Better DVD Recorder at 2hr (+?) from VHS ??

[StuR]

Holy Cow, I need to check for replies more often!
I'll post properly after I've read through all the above.
phew

[Bix]

I still say that Pioneer is the best !!! :P

I like my DVR-220, but at times it's over-sensitive in how it handles VHS & Betamax tapes.

[FulciLives]

I still say that Pioneer is the best !!! :P

I like my DVR-220, but at times it's over-sensitive in how it handles VHS & Betamax tapes.

That was a problem that was fixed with later models. My Pioneer is the DVR-531H-s and models from that production year do not have the "over-sensitive" issue with poor video sources (such as videotape sources). The DVR-640H-s also does not have this problem.

However I read in another thread that the Pioneer DVR-640H-s is now gone (just about) so either find one now or buy a Toshiba RD-XS35.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[davideck]

A nice feature in the Toshiba XS34/XS35 units is an input black level adjustment to compensate for the IRE error that the Sony, JVC, and other machines suffer from.

I like to use 2hr but after using 1hr mode it really is sharper, not really better than the video but at least the same.

This implies to me that the ability to turn off DNR might be important to you, particularly since you already have it in your VCR.

I would also encourage you to consider a unit with a hard drive. They provide many more capturing, editing, and authoring capabilities and also function as PVR devices for everyday viewing. Timeslip is very convenient, too.

[FulciLives]

A nice feature in the Toshiba XS34/XS35 units is an input black level adjustment to compensate for the IRE error that the Sony, JVC, and other machines suffer from.

Pioneer has this as well.

In fact you can control a lot of "picture elements" like saturation and tint and level of noise reduction etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[NiteLite]

Welcome to my World of the Bombs...

Breifly here are some of the advantages of C-band..


3) C-band is, or at least last I looked anyway, was cheaper, but you get
fewer channels

Really? 4DTV gets like 20 HBO's, Shotimes, Starz etc. and even more counting west feeds.
Dish Net and Directv cant even come close to 4dtv - Cband with the number of channels available.
I'm trying to find a dealer now to switch out to 4DTV system.
I dont care about the sports on the small sat so not a problem.
Granted 4DTV has lost some music channels and a few but overall it's tops. Especially when it's about half the price of the small Sats on the programming. Start-up is costly but can be made up in a few yrs. Very few if a large subscriber.

Back to a better DVD-R, I really like the quality of the Pioneer 640-hs. From VCR to HD or disc is really a good pic.
Source always the main factor.

[samijubal]

4DTV picture quality is far better than Dish Network, I haven't seen Direct TV, but would guess it's about the same. The 4DTV picture if a lot sharper without the high compression look of a mini dish. You'll love it. There are about 75 premium channlels between HBO/Starz/Showtime. HBO and Showtime give you the 4DTV feeds free with a c-band subscription.

[samijubal]

Welcome to my World of the Bombs...

Breifly here are some of the advantages of C-band..

1) C-band has somewhat better picture, at least on some channels.

If you're only seeing a slightly better picture, it wasn't a very good receiver. C-band is only as good as the receiver. With a good GI receiver, the picture difference is night and day.

[davideck]

Broadcast quality resolution (300 lines) is all that is necessary to notice the softening effects of DNR and 352 sampling. Everyone should do A/B Comparisons on their setup with their sources to test whether they see a difference on their display devices.

[StuR]

Even more post! sorry for not answering quicker no time.
Please drop the C-Band stuff no idea what your talking about or why.

