Recovering 'Lost' Recordings on Disc in Panasonic DMR-ES30VS

[wellsie7]

I have searched all terms I could think of & have not found this exact problem, so please forgive me if it is in the archives, but I didn't find it ...

I have been taping programs onto a Sony DVD +R with this combo recorder, and have had a relatively good experience so far over the last year and a half plus. Unfortunately, we lost power during the storm on Wednesday, and when the recorder was turned back on it was showing that the disc was empty, despite it having five hours of programming on it. Something similar happened another time with a disc I dubbed (sans power outage that time and that was a Fuji DVD +R disc) - the programs seem to be there, but it won't let me finalize the disc & says that there isn't any time left (and there should be about 2 hours available).

I have three questions:

1) What causes this?

2) Can I recover these programs? If so, how?

3) How can I prevent this in the future?

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

[trhouse]

3) How can I prevent this in the future?

Uninterruptible power supply.

[guns1inger]

ISOBuster might be able to see the contents of unfinalised sessions.

[wellsie7]

Thanks so much guns1inger & trhouse. I will definitely try ISOBuster. Hopefully that will work.

I still don't understand how a power outage could cause this, though. I have a surge protector, so it seems it would be analogous to unplugging the recorder & then plugging it back in. Does that mean if you did that with a disc inside, it would corrupt the disc? Also, I had the corruption problem that one other time independent of a power outage. Any other theories on this.

Thanks!

[trhouse]

Surge protectors protect against short spikes in the line voltage. For example, if you have two products plugged into the same outlet and suddenly unplug one, the line voltage might jump for an instant.

Power outages are not the same as if you unplug the unit. Have you heard of the term brown out? During power outages, the voltage can jump or go down and stay there for longer than a surge protector can protect against. For example, the line voltage might drop to 60 VAC from 120 VAC and stay there for awhile so the house lights are dim. The recorder might still partly function but there is no orderly or predictable shut down.

Even the best media has a few percent failures that have nothing to do with the recorder.

Some uninterruptible power supplies have a cable that goes to the usb port of a computer. Software supplied by the UPS manufacturer can initiate and orderly shutdown if desired. Recorders cannot take advantage of this feature unfortunately.

[wellsie7]

Thanks again, trhouse. I think that I had a full blackout as opposed to a brownout (like in the summer), but your post was very informative just for my personal education about this stuff. I had thought that UPSs were overkill for anything beyond computers or very expensive electronics. Do you suggest them for even regular TV / DVD recorder set-ups such as mine?

Thanks again.

[TBoneit]

I wouldn't run my DVRs, Tivo or Dishnetwork, without a UPS. I have ALL of my home AV equipment plugged into one.

[wellsie7]

Okay - thanks for the info ... Any recommendations for a good one for this purpose? Not too expensive, hopefully.

[LCSHG]

wellsie7

Was the 5 hr's of recording all one recording or was there a number of them, all with thumbnails, and they were on a +R disk Not a +RW

[nixie]

I've used Isobuster on unfinalized discs made by a Pioneer 510H and it was able to recover the data.

[wellsie7]

Thanks LCSHG & nixie ... Will definitely try ISOBuster (hopefully tonight).

LCSHG: the disc was a few different programs (1 or 2 hour length), and it was not an RW disc.

[LCSHG]

wellsie7

Just for info

I record primarily to a HDD and than transfer to a disk +/-R or +RW
I use mainly Verbatim +/-R and +RW but have used Maxell, Memorex, etc. All have worked well and with the same result.
Because of some problems I had in the past, and corrected, I did some testing with simulated power failures.

If, Recording a program to The HDD and there are other programs on the HDD and there is a power failure, of any duration. I will lose the entire program being recorded but the other programs will remain. Such a problem is mostly avoided if using a UPS [but see below]

The same is for a +RW disk

If a +/-R disk is used, with, basically, the same programming on it, there would be a good 80% chance that the entire disk contents could be lost and the disk would not finalize
[same remarks for a UPS]
Why
I can only say that it might be the way the disks differ. The +RW disks are phase change and the information is not [Burned] into the disk The +R are Burned in the form of [Pits] and require to be finalized.

