Time Warner Cable & HBO No longer as of this Week allow you to Record

[dogtales]

Has anyone Experienced this or found a way to Block, Filter or Circumvent This??
HBO and other VOD's now use CGMS/A copy protection System Signals
http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml
I can't believe I can't Record VOD to my VCR as of only this Week....Any Help Appreciated....John
Toshiba M-Series VCR & Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250 Cable Box

[lumis]

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=300496

Take a look at that thread.

There is a device that will remove the CGMS-A signal, as well as some talk about TBC's. It should lead you to a solution to your problem, it will cost you though.

[dogtales]

lumis ----
I've been looking at this Unit for two Days..It seems to be the 'Front Runner'....I'm sure we will have more posts on GGMS-A signal as I hear it will be very prevalent in the Near Future...........Thank You for your response and Please if you or anyone else finds out any new info rizkybusiness99@yahoo.com

[thecoalman]

$150 bucks seems a little steep to me for device that isn't doing anything more than blanking or modifying a line. I'd wait until you find out if a TBC works and if so spend the extra cash and get a TBC. Won't be long before someone finds out if it hasn't already been posted. I'd test it myself but have no brodcast to test it with.

[dphirschler]

I just wanted to say that this sucks.


Darryl

[dogtales]

theCoalMan.....
TBC...Time Based Corrector??..Thanks For Posting....John

[thecoalman]

That's correct... if you're going to spend that kind of money you might as well get something that actually does something if a TBC will work.

On a side note there was a similar thread ayear or two ago about another type of protection (may even be the same one) . The poster was able to capture with a DV cam but if he tried to send the file back to the cam it would come up with a copy protection error. Apprently the protection flag resided in the AVI header, simply creating a new file alleviated it. Lossless but a PITA.

[dogtales]

TheCoalMan
Thanks Again.....This post has seen a Surprising amount of Views.......Maybe some of the Vid Experts out there can list any Copy Protections they know of Besides Level 1 through 4 Macrovision........

[Wile_E]

So what about recording to Time Warner DVR or TIVO? It won't record? If people can't timeshift and record their shows, Time Warner will lose business.

[JohnnyMalaria]

If you have some form of DV device (a camcorder or converter) you can get around the CGMS-A with our Enosoft DV Processor.

Specifically, feed the analog signal from your cable into a DV cam that has pass through or a converter box and capture to your PC. If the DV cam does what it is supposed to do, it will detect the CGMS-A signal and encode it into the DV data stream. Ordinarily, if you try to send the captured DV from the PC back to the DV cam, the DV cam will refuse to record it due to the encoded CGMS-A signal. Our software lets you change the CGMS-A flag.

I've confirmed this with protected DVDs, a Sony DSR-11 DV deck and a handful of Sony miniDV cams. Hooking a DVD player up via analog connections to the DV deck and trying to record a protected DVD results in the DV deck flashing "COPY INHIBIT" on the screen and disabling the recording function.

However, you can still capture to the computer via FireWire, toggle the CGMS-A flag and send it back. Now, the DV deck will record it quite merrily.

The software can change the flag while the capture is occurring - there's no processing required afterwards. If you happen to have two DV devices, you can do the whole thing on the fly without even having to capture to disk. That way, you could set up something like this in real-time:

Analog signal with CGMS-A ----> DV cam 1 ----> FireWire ----> PC running our software ----> FireWire ----> DV cam 2 ----> Analog signal without CGMS-A

[Nelson37]

This is apparently not happening with my satellite service, no issues so far.

Recently confirmed my old Sima CopyMaster removes Closed Captions completely. $40.00. Similar product seen recently $59.95 I think. Not a true TBC, but I wonder what effect it would have on this issue, just as a technical curiosity.

If removing that area is all that is needed, this would make the true TBC a better buy for the $150.00 range, and the $50 black box an option in some cases.

[lumis]

If I understood HBO's policy they're just stopping you from recording their "on demand" content, which they say offers time-shifting features, eliminating your need to record it.

As far as their network broadcasts, they allow you to make one copy, but no subsequent copies.

[dogtales]

So what about recording to Time Warner DVR or TIVO? It won't record? If people can't timeshift and record their shows, Time Warner will lose business.

It's not just DVR's that can't record....It is VCR's as Well that are receiving the "No Copy"
Broadcast Flag......John

[thecoalman]

As far as their network broadcasts, they allow you to make one copy, but no subsequent copies.

Along those lines it appears that would only work in the case where you have recorded to a device that recognizes the protection which I've no doubt is all devices capable of recording digitally, however I see JohnnyMalaria confirmed what I posted above, so I'll have to say... what a joke. I found it quite odd when it was posted before that a device would allow you to capture file but then would refuse to let you send it back to the device. Once on a computer for this to be effective every piece of software would have to recognize the copy protection and obey it which isn't going to happen.