Keep in mind this list is nothing more than LS's opinions. He tends to be brand blind and brand bias. JVC is hard to find, and have had some problems.....

pinetop,
Cheers, in the UK JVC is not really available on the high street, Currys, Comet, and Argos (UK's big 3) don't stock. Argos once stocked MV10 vhs/hd/dvd but I noticed a load of this model for sale as 'repaired' in an electrical store. They said that Philips was their biggest DVDR repair problem but UK's 'Which?' Magazine showed JVC as the biggest failure rate in a recent big survey.
That's the background to my fear of JVC dvdr. Pioneer are available but only as a one off with LiteON actually very available. LiteOn do worry me with the relability issue, which would leave Pioneer but alas prices need to drop abit. Philips, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Samsung seem to be the most available (sort of in that order)

Your Sony GX7 is probably pretty much the same as my GX300 in terms of processors. I find the 2hr vhs-dvd really good generally. When you return to them after copying them they do look as you'd expect for a good vhs, but if you use 1hr and really compare with the origonal after recording more detail is retained. Best done by playing dvd and vhs at the same time and flicking the av/tv button on a long close up of a face (our brains are trained to be most decerning about detail in faces). The biggest problem occurs on vhs recorded with picture inteferance caused by a bad arial. This means that a lot of the moving picture info is actually rubbish so the A/D conversion is compromised.

Everything else tends to have several major flaws that render them worthless and useless for most folks in most situations.

Cheers Lordsmurf for your input, 'take no prisoners!'. That would include my GX300?, honestly its not worthless I respect your perfectionism but sometimes you do go a bit too far.

And lastly regards to Pioneer and those suggesting it - I have read the manuals and they do have Black level adj as well as some other's not sure the terms they use satuation/colur/hue? This was something I liked the look of my Sony has colour/contrast/brightness rec. adj but in the end I don't use it now(doesn't work on RGB source either). I want the ability to have no NR as from what I've seen it's best to make your own dicision, we're all adults give us the chose I say.
I understand Panasonic LP is 500 lines right up to 4hr, this I think is the same for LG. I've read that LSI are working with LG, would any one know if their LP is any good. Obviously everyone hates Panasonic so their out of the running.

[lordsmurf]

Sony has noisy encodes that do nothing to filter signals, and it's easy to trip the unit up and encode Lego-quality video. There are issues with mosquito noise. Aside from that (and some people really will not mind, or will only record DV/satellite), it's overly expensive.

It's not a bad purchase. Just go in knowing what the flaws are. If you can live with them, this is what I'd call a mid-grade machine. Higher-end mid-grade, to be honest, as the tuner works well.

LG/LSI depends on the machine. I recently tried the Microsoft-married unit, and it was 720x480 at 4 hours. It was awful. I mean TONS AND TONS of noise, worse than a Panasonic. It also had some weird errors from over-sharpening, which caused more blocks and aliased the image. I think I kept a disc from that experience, as a sample to be uploaded in the future.

[Seeker47]

However I read in another thread that the Pioneer DVR-640H-s is now gone (just about) so either find one now or buy a Toshiba RD-XS35.

Over on AVS in the 640 threads, they've been quoting some Canadian Pioneer techs who believe that there will be a 2007 model . . . but I'm very skeptical that such people would be in a position to know this. It flies in the face of the sales figures for previous models, which have been published.

[StuR]

There are issues with mosquito noise. Aside from that (and some people really will not mind, or will only record DV/satellite), it's overly expensive.

lordsmurf Yes mosquito noise is there at 2hr (VHS-DVD not digital sources) and I noticed that for the GX's after mine have 'mosquito noise' MNR reduction on playback as well as the 'block noise' BNR option the GX300 has. I sort of thought that maybe such processing could help when on future playback, but it's not the ideal way to do things.
Sony are pricey I've seen the GX315 currently in Sainsbury's (3rd biggest UK Supermarket) for about £250!! Rip off I payed £60 odd from Comet for GX300 ex-display, missing remote. I'd advise anyone in the UK to keep an eye on your local Comet as the models are changed, they always lose remotes. I got a brand new remote on ebay for £10 so worth thinking about as you get the usually 12mth warranty. Instructions are easy to get from the websites of course.
Ignore LG then.

Davideck I would prefer to include HD and Digital tuner in the next model. This is to help current/future recordings easier. I can clean up starts/ends/ads before dvd backup.
Pioneer DVR-440HX-S is the one I've been watching but this may not have a US equivalent, I don't know if this LSI inside or if the 500lines go over the 2hr mark. JVC DRMH300 would be the other model which I believe has 2.5hs at 500lines then drops to 400 and 250. It has the HD and Digital.

