Time Warner Cable & HBO No longer as of this Week allow you to Record

[pinetop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CGMS/A copy protection System Signals would have no effect on a capture card.
Anyone know if this is true?
If so hello Hauppauge.

That would be device dependant, as far as a MV goes the Hauppage doesn't "look" for the MV flag, other devices like a Canopus ADVC, ATI AIW... look for the MV siganal. The same would be true of CGMS/A.

So a capture device like the WinTV PVR USB2 would not detect CGMS/A?

[dogtales]

Thanks for all the New Posts...Does anyone know a Model/Make of a Professional TBC?..Plus 'Seeker 47'...I hope the "Steel Curtain" never Falls on your Digital Cable and from what I have learned there are some International DVD Recorders that do not recognize the CGMS/A & Broadcast Flags....VegasBud..Thank You for the Info on DVD Dymystified..I am Analyzing it as I Type...Pinetop/TheCoalman...All Posts I have read about Hauppage seem to be very Positive about circumventing Macrovision and CGMS/A.....I am Curious as to the Quality of the Capture I have heard of "Color Shifting" but have yet to see the Results Firsthand......Lastly....Does anyone have anymore Info or Experience with the Zorrilla Video Filter?....Thanks Again - John

[Seeker47]

Since this all revolves around CGMS-A, and its' removal, it may be of interest that in the "DVD FAQ" by Jim Taylor (last update Jan. 9, 2007), he lists several devices that will remove mv, but the only device he lists that will remove CGMS-A is "Professional time-base correctors (TBCs) that regenerate lines 20 and 21".

As far as I've ever been able to determine, the main difference between a "professional" tbc and a "prosumer" tbc (like the tbc-1000 and the avt-8710) is the professional can selectively alter the fields, and the prosumer models just regenerate the whole vbi. At the very least, I have personally verified that an avt-8710 removes closed captions (line 21), and it's common knowledge that the prosumer models remove mv (line 20).

Where is the dividing line between models ? Does the TBC-3000 cross over into professional territory, or are we talking even much more expensive than that ? (I'm also wondering why the TBC-1000 bothers to include Audio In / Out, but the 3000 model, which costs more than twice the price of the 1000, does not.) I have tried several times to purchase one of the TBCs you mentioned. The one thing I can tell you absolutely is that Ebay buyers are incredible fuckin' idiots, or get completely caught up in the heat of bidding, or, maybe some are in a position where they don't have to care what things cost. Most likely option #1. A "lightly used" TBC 1000 auction just recently closed at $365. Now, you can buy a brand new one -- with whatever mfr. warranty it comes with, which you surely can't get on a used item -- for about $375. I've seen people on Ebay buy all sorts of items that are not rare and not collectibles for around 50 bucks less than what a brand new one sells for. And then there is the shipping costs, and the risks you take in buying something used there. IDIOTS !

I may just be weird this way, but if I buy something used I'm looking for a price no higher than about 50 % of new. Go higher than that, even on an expensive piece of gear, and I'd much rather buy a new one with a warranty. Even at full price. Of course, if something is rare, difficult to obtain, and much in demand, that will change this calculus.

Unfortunately, the only way to really prove a tbc is effective against CGMS-A would require that someone actually tests a tbc against CGMS-A. For some reason, there are people who already have a tbc, and there are people who have run up against CGMS-A, but I've yet to hear of a single person who belonged to both groups.

Yeah, that is a curious coincidence. But if I am forced to defeat CGMS-A with some gizmo, I will make a point of returning here to report my findings.

..Plus 'Seeker 47'...I hope the "Steel Curtain" never Falls on your Digital Cable and from what I have learned there are some International DVD Recorders that do not recognize the CGMS/A & Broadcast Flags....

Yeah, probably something like that $1500. job LordSmurf was talking about not too long ago.

I am Curious as to the Quality of the Capture I have heard of "Color Shifting" but have yet to see the Results Firsthand......Lastly....Does anyone have anymore Info or Experience with the Zorrilla Video Filter?....Thanks Again - John

I have the Sima CT-200 (the more expensive of their two models). That one is supposed to remove MV. It definitely color shifts and has brightness changes in my experience, also borne out by others' reports. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether this is inherent to the device, or just indicates a defective unit. If and when I run into CGMS-A, I can test the Sima on it . . . but those problems make it an unsuitable choice, whatever it does re being able to make a copy. I'm curious about the Zorilla also. As you already know, it does claim to defeat the copy prohibition.

