be immediately banned. :P

[DereX888]

As for myself, I am a heterosexual Mac user (yes, DereX888, there is such a thing)

Good.
It would be really sad if only minority (gays) of a minority would use them... it'd mean end of Macs, and believe it or not - I wouldn't want Apple to quit making their overpriced PCs and make only gaypods (oops, I meant iPods ).

I'd have to go one further, in fact.... I honestly believe most "Mac is best" folks are teenagers, college aged at most (and owning a severe case of arrested development, socially). In a few cases, it's these esoteric people (usually soccer-mom-aged women) that are so overly artsy-fartsy you want to run away from them screaming, in the hopes your sanity did not fade merely from being in their presence. Aside from those two groups, I have NEVER met a sane adult (and not some unknown online that claims they are an adult, as those are usually kids too) tell me, without laughing, that a Mac was in any way superior or preferable to a Windows or even a Linux system. The few folks I know, who are Mac-owning sane adults, are low-end computer users that simply liked them for a few features and do nothing else (photo editing, easy simplistic videos, e-mail).

I must add 2 more categories:

Interior designers
Almost every catalog, book and show I read or attended (due to my studies) always have MACs on display.
Yes, they are more "presentable" than the plain old beige PC boxes, but when few times I noted that there are plenty of beautiful PC cases and monitors that could be used on display instead, you know what answer I got? Its impossible to find the mock-up models of those nice ones. PC display mockups come only in black or beige ugly models! Only Apple supplies plenty of their mockups and real models at very low costs (great marketing move, isn't it? )
For the same reasons we always see MACs on tv shows and in the movies.
If the character uses a laptop, you can bet its some iDiot MAC model...

Gays
From all MAC users I know of (among real people) who chose and use MACs at home - 3 men and 1 woman - all 3 men are gay.
(The woman actually fits lordsmurf's profile haha).
Not that I'm saying all MAC users are gay, no, but knowing "homo community" well (I work in showbusiness related government office... I meet them on daily basis) it is very natural for them to value "esthetics" of say iBook over the Acer Ferrari's top-notch hardware.
The operating system or laptop's functionality has nothing to do with their choices...

Better to be mute and be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I know... I hate to quote myself, but I said that already that I know "for you MAC-fanbois we (the PC/Windows users) are dumb". Or maybe it was another mac-fanbois thread, it doesn't matter.
Anyways I am proud to be that dumb without any shadow of doubt, so thanks for the props here

[ssj2_goha]

I know... I hate to quote myself, but I said that already that I know "for you MAC-fanbois we (the PC/Windows users) are dumb". Or maybe it was another mac-fanbois thread, it doesn't matter.
Anyways I am proud to be that dumb without any shadow of doubt, so thanks for the props here

Actually you said that to me once b4. And i say again to you, I don't think window users are stupid, i use windows and OSX, I think oSX is better but i do use both.

[DereX888]

I know... I hate to quote myself, but I said that already that I know "for you MAC-fanbois we (the PC/Windows users) are dumb". Or maybe it was another mac-fanbois thread, it doesn't matter.
Anyways I am proud to be that dumb without any shadow of doubt, so thanks for the props here

Actually you said that to me once b4. And i say again to you, I don't think window users are stupid, i use windows and OSX, I think oSX is better but i do use both.

Now this I can agree upon
Definitly OSX - as a PC Operating System - is better than Windows, any windows.
But MACs, as a proprietary PC machines simply suck (since they run x86 intel CPUs theyre not "MACs" anymore, right? ).
Linux is the best OS, albeit not as easy to use for 'average user', and unfortunately it suffers from similar lack of hardware support as OS X (but waaay not as bad as OSX though ).

Apparently not all MAC-users "feel oh-so-enlightened". Its just unfortunate for "Mac world" that its usually the fanbois who always preach about Macs on forums etc... IMHO they really do the worst imaginable PR job for Apple...
Since you use both, Im sure you know Windows (2000+) is not that much worse than OSX (you dont use Windows ME or older, right?), and all those PC vs MAC commercials are crappy lies


PS
Dont get me wrong - I like OSX as operating system, but I loathe the whole "iLife" crap from Apple thats bundled with Macs. Its no different than the Microsoft's crap (Windows Movie Makers etc shite thats bundled with every WinPC). Where is DOJ?

[JohnnyMalaria]

i use it on my IBM machine installed OSX86 on. (this machine actually)

You should clarify this.

It sounds like you have installed OS X on non-Apple hardware. That is strictly verboten and you will have to drink more of Steve's magic elixir to ensure you do not trangress in the future....