The post I was referring too can be found here: https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=274473&highlight=protection

I took my 15 frame sample clip and tried that and it failed with the same message. I reencoded with the panasonic dv codec and the camera takes it

I don't know if this is the same thing we are tdiscussing here, also note the OP had no trouble at all creating a DVD disc, the only issue he had was with the original file captured from the DV cam. In this case it would practically useless on a consumer level, very few people are sending DV footage back to the cam.

[dogtales]

If I understood HBO's policy they're just stopping you from recording their "on demand" content, which they say offers time-shifting features, eliminating your need to record it.

As far as their network broadcasts, they allow you to make one copy, but no subsequent copies.

Thanks Again for Posting.....The "No Copy" Broadcast Flag is now VOD but later this year Expands to all Tier HBO & Cinemax.......Plus all VOD from all Stations under Time Warner Cable has the "No Copy" Broadcast Flag.......John

[dogtales]

Johnny Malaria..Thank You for Giving me another Option to Look into....John

[dogtales]

So Far I am Looking at Two Main Options.......
Zorrilla Video Filter & AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector......Any other Ideas Appreciated......
"the coalman" Thanks for opening up other avenues of Insight...John
P.S. Does Anyone have any experience with Dimax Grex Stabilizer or the Facet Video Clarifier SX ???

[thecoalman]

So Far I am Looking at Two Main Options.......
Zorrilla Video Filter & AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector

To be clear I don't know that a TBC is going to help, my suggestion was to find out if someone has tested it and knows it will.

$150 bucks seems a little steep to me for device that isn't doing anything more than blanking or modifying a line. I'd wait until you find out if a TBC works and if so spend the extra cash and get a TBC.

[Seeker47]

If I understood HBO's policy they're just stopping you from recording their "on demand" content, which they say offers time-shifting features, eliminating your need to record it.

As far as their network broadcasts, they allow you to make one copy, but no subsequent copies.

Thanks Again for Posting.....The "No Copy" Broadcast Flag is now VOD but later this year Expands to all Tier HBO & Cinemax.......Plus all VOD from all Stations under Time Warner Cable has the "No Copy" Broadcast Flag.......John

I've never ordered any VOD, and if that continues to be the case, this wouldn't matter to me. However, I'm wondering if anyone else read that HBO press release the same way I did. Recording a program to HDD (for timeshift) could be considered your 1st. and only allowable record pass. Let's say you have only an 80G HDD, as I do on the Pioneer 520, and so regularly dump off not yet viewed stuff to DVD -- not because you're ever going to pass it around or put it out there over P2P, but just to clear off space from the HDD to keep it from getting filled up. That might count as Recording #2, and would be blocked, if we're talking strict observance of the BF. And that kinda turns your $400. DVR into an expensive paperweight, don't it ?

A policy like that -- if it can't be counteracted by some electronic means -- is the sort of thing that would lead me to seriously reconsider several of my premium service subscriptions.

[dogtales]

Seeker47.......There are many forms of VOD...If you have a Digital Cable Box (Time Warner Cable)...There are many channels of free downloads Ex: HGTV, Cartoon Network, CNN etc. & HBO VOD on demand is free with purchase of HBO Channel Subscription.....As of this week ALL VOD is unrecordable even with the Simple VCR....ALL VOD has a Broadcast Flag of "No Copy"...............Thanks For Posting - John

[loster]

Broadcast flag is not the same as CGMS-A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

[Seeker47]

Broadcast flag is not the same as CGMS-A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

O.K. But whatever technical element it is within the signal that prevents recording is going to be unacceptable to a great many users.

VOD on demand is free with purchase of HBO Channel Subscription.

Gee, that's news to me. I really wonder if TW is going to agree with that statement, if I ask them.

[dogtales]

Broadcast flag is not the same as CGMS-A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

O.K. But whatever technical element it is within the signal that prevents recording is going to be unacceptable to a great many users.

VOD on demand is free with purchase of HBO Channel Subscription.

Gee, that's news to me. I really wonder if TW is going to agree with that statement, if I ask them.

What I meant was that when you Subscribe to HBO you also Receive HBO VOD as part of your Subscription..........J

[opusx]

I've never ordered any VOD, and if that continues to be the case, this wouldn't matter to me. However, I'm wondering if anyone else read that HBO press release the same way I did. Recording a program to HDD (for timeshift) could be considered your 1st. and only allowable record pass. Let's say you have only an 80G HDD, as I do on the Pioneer 520, and so regularly dump off not yet viewed stuff to DVD -- not because you're ever going to pass it around or put it out there over P2P, but just to clear off space from the HDD to keep it from getting filled up. That might count as Recording #2, and would be blocked, if we're talking strict observance of the BF. And that kinda turns your $400. DVR into an expensive paperweight, don't it ?