[LJB]

My ADS DVDXpressDX2 works just fine with HBO on Demand and Comcast.

[VegasBud]

Seeker47,

Probably, like most things in life, there isn't so much a dividing line between the two categories, but more an overlapping zone between them. To me, it seems logical that a professional unit would have features that are of little, or no use to to a prosumer...like genlock, for example.

Since this thread concerns CGMS-A, those added professional features shouldn't come into play. Whether the tbc relies on an internally generated signal, or an externally generated one shouldn't have an effect on the actual processing of one video signal, which is what this thread is about, so I can't see where a prosumer tbc would be any less effective at removing CGMS-A than a professional tbc.

By the way, it must have been awhile since you looked at prices for the tbc-1000. B&H Photo currently lists them as $475. A "lightly used" one for $365 isn't a bad deal (relatively speaking, of course).

[GreatSinatraFan]

Just a thought.... why can't an existing software, such as Restream; be modified to enable the CGMS-A broadcast flags to be changed to "RECORD ALWAYS"? This would be a simple solution.. just run the captured video through a software such as this. Problem solved !

I dunno if this would work.. I'm no expert...but.. hey.. the software solution would probably be a lot less expensive than buying expensive hardware to eliminate this irritation.

I'm not able to do this myself..but I betcha that someone here might be able to create a software that would enable this needed modification in the CGMS-A broadcast flags !

Just a suggestion.

[JohnnyMalaria]

I'm not able to do this myself..but I betcha that someone here might be able to create a software that would enable this needed modification in the CGMS-A broadcast flags !

Just a suggestion.

If you capture using DV, you can do that with our software - even while it is being captured. Alternatively, with DV, you can regenerate it (i.e., force render) with Movie Maker (for example) and destroy the CGMS-A signal.

If you already have a DV cam with pass-through capability, our software provides a free solution to the problem.

If you have two DV cams each with pass-through capability, the commercial version of our software will let you strip the CGMS-A signal in real-time. Basically, your PC becomes a black-box for removing the signal. Cheaper than the TBC option and just as fast!

[GreatSinatraFan]

Johnny, thanks for the reply.. yes.. your software is fine for those who capture via DV; but it doesn't provide a solution for the rest of us who don't have DV cams at all. Most of us use ordinary Capture Cards, (ATI, ect.) so, although your software will work for those with DV Cams.. this really isn't a practical solution for the rest of us. Thanks anyway ~

Unless there is a possibility that you might be willing to modify your existing software, or perhaps create another software, so that captured video streams from ANY source (any ordinary video capture card, or DVD-R, or DVD-+RW) would be able to change the CGMS-A flags. Now that's a good idea!

[SmokieStover]

CGMS-A has been voluntarily accepted by some CE manufactures for certain of their devices. NO STANDARD VHS VCR'S are prevented from recording an analog program broadcast that has any kind of CGMS-A.....it will record the CGSM-A right along with the program and the recording can be dubbed to any device that does not recognize CGMS-A. There are some S-VHS recorders that obey CGSM-A.

The last time I checked the specs on an analog stand alone DVD recorder, it ONLY RECOGNIZED CGMS-A ON THE COMPONENT INPUTS.

TIVO's with DVD burners (at least the latest ones) do obey CGSM-A and more crap as well. If you need a Cable Box to watch HBO, maybe anything is possible on the analog outputs, including MV........so who knows about PPV or VOD.

I don't believe there are many PC TV Tuner Cards that recognize CGMS-A when recording with their native software. MS MCE DOES (I think with any Card) AND SHOULD BE AVOIDED. I would also stear clear of the ATI 650 Pro which has "Hardware DRM".

If anyone wants to check if CGMS-A could affect them on analog cable, have a friend make a VHS recording of part of any movie or program broadcast on HBO analog........a 1 Hour recording would be more than enough. Play the tape into your card and let us know what happened. A simliar check can be attempted on the analog output from a cable box.

[lacywest]

What channel are we talking about ?? HBO HD ??

I used my Directv HR10-250 hard drive to record the HBO HD 509 channel.

I sent the signal over to my Polaroid 2001G and it is recording.

Hmmm ??

Date is ........ Saturday March 3rd 2007 ... time is 1:20 PM ... Pacific Time

Oh about an hour ealier ... I tried to record a DVD from the Phillips 5960 to the front video composite input of the Polaroid 2001G and it played fine until I hit the record button ... message popped up saying there is a problem of so and so ... I then hooked up my Sima GoDVD ... toy and the problem was not a problem anymore.