[ssj2_goha]

Yes I installed OSX (10.4.8) on my IBM Thinkcenter computer. I thought i was clear the first time i said it.......

http://www.osx86project.org for more info.......

[JohnnyMalaria]

This nicely demonstrates a key point about the original subject:

You can install Vista Home as a virtual OS on the Mac.

It just isn't legal.

Just as it is illegal to install OS X on an IBM Thinkcenter (or any other non-Apple hardware).

[rotten apple]

I know... I hate to quote myself, but I said that already that I know "for you MAC-fanbois we (the PC/Windows users) are dumb". Or maybe it was another mac-fanbois thread, it doesn't matter.
Anyways I am proud to be that dumb without any shadow of doubt, so thanks for the props here

Actually you said that to me once b4. And i say again to you, I don't think window users are stupid, i use windows and OSX, I think oSX is better but i do use both.

Now this I can agree upon
Definitly OSX - as a PC Operating System - is better than Windows, any windows.
But MACs, as a proprietary PC machines simply suck (since they run x86 intel CPUs theyre not "MACs" anymore, right? ).
Linux is the best OS, albeit not as easy to use for 'average user', and unfortunately it suffers from similar lack of hardware support as OS X (but waaay not as bad as OSX though ).

Apparently not all MAC-users "feel oh-so-enlightened". Its just unfortunate for "Mac world" that its usually the fanbois who always preach about Macs on forums etc... IMHO they really do the worst imaginable PR job for Apple...
Since you use both, Im sure you know Windows (2000+) is not that much worse than OSX (you dont use Windows ME or older, right?), and all those PC vs MAC commercials are crappy lies


PS
Dont get me wrong - I like OSX as operating system, but I loathe the whole "iLife" crap from Apple thats bundled with Macs. Its no different than the Microsoft's crap (Windows Movie Makers etc shite thats bundled with every WinPC). Where is DOJ?

A 'bit' too perceptive for someone who claimed to be so dumb,surely?
Also you're supposed to be an irrational fanatic yet here you are having a balanced opinion on the subject by lauding the Mac OSX , + this will never do for the claims made about you from the poor brainwashed victims of insidious Apple propaganda. Suffering such targeted emotional abuse, especially if it started when they were kids, susceptible from the sly selfish greed of Apple's shallow spin, its no wonder they ended up as such blinded DELUSIONAL souls who desperatley cling to blatant misinformation, twisted truths and ignore objectivity + facts, in order to prevent reality from collapsing their near extinct( even Apple only makes PCs now LOL, as has been said "PCmacs" are built with exactly the same components from exactly the same production lines as originalPCs) "Mac world", itself instigated by the psychological manipulation of artful Modern day propaganda.
I mean only someone so highly delusional could believe such misinformation ;

" and there are a lot more Macs out there than Linux boxes."

But it does not change the fact that the market share argument is a red herring.

and then desperately deny the obvious facts of security and the MAC platform's negligable capatilistic appeal/incentive for attack.In contrast to Mac, a minority that has made continued positive growth against MS domination, the Firefox browser, also lauded to be virus, hacker resistant, has ironically experienced increased security breaches with increased popularity,more evidence, if needed,to show how far these Mac fanbois can be from reality to continue to deny the objective facts behind their platforms lack of security threat - dust devils are the worst they can expect.


In objective terms, now Macs are for the most part just overpriced low spec entry level PCs ( clearly the new ones with Intels REVOLUTIONARY NEW desktop CPUs, the core2duo range (additionally causing a healthy proccesor price slash war with AMD), are an exception)with poor outdated software support.... BUT how many times do you her the gormless mac fanbois STILL Parrot out the mouldy urban myth that Macs are 'built' to withstand crashing!!,viruses etc as if the software has nothing to do with it! The only thing that Apple still make for their comps is....THE CASE!!! Indeed though it is illegal to load the MAC OSX onto a PC it is no longer a practical imposibility...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000KCIA00/ref=cm_rev_next/202-702...views.start=21

From above link;

Innotive? haha dont make me laugh, this is just a blatent imatation of apples OSX. The 3d windows - copy of OSX's 'expose. Gadgets - Copy of OSX 'Widgets, Being able to search from any my computer box- Copy of OSX's 'spotlight' facility, blatnent overall look of vista is a copy of osx, of course this is still on a pc so you have the endless dialouge boxes telling you that everything is ok, relax, or that everything is not ok and i have a terrible virus.