[StuR]

Fulcilives
Only just downloaded that video to look at .
Looks really good. I can't see any blocking, I slowed it right down to check the high speed graphic flash, very smooth. Handles the steam well too. No mosquito noise around people. One thing I did think is that it looked a bit soft, was there any NR along the way, I think Toshiba VHS do have NR. I take that Pioneer do allow control of the NR.
I'd be really interested to hear other peoples opinion like lordsmurfs of the clip and how it compares to JVC and Toshiba.

Looking at Toshiba DVDR's I noticed that they have a '3D Y/C Comb Filter' which they describe as

This advanced filter analyzes sequential fields of information to eliminate dot crawl and color bleed. Additionally, the 3D Y/C (4MB, 10-bit) Comb Filter significantly reduces detail noise, seen as shimmering or flicker, in complex or intricately detailed scenes.

This is the little shimmering I've noticed (GX300) and don't like, it's not evident in the Pioneer clip, do they have a comb filter?

[FulciLives]

Fulcilives
Only just downloaded that video to look at .
Looks really good. I can't see any blocking, I slowed it right down to check the high speed graphic flash, very smooth. Handles the steam well too. No mosquito noise around people. One thing I did think is that it looked a bit soft, was there any NR along the way, I think Toshiba VHS do have NR. I take that Pioneer do allow control of the NR.
I'd be really interested to hear other peoples opinion like lordsmurfs of the clip and how it compares to JVC and Toshiba.

Looking at Toshiba DVDR's I noticed that they have a '3D Y/C Comb Filter' which they describe as

This advanced filter analyzes sequential fields of information to eliminate dot crawl and color bleed. Additionally, the 3D Y/C (4MB, 10-bit) Comb Filter significantly reduces detail noise, seen as shimmering or flicker, in complex or intricately detailed scenes.

This is the little shimmering I've noticed (GX300) and don't like, it's not evident in the Pioneer clip, do they have a comb filter?

When I recorded that BLADE II clip (from an original studio made VHS video) I had the two Video Noise Reduction settings set to "off". I am talking about the settings on the Pioneer DVR-531H-s as my Toshiba VHS VCR does not have DNR (some models do). My model Toshiba only has composite video output so that is what I used (along with RCA Stereo audio jacks).

Please note that the BLADE II clip was, as I recall, recorded at either the 90 or 95 minute mode. This should have used an average video bitrate of approximately 6000kbps to 6500kbps (give or take).

I posted that same BLADE II clip once before in another thread and someone thought I should have picked a clip that wasn't so "dark" but in my opinion dark video is harder to encode than "bright" video making "dark" video a better test of a MPEG encoder/recorder.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[StuR]

Cheers for the reply. Dark areas do cause blocking I've found but I think the smoke and high speed graphics are a real tests, even at 1.5hr setting my Sony gx300 would start to crumble I know now.
I think it may look soft because my mind is in sort of DVD mode due to the quality of the image, but once again I'm really interested in other peoples opinon - especially those with Toshiba and JVC recorders that they can compare the clip too.
It's going to be one of these 3 and I'm sick of wasting time with the Sony, I've given it a good try but hopefully there is a significant improvement to be made.

I'm viewing the mpg on my laptop (17''wide) which is a good screen but I'd vike to view on TV but can't seem to copy it to DVD. I've got nero 6 and pinnicle 8 but there no good, can anyone point me in the right direction. I think TV will give a fair view of the clip as thats what I'm used to.

[StuR]

FulciLives
I had another look at your clip last evening, in a darker room, which helped as its on a laptop LCD so not very bright. I've noticed the black level looks to light and at 40sec and just before the end theres heavy blocking from movement. I'd like to view on TV with a DVD player as that will give it a far run but its .mpg not .vob ??
I'm a bit worried to see blocking like that at 90mins quality. Is it just me can anyone else see it and does it go when not viewed via PC?