[SmokieStover]

What channel are we talking about ?? HBO HD ??

We are talking about an analog broadcast flag scheme (NOT SCRAMBLING) adopted to limit recording/copying/viewing that was worked out "In The Corner" about 10 years ago. This can apply to all over the air and cable analog broadcast. The real question is what recording hardware and/or software recognizes it. NONE are required by law to recognize it!

It has nothing to do with DirecTV, which is all digital broadcasting and which is different from OTA Digital and Cable Digital. Digital broadcast flags are another matter.

By the way, what inputs are you using from Sat box to DVD recorder?

[painkiller]

JohnnyMalaria,

Quick question, how about using an AVDC-100? (which I use instead of a DV camera)??

[JohnnyMalaria]

JohnnyMalaria,

Quick question, how about using an AVDC-100? (which I use instead of a DV camera)??

I don't have any direct experience with the AVDC-100, but I don't see why not.

[Wile_E]

The older versions of ADVC-100 and 300 allow you to bypass Macrovision. The ADVC-110 and newer versions of 100/300 doesn't allow it. On the 100, I believe you hold the input button for about 10 seconds or so to disable it. On the 300, you hold both the down and up button together for a certain amount of time.

[painkiller]

Yes, thank you.
And, I have been aware of using the Macrovision defeat on the model I bought quite some time ago.

[Seeker47]

The last time I checked the specs on an analog stand alone DVD recorder, it ONLY RECOGNIZED CGMS-A ON THE COMPONENT INPUTS.

TIVO's with DVD burners (at least the latest ones) do obey CGSM-A and more crap as well. If you need a Cable Box to watch HBO, maybe anything is possible on the analog outputs, including MV........so who knows about PPV or VOD.

Hmmm. Still no problem with either the Pioneer 520 or 640 . . . so, either you're correct and they don't obey it, or else TW is not yet doing this on their digital service. (Or on the analog service I mentioned in my last post.) In the digital hookups, I'm going S-Vid out of their STB into S-Vid on the Pioneers. In the analog example, the hookup is just straight cable out of the wall, no STB.

I guess it might take a test with VOD or PPV to be sure. If and when I try those, I'll report on it here. I suppose I could try a component connection, though, given the much older TVs I have, I just never saw the point in buying component cabling (for the DVR), which tends to be pricier. It would have to yield a dramatically superior picture on the movies I record to be worth doing this, and I wouldn't see the proof of it until those TVs get replaced with contemporary models. The possible copying snafu would clearly be a negative tradeoff for this.

Still very dubious that Dogtales is right about VOD being free with an HBO (or any other premium channel) subscription. Certainly, TW has never offered any mention of this, nor Adelphi before them. But I'll ask them directly.

[lacywest]

What channel are we talking about ?? HBO HD ??

We are talking about an analog broadcast flag scheme (NOT SCRAMBLING) adopted to limit recording/copying/viewing that was worked out "In The Corner" about 10 years ago. This can apply to all over the air and cable analog broadcast. The real question is what recording hardware and/or software recognizes it. NONE are required by law to recognize it!

It has nothing to do with DirecTV, which is all digital broadcasting and which is different from OTA Digital and Cable Digital. Digital broadcast flags are another matter.

By the way, what inputs are you using from Sat box to DVD recorder?

Component Video ... red yellow blue

Not sure if I'm going to have problems or not ... but I've got the component video split off to my Pioneer Receiver the VSX-1015TX and to my Polaroid 2001G with Y splitters.

Yesterday I was watching previously recorded TV shows and the picture was behaving wierd ... kept getting pauses and the picture kept ... blacking out ... and returning ... similar to what I see when I switch the Directv box from 1080 to 480 [I have to change it to 480 to record to the Panasonic or to the Polaroid]

I saw that the Polaroid was on ... so I turned it off and the wierd behavior stopped.

HDTV signals will pass through the Polaroid when it is turned off.

I'm not using fancy video component cables to provide a signal ... just simple phono cables ... white = blue ... yellow = green and red = red.

As for more detailed details ... yesterday when this was happening ... I had just got back home from working three 8 hour shifts from Saturday evening 4PM to 8AM Monday morning.

With a 40 mile drive to work ... in the 8 hours I had off ... close to two hours was used up driving to and from work.

I was tired ... very tired ... with bags under my eyes.