I switched to mac from being a 10 year old pc user last year and i would never ever switch back. One of the great things about mac is its simplisity, a seven year old mac can run the current OSX operating system. a seven year old pc could not run Vista. Mac OSX was built with security and viruses in mind, Windows wasnt. Macs dont get viruses, endless safety messages popping up, they do crash, RARELY! and everytime mine has froze (about half a dozen times in 15months) the simply solution of turning off and on again fixes it and its back to normal. Also, intel macs can run windows xp, so you can run pc only software on a mac!!

vista = hassle
osx= simple

Seems to confuse PC and the WIN software itself afterall linux can run on a PC and 'it' 'can't get viruses' just like the Mac..,AND of course '10 years as a PC user' hasn't just been made up for the 'review/diatribe' as an atempt at objective credibility to push the object at the centre of the reviewer's skewed world. And in classic psychology just as they were brainwashed by Apple they attempt the action on others.

Everyone knows what a typical bunch of money grabbing captalists MS are, both their successes and the royal fcuk ups are endlessly reported + discussed..but Apple seems more spotless, shiny + competant.However just like Apple OS is restricted to (legal) use on Macs, forcing a complete Hardware change at a faster rate with shorter Comp lives because the hardware is purposefully designed to be imposible to upgrade....they have many more sly greedy tactics.
The more recent ipod nanos have had the most atrocious fragile design (possibly intential to decrease product life + so increase the rate of the more fanatical replacement buying) many do not last longer than a year ( a quick google will show you all the evidence you need but tucked out of media glare in forums).A new model has just been relauched to solve the design faults of the previous gen, as you can see from the following reviews, Apple's compassion + integrity shine through to their valued target audience (ie the solution was a different more trendy colour, WOOOOH!!!! ) ;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Apple-iPod-nano-Silver/dp/B000HZDDXE/ref=sr_1_3/202-702444...4265407&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000HZFBXE/sr=1-4/qid=1174265407/r...4265407&sr=1-4

The postive reviews are just as telling as the negative. There's little middle ground. The endless fawning reviews have little logic and views are based on misinformation/hype. Full marks are still awarded despite the fact their original lasted less than a year,they still bought it again at an even more inflated price AND they only just bought the thing (no trial/precautionary period so they could warn/reassure others of the manufacturers new claims). Apple certainly knows their target audience well , those suceptible to the fear of being left out of something shallow, percieved cool which often they may have no personal interest in - the emporer's new clothes fable says it all - gormless kids, the gullabile,the shallow + 1 dimensional thinkers, the insane etc etc
As you can see noted in the reviews which applies to all(?) ipods, peculiarly, they don't have removable batteries + without eosteric knowledge the only way to get it replaced is for Apple to charge you $$$ for the pleasure of their exclusive batt. ( short life in practice, of course contrary to what is officially claimed) replacement service - Do you Know any other battery operated product where the manufacturer gets a way with such atrocious behaviour?
Then there's i-tunes and naturally its riddled with propaganda and misinformation - given there target audience, the likelyhood of detailed PC user knowledge will be limmited, making them easy victims for Apple to decree like in all their official info you can only use i-tunes software to load an ipod, which is their typical hyperbole to mislead and stop the customer spending money elsewhere.Similarly the DRM licensing + peculiar media formats can trap + tie in the clueless + gullable who have been trained/tricked into believing the companies integrity.
Finally not forgetting the lauded 'fully' functional ipods at the cutting edge of technology - LAST DECADES tech that is! Still using conventional bulky hhds in mobile devices gives no end of problems. Though our hdds are relatively efficient for PCs such highspeed ,mechanical, magnetic resonance based equipment was never designed for mobility + robustness to relentless physical shock - thus reports of poor battery life,copious crashing and dead drives are commonly reported with full size Ipod experiences that dedicated followers excuse and rebuy. For those that presently want an entire giant music library(>>20gb) with them at all times must suffer such drawbacks but for everyone else the answer lies with the future tech of digital data storage the flash drive whose capacity continues to rapidly advance, its now at the point for a superior efficient drive for a small storage Lap top(20gb). Flash cards are ideal for mobility having no moving mechanical parts(so more energy efficient),are compact/light/miniscule, and are far more resilient to shock and still have all the advantages of convential hdds except for (cheap) gigantic storage capacity.Apple do use this tech in the Nano (robustlesness,no vids w/o hacking) + Shuffle ipods(no screen, no choice of function!) but look at what they offer for their price considering their functionality + renown design flaws. You only need to look at the typical functions of modern mobile phones to see how they outclass the ipods at almost every level + feature (even music quality) at a comparitive price or lower. Without phone capability WAP, 3.5G,email etc is also absent clearly Apple wouldn't allow smthg like blue tooth as by allowing customers to share material would mean reduction of their all important chance of profit It will be interesting to see what Apple come up with the i-Phone though the phrase 'closing the stable gates after the horses have bolted' springs to mind - their greed may be blinding them to the limitation of how many projects they can keep in the air at the same time but as like most everything they make is all hype,hyperbole + propaganda with little substance - almost a parody of modern day comercialism - their termination will be as significant as their products comparative practical worth.