[Seeker47]

4DTV picture quality is far better than Dish Network, I haven't seen Direct TV, but would guess it's about the same. The 4DTV picture if a lot sharper without the high compression look of a mini dish. You'll love it. There are about 75 premium channlels between HBO/Starz/Showtime. HBO and Showtime give you the 4DTV feeds free with a c-band subscription.

This became a secondary topic within this thread, but it is in this thread, so I'll ask here. samijubal, your post made me very curious. Who are the providers of this C-Band service (in the U.S.), where do you get it, and what gear are you referring to, in order to receive it ? What is the pricing like ? Are you talking about those big "earth station" type dishes that one rarely sees anymore, except maybe in rural areas or places where they were installed quite a few years back ? I think I may have seen one or two signs for shops that did those somewhere, but did not know if they were old signs for defunct businesses. I've also heard some reference to "legacy" satellite service -- specific tuning things you cannot get from DISH or DIRECTV today, such as being able to pull in, say, the Chicago ABC affiliate whenever you wish, even though you live on the Right or Left Coast -- that some of these legacy sat customers still have.

[FulciLives]

FulciLives
I had another look at your clip last evening, in a darker room, which helped as its on a laptop LCD so not very bright. I've noticed the black level looks to light and at 40sec and just before the end theres heavy blocking from movement. I'd like to view on TV with a DVD player as that will give it a far run but its .mpg not .vob ??
I'm a bit worried to see blocking like that at 90mins quality. Is it just me can anyone else see it and does it go when not viewed via PC?

Sorry I missed this post when you made it.

You can use a program such as TMPGEnc DVD Author to import the MPEG file and author it to a DVD-R and then play it back on a regular DVD player connected to a regular TV.

The video quality ... at least in terms of black level ... matches the source exactly. You want a DVD player that can play back at 7.5 IRE BLACK whereas some models only play back at 0.0 IRE BLACK and yet some give you an option to set playback at either 7.5 IRE or 0.0 IRE.

As for any macroblocking ... I would expect to see some near the first few frames and last few frames ... possibly due to editing ... otherwise any macroblocking seen elsewhere must be blamed on the recording device (or the source itself for being "hard to encode").

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[samijubal]

4DTV picture quality is far better than Dish Network, I haven't seen Direct TV, but would guess it's about the same. The 4DTV picture if a lot sharper without the high compression look of a mini dish. You'll love it. There are about 75 premium channlels between HBO/Starz/Showtime. HBO and Showtime give you the 4DTV feeds free with a c-band subscription.

This became a secondary topic within this thread, but it is in this thread, so I'll ask here. samijubal, your post made me very curious. Who are the providers of this C-Band service (in the U.S.), where do you get it, and what gear are you referring to, in order to receive it ? What is the pricing like ? Are you talking about those big "earth station" type dishes that one rarely sees anymore, except maybe in rural areas or places where they were installed quite a few years back ? I think I may have seen one or two signs for shops that did those somewhere, but did not know if they were old signs for defunct businesses. I've also heard some reference to "legacy" satellite service -- specific tuning things you cannot get from DISH or DIRECTV today, such as being able to pull in, say, the Chicago ABC affiliate whenever you wish, even though you live on the Right or Left Coast -- that some of these legacy sat customers still have.

Yes, they are the big 6'-14' dishes. You could probably pick up a used dish for next to nothing these days, you might even find someone who would give it to you if you haul it away. I've seen them on ebay for $50 or so. I had someone wanting to give me one a few years back, but I already had one. You'd probably have to have it professionally installed. There isn't much left on c-band, what channels there are you can buy al-a-carte pretty cheap. If you are interested in c-band, you've got to go 4DTV, c-band's digital receiver. You have to buy the receiver, but programming is a lot cheaper than mini-dishes with far better audio and video quality. There's around 75 premium movie feeds between HBO, Showtime, and Starz. Some of them are east/west feeds, the same thing 3 hours apart. They also have a hi-def receiver for 4DTV.