Most likely I will get a component video distribution amplier ... since I'm seeing problems that are most likely related to using Y-Splitters for component video cables.

[Spilt_milk]

wont this block line 20 and 21 mv and line 20 and 21 cgsm/a

http://www.xdimax.com/grex/grex.html#TVG

it seems to be a ergonamic version of the zorilla filter

its cheaper than AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector, sima copymaster and defitely a prof. tbc.

and it CLAIMS to output ost cable box for movie channels.

Grex removes all kinds of video protections including Macrovision Level I, Macrovision Level II ( Color stripe x 2 ), Macrovision Level III ( Color stripe x 4 ), CGMS, CGMS-A, Digital Broadcasting Flags. This way Grex opens you so called Analogue Protection Hole and let you copy and transfer any protected video content.

Grex will let you record protected TV channels from SAT/Cable Receiver, STB, PVR, DVR, TiVo

I think this thing pwns/trump everything you guys mentioned thus far

[dogtales]

Spilt_milk
I've looked into the Grex and it has not provided a Solution for the CGMS-A Signal....Plus I was told it has it's HQ in Israel so returning the Grex is Very Costly..I was told the Grex promises many things but Ultimately does not Deliver..I am still looking at the Strengths & Weaknesses of the Zorilla...Thanks For Posting.....John

[danwhitehead1]

I ordered a Grex early yesterday morning. They took my money but have not sent an e-mail confirmation of the order as they said they would. Also my e-mails to them regarding an order confirmation have not been answered. Are they still in business? Have I been ripped off?

[jman98]

I ordered a Grex early yesterday morning. They took my money but have not sent an e-mail confirmation of the order as they said they would. Also my e-mails to them regarding an order confirmation have not been answered. Are they still in business? Have I been ripped off?

If you paid by credit card and you get nothing, you can always protest the charge. I have protested 4 charges in my life and won them all. All you have to is show you made an order and tell your credit card company that you received nothing. It's up the sender to prove they sent it to you. Once one of my credit cards had a fraudulent charge for an expensive art book that got shipped to Germany (I live in the USA). I never heard of the shop that claimed I placed the order. The order wasn't placed in my name nor was it shipped to my name, nor was it shipped to the country where I lived. The book store was unable to produce any evidence that I ordered the book. I have always suspected that they had no way of knowing what name was associated with the credit card, they just took it and saw the charge go through. It was ridiculously simple to prove my side as the store had nothing to show I had placed the order and the charge was removed from my bill. When you protest a charge, the credit card companies are on YOUR side, not the merchant's. If you can document not getting what you paid for, it is a slam dunk refund for you. If you paid by some other method, you're most likely out the money.

[danwhitehead1]

Well, that's encouraging. Thank you jman 98. Do you happen to know if the people who make Grex are even still in business? Or have the powers of greed shut them down?

[Seeker47]

Unfortunately, the only way to really prove a tbc is effective against CGMS-A would require that someone actually tests a tbc against CGMS-A. For some reason, there are people who already have a tbc, and there are people who have run up against CGMS-A, but I've yet to hear of a single person who belonged to both groups.

I have since joined the first group, but am still waiting on that 2nd. problem. Should it rear its ugly head, I'll let you know whether or not the TBC was effective. (The analog HBO service at location 2 is now history, so I will only be dealing with their digital cable service from here on out.)

[JBC]

Well DirecTV must have the analog scheme in place now because I set up my fathers system utilizing the S-VHS and L/R Audio out from the DirecTV receiver to the inputs of a Sony VHS/DVD combo recorder and it refused to copy the signal saying something about it being protected or something similar, I can't remember verbatim. He's angered because he wanted to try recording to DVD. He bought a DVD recorder and now it looks like he's got a DVD player instead. I think this whole issue stinks for the casual video entertainment fan. Now Pirates making money is a different thing entirely, I say burn those guys.

Think about it they just keep putting their hands in your pocket deeper and deeper. Remember when Cable TV meant "NO COMMERCIALS," Yeah right! And how about one of the main purposes of a VCR, which was unattended recording because a show came on at 3AM, or you had to go out of town or just work late. Why have a recording device at all, except for family stuff that is (excluding bachelors). What you thought you bought in the past just isn’t included anymore. So why'd you spend the money?