I would have to say that most of the people in this thread that are bashing Macs and propping up Windows are just as "fanboyish" as those whom they are slinging the mud at.

Something which is based on /defended by blatant objective misinformation and propaganda deserves ALL the bashing it can get It is unfair and for those consious of the lies, IMMORAL.Prefering the use one set up over another is ultimately subjective HOWEVER victims of Apple propaganda would be unconcious of the knowledge by the amount of capital that could be saved by buying a slow (tiny proccesor etc), handicaped, low end PC which could possibly create a similar subjective feeling as working on a Mac if the right outdated and functionally backward (by todays standards) software was used.

As for myself, I am a heterosexual Mac user (yes, DereX888, there is such a thing) who uses Macs because that is what I am comfortable and proficient with.

WHY ON EARTH do you feel the need to make a statement about your sexuality ??? In the first place no-one can really know the entire sexuality of another sometimes even the individual themselves don't even know (acutely closeted etc) Then to make such a pronoucement on the internet(the ideal setting for fakes) of all places is even more DAFT. In first place no-one said or even infered that ALL male Mac users are gay, just that its apparent a significantly bigger proportion of Mac buyers (than cf. PC buyers)there are that value style over substance AKA shallow in this respect,It wouldn't cross their mind how a fraction of a Ghz processor would prevent significant multitasking - i mean they've probably never heard of multitasking( given their lifestyle),aren't serious about computing in general and its advantages + have no 'value for money 'interest or concerns. RLT69 displays this mindset splendidly;

Apple made computers fashionable, hip, cool. People had to have a Mac because it's "cool," regardless of whether they needed a computer or if it did what they wanted.
(about PCs) But I suppose people don't like being told that the computer they bought is a piece of crap and that they should have spend $2 grand on something stylish that would match their sofa.

The comercial Gay scene is also notoriously shallow in nature and thus some of the men that live a lot of their lives in it and absorb it influence.

I happen to also be a graphic designer, but my profession is not directly tied to my machine. I am also the network administrator for my company. This includes managing and maintaining Windows computers as well.

But this doesn't indicate about your knowledge of (todays comparitive available) technology (hard/soft), that todays Mac are in the main little more than a low end poor spec over priced PC that is legally bound/trapped to Apples OS with a choice of software that PC users from 10 years ago would find lacking,restrictive and depressing.Without correct up to date, wide ranging tech. knowledge, your deccision making process for the most personally suitable set up is going to be severley inefficient + hampered.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to using a Mac. If someone expresses an interest in my machine, I will gladly answer any questions they have.

Well thats integrity - AT LAST , if only the most fanatical of Mac users were more like you - but then Apple would have no-one to spread + propagate their lies + propaganda and the Mac biz would collapse when everyone finally saw the Emporer was actually not stunningly dressed but NAKED without his clothes!!!!

In a lot of ways it's just like the Ford vs. Chevy arguments. One is not going to convince the other that they are absolutely right. One group will always claim that the other group is a cult, or must have drank the "kool-aid" (that line is so worn out).

Hopefully by now you will realize that one group MORE than another is plagued by lies + propaganda - its about something objective, not a criminally/deliberately misguided + misinformed subjective choice.Yes a Mac is like a FORD, the Ford that was one of the very first off a production line all those decades ago while a PC in cf. is more like a Modern day car. Which car a person would prefer to use regularly for transport is WHOLLY subjective, but in reality knowing the facts from the misinformation and a knowledge of the comparitive tech of each how many would choose the Ford (especially if vastly overpriced like the Mac for what it does in practice) ?????

up till 6 yrs ago,i'd never touched a computer,
so i tried a pc & a mac,i found the mac to be a lot more user friendly and intuitive,everythings unified and looks nice too,

Sure you could say the same about doing a cave painting with Ox blood and a rabbits tail for a brush it might take less effort than having to learn the new skill/knowledge for a PC prog/utility, a cave painting might look more 'natural' + dramatic BUT talk about limmiting your horizons. The benefits + unique potential of PC tecnological advancements are clearly lost on you(as you state about your up till recent lack of computer use) Without the effort of learning/aquiring new knowledge PROGRESS could not exist...