Here's the 4DTV channels:
http://skyvision.com/pages/information_center/4dtvguide.html


You can probably find better prices on the services, Skyvision isn't usually the cheapest. Unlike DN and DirectTV, there's more than one service provider, competition helps keep prices lower.

[StuR]

Seeker47

This became a secondary topic within this thread, but it is in this thread, so I'll ask here.

I suppose any post is better than no posts! 8) I of course never go off topic

Fulcilives I've download the trial Ver so I'll give it a go, I think if I had nero 7 -not 6- I could burn using an .mpg.
The black level dosen't really bother me but just mentioned it, I'll check on TV though.

I'm looking more closely into the JVC DR-MX10SEK vhs/hd/dvdr. It's like the DR-DX5SE dv/hd/dvdr model I think your aware of, but plays +rw and burns 16x so has latest drive, which knowing JVC's problems is all the better, !loading!
I'm just thinking the 2.5hr 1/2D and 'Bitrate Optimiser' for hd>dvd (dual pass system) will give a better bitrate level.
I've read that your happy with your 1/2D VHS dubs (PC) compared to full frame DVD so I'm prosuming I would be.
I don't think the JVC 'light picture' will effect my recordings as I'm all PAL and not NTSC.
Cheers

[FulciLives]

Seeker47

This became a secondary topic within this thread, but it is in this thread, so I'll ask here.

I suppose any post is better than no posts! 8) I of course never go off topic

Fulcilives I've download the trial Ver so I'll give it a go, I think if I had nero 7 -not 6- I could burn using an .mpg.
The black level dosen't really bother me but just mentioned it, I'll check on TV though.

I'm looking more closely into the JVC DR-MX10SEK vhs/hd/dvdr. It's like the DR-DX5SE dv/hd/dvdr model I think your aware of, but plays +rw and burns 16x so has latest drive, which knowing JVC's problems is all the better, !loading!
I'm just thinking the 2.5hr 1/2D and 'Bitrate Optimiser' for hd>dvd (dual pass system) will give a better bitrate level.
I've read that your happy with your 1/2D VHS dubs (PC) compared to full frame DVD so I'm prosuming I would be.
I don't think the JVC 'light picture' will effect my recordings as I'm all PAL and not NTSC.
Cheers

I do try to keep things Full D1 when I can but for VHS I am more than happy with Half D1 if the source calls for it (i.e., if the quality to begin with is not that great or if the running time is very long etc.)

Didn't realize that you were in PAL land so the JVC should be OK since I think it is hard wired for 0.0 IRE which is perfect for a PAL video source.

I must admit I don't know much about the JVC DR-MX10SEK ... I imagine it is NOT a USA model?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[StuR]

DR-MX10SEK UKspec. vhs/hd/dvdr
http://www.jvc.co.uk/product.php?id=DR-MX10SEK&catid=100086

Handy that Japan is PAL too, apparenty it was a far superior system but the US chose a different one. The above is euro as it PAL,SECAM I don't think the VHS even plays NTSC.

The one thing the JVC misses is a DVB digital tuner which in the UK is a pain in the arse as were switching off analogue next year (in stages) an overnight recording of multiple chanels requires the ext. digibox to change channel - ie too much hassle. Also as I'm art/design recorder they all seam to be on digital channels.
Hence the Pioneer 440 and Toshiba 85DT both DVB two birds, one stone, no bloody cable hanging from the digibox.

[Bix]

Japan is NTSC-J, not PAL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC-J

[FulciLives]

Japan uses NTSC but went with a black level of 0.0 IRE whereas just about all other forms of NTSC (including the USA and Canada) use NTSC with a black level of 7.5 IRE

In comparison the PAL format always uses a black level of 0.0 IRE

As for choosing systems ... NTSC was around first and the USA was a pioneer in that field. After we picked NTSC it was then that other countries decided to pick PAL and I suspect that was more a political thing than anything else.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[StuR]

Japan is NTSC-J, not PAL.

Oh that's cleared that up then