[danwhitehead1]

Well DirecTV must have the analog scheme in place now because I set up my fathers system utilizing the S-VHS and L/R Audio out from the DirecTV receiver to the inputs of a Sony VHS/DVD combo recorder and it refused to copy the signal saying something about it being protected or something similar, I can't remember verbatim. He's angered because he wanted to try recording to DVD. He bought a DVD recorder and now it looks like he's got a DVD player instead. I think this whole issue stinks for the casual video entertainment fan. Now Pirates making money is a different thing entirely, I say burn those guys.

Think about it they just keep putting their hands in your pocket deeper and deeper. Remember when Cable TV meant "NO COMMERCIALS," Yeah right! And how about one of the main purposes of a VCR, which was unattended recording because a show came on at 3AM, or you had to go out of town or just work late. Why have a recording device at all, except for family stuff that is (excluding bachelors). What you thought you bought in the past just isn’t included anymore. So why'd you spend the money?

My sentiments exactly. That's why I bought a Grex. I just received word that it's on it's way. I sure hope it works. You know, there HAS to be some way to bring down these greedy swine.

[Seeker47]

Well DirecTV must have the analog scheme in place now because I set up my fathers system utilizing the S-VHS and L/R Audio out from the DirecTV receiver to the inputs of a Sony VHS/DVD combo recorder and it refused to copy the signal saying something about it being protected or something similar

This sounds odd to me, because I did a similar setup for a relative: both analog TW and DirecTV being fed into a Pioneer 520 (an older Pioneer dvr model), using S-Video connections. So far, we are still recording from either, at will. The only things we have not tried recording are PPV or On-Demand stuff. This leads me to wonder if you might get different results with something other than the Sony combo unit ?

[JBC]

This leads me to wonder if you might get different results with something other than the Sony combo unit ?

I hear you. Unfortunately this new purchase has been plagued with problems.

The retailer in question is SAM's, anyway he bought one unit before I came into the picture (he's video/audio/computer technology ignorant) and returned it as defective. While he was at it he decided to upgrade to a nicer unit so he bought a Sony, but still couldn't get it to work. I entered the scene and found the Sony to be legitimately DOA. He returned it for an even nicer unit (Panasonic).

When I went to install that unit I noted that it only had an optical Digital Audio out and his Bose system required a Coaxial. I told him that he would either have to upgrade his Bose to a receiver having an optical in and buy the expensive cable required (they never supply those) or I'd do some research to see if an Optical to Coaxial adapter was available. In the meantime he takes it back and swaps it for another Sony hoping he gets a good one (I had found an adapter by the way).

So I connect it up and everything works great, so I recommend he thinks about buying some DVD media and mention DVD+R, DVD+R DL and DVD+RW. So he goes out and buys it all plus cases and spends in excess of $200.00 just on media. He goes home to try it and finds out he can't record from DirecTV, or his store bought VHS/DVD originals (the US law allowing 1 archival backup). So now he's really discouraged and wants to take all the media back except the opened box of DVD+RW's (cause he figures they won’t take it).

He said he was thinking of taking the Sony back as well but he'll keep it because of other features it has. However he later admitted to me that he feels just a wee bit bad and embarrassed about returning product this many times over what amounts to one purchase.

Also consider that since he retired he no longer lives in the city and that it’s about 50 miles one way to the SAM’s where he shops. I seriously doubt he'll consider taking back a working unit in hopes it will do as he originally hoped. With his luck the next unit that SAM's carries will be worse than what he’s got now.

I keep telling him that he should contact me before he makes any purchases of audio/video or computer gear so I can do some research on the Internet, but he doesn’t listen. Now that he’s retired he’s an impulse buyer. I guess he has to have a hobby!

[danwhitehead1]

My Grex arrived today. I've already tested it and it works perfectly.

[Rich86]

Here is another solution - do not subscribe to HBO.
That is my approach to the problem.
As long as folks continue to send their money to HBO regardless of how they further reduce the functionality of their service and programming, they will continue to do whatever they please. Shut off the flow of money - that is all they care about.

[Seeker47]

What I meant was that when you Subscribe to HBO you also Receive HBO VOD as part of your Subscription..........

I was skeptical when you reported that, but I now see that you were correct. This seems to apply to all -- or at least most -- of the major Premium services. Even better, I've now done a couple of tests with it, from my digital cable. No problem recording it to HDD, or transferring the result onto dvd. There may turn out to be some exceptions, and I would not expect to be able to do this with their PPV, but so far I can't complain. On the basis of this, it looks like this is still a matter of the policies of your particular service provider. (And some recording gear being a lot more sensitive than others.)