A policy like that -- if it can't be counteracted by some electronic means -- is the sort of thing that would lead me to seriously reconsider several of my premium service subscriptions.

That is exactly my situation. I certainly have more than 80g of space, however, I don't like having an over abundance of video on my pc and like to back it up. I never sell video or trade it on the net. This CGMS-A is even worse though, when I record it with windows media center that is the only way I can watch it. I can't send it to my external hd, I can't keepit on my pc and watch it with windows media player or VLC instead of media center. If I record it on my pc and want to watch it on my big screen why shouldn't I be able to dump it on a DVD and go watch it. Or if I want to watch it in my bedrrom before going to sleep with my wife, why can't I put it on DVD and o that. I really think HBO has gone overboard with this and am determined to find a way around it. They didn't go broke in the 80's or early 90's when people regularly recorded things on a VCR and then brought it to a friends house to watch. I am not even trying to go that far and I am still being restricted. Technology can be a blessing and a curse. But seriously, why was it ok for so long to do on a VCR and all of a sudden 30 years later it's changed?

[dogtales]

opusx....
The Broadcast Flags with Time Warner Cable not just HBO are being changed to "Two" from the original "'Three"....1) Record Once & 2) Record Never.......'Record Always' is being Phased out......A Recording to a Hard Drive is considered #1.....Dubbing or Offloading to a DVD-R is considered #2 but this is also dependent on how your Component determines the Broadcasting Flags..........Thanks For Posting John

[Seeker47]

opusx....
The Broadcast Flags with Time Warner Cable not just HBO are being changed to "Two" from the original "'Three"....1) Record Once & 2) Record Never.......'Record Always' is being Phased out......A Recording to a Hard Drive is considered #1.....Dubbing or Offloading to a DVD-R is considered #2 but this is also dependent on how your Component determines the Broadcasting Flags..........Thanks For Posting John

I thought this was supposed to be going into effect immediately, but I've just run some tests with HBO & TW in two cities, and haven't run into this yet. One was an analog cable service, which was supposed to be getting phased out anyway, though this has not yet happened. The other was on digital cable. In both cases, the recording was done with Pioneer DVDRs, but different models. (Note that there is some hardware out there -- Polaroid, some earlier Lite-On models ? -- that might not obey whatever they are passing in their signal.) Note also that I am only dumping off one copy to dvd, temporarily, and for the previously mentioned reasons. {In the tests I just ran, I did try a couple HS copies of the same title to -RWs in VR mode, and was not blocked from doing so -- for whatever that may be worth.}

Maybe they just haven't dropped the steel curtain quite yet, though. If and when they do, I'll seek out effective tech countermeasures, or terminate my cable subscriptions should that become impossible. Without timeshifting, their service would become worthless to me.

[VegasBud]

Since this all revolves around CGMS-A, and its' removal, it may be of interest that in the "DVD FAQ" by Jim Taylor (last update Jan. 9, 2007), he lists several devices that will remove mv, but the only device he lists that will remove CGMS-A is "Professional time-base correctors (TBCs) that regenerate lines 20 and 21".

As far as I've ever been able to determine, the main difference between a "professional" tbc and a "prosumer" tbc (like the tbc-1000 and the avt-8710) is the professional can selectively alter the fields, and the prosumer models just regenerate the whole vbi. At the very least, I have personally verified that an avt-8710 removes closed captions (line 21), and it's common knowledge that the prosumer models remove mv (line 20).

Unfortunately, the only way to really prove a tbc is effective against CGMS-A would require that someone actually tests a tbc against CGMS-A. For some reason, there are people who already have a tbc, and there are people who have run up against CGMS-A, but I've yet to hear of a single person who belonged to both groups.

As a footnote, if you don't know who Jim Taylor is, here's some information about him. You also can take a look at the whole DvdDemystified site.

[pinetop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CGMS/A copy protection System Signals would have no effect on a capture card.
Anyone know if this is true?
If so hello Hauppauge.

[loster]

some capture cards do not see or can be set to not see macrovision or CGMS-A

[thecoalman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CGMS/A copy protection System Signals would have no effect on a capture card.
Anyone know if this is true?
If so hello Hauppauge.

That would be device dependant, as far as a MV goes the Hauppage doesn't "look" for the MV flag, other devices like a Canopus ADVC, ATI AIW... look for the MV siganal. The same would be true of CGMS/A.