A software program such as ISOBbuster can go a long way in correcting or recovering files that may be there even if a stand alone does not see them.

When using a UPS, while burning and there is a power failure there is an almost instantaneous power interruption. Depending on the unit used its possible that while it would not be noticed in the units basic operation. It could cause a momentary glitch or hang when playing the files back. And the only way to repair it would be a program like ISOBustrer
Than again A small glitch that ISOBuster could repair is better than no program at all

Being a firm believer in Murphy’s Law, When installing firmware in a unit I will make sure that, power is supplied by a battery Backup, I built for that and other speciall purposes. Even that can go to ----.


EDIT

ALL problems considered if I had to go for ONE I would most likely go for the UPS [a good one]
Most electronic units power supply will operate on voltages from about 90v t0 140 v below that the breakers on most power companies will trip as the amperage will go to high

[wellsie7]

Wow ... what helpful info. Thanks for taking the time to give me this guidance, LCSHG! ... I will be printing this out and looking into getting a UPS for my living room setup. Thanks again.

[LCSHG]

wellsie7

Thanks and you are welcome

My reply was for info and to answer your questions and it might seem in your case a UPS is an answer for one
Please don't go out and buy a UPS because you feel its recomended

I do not have a UPS. I have an auxiliary power supply that provides power to a unit using a battery. It just makes me feel better when doing specific things. A UPS is nothing more than a Inverter 12v DC to 120V AC but has a blink of an eye response to any power interruption
I have no desire to invest in a UPS especially one that could handle all my equipment and that would be a problem as they are scattered throughout the house, Also consider, if the power fails you must be present to shut down the equipment, [normally]. OR have a Power Management setup which I doubt your unit has. a good UPS will have a low voltage limit And shut the power off when it reaches this. [a very low voltage can cause more damage than a power outage]. When or if that happens you are right back to a power failure. A reasonably priced UPS will not last for much more than 15 or 20 min [With just the recorder on it]
If this takes place and it could you would still lose the last recording

You indicate that you have had this unit for almost a year and a half with no problems. It also seems that you place programs on the disk using max. time I should think the quality is nat the best
I have lost programs and I get a little upset .

So If it was me a UPS is not high on my list. Get some +RW disks and try them out. Put some programs 0n them, Than after about 4 or 5 Pull the plug on the unit like a power failure and than check the disk
I would put my money towards a Unit that had a HDD. The edit is better, recording and transfer is easier. You would be able to reduce the record mode to say SP or LP and have better quality recordings. You don't have to spend a lot to get a decent unit

EDIT
Don't rcord a program to a HDD at say Sp when the volume, say 2hr 10min is greater than a disk capacity. [If you want to put it on a disk]

[wellsie7]

Wow - more great info. Thanks. I guess I have to do a little more research on all of this power stuff. I do record most stuff that I just want to view once at the max time setting. The disc I lost was like an American Experience, Lost and a travel show, so none of it was crucial, but if I can recover it, I would like to. Also, I will go back to tapes if this is a common problem, since the other corrupt disc did have programs I wanted to save (although, as you said, I didn't have a problem for over a year and a half). I would go back to DVR, but we didn't pay for the lifetime subscription and I hate to pay that additional $15 a month for the amount we use it.

Pardon my ignorance, but when you say HDD, do you mean you have a tuner card in your computer and you record to the hard drive? I was thinking of that set up, but I have been holding off on a new computer 'til the Vista bugs shake out.

Meanwhile, I have some RW discs - just never used them. I will give them a try. Also, I have a RAM disc - what do you think of that?

[LCSHG]

wellsie7

For your recording purpose, Go with the +RW disks While they cost a little more they will be cheaper in the long run. They can be erased and reused many times. The unit you have seems fine

Quality for me is not in bit-rates or graphs but what looks good to me In the Real World.
I have seen VHS that looks better than some DVD but to me DVD is better and in longer record modes is much better than VHS. Vhs is analog and can be + or - in quality,DVD is digital and is either on or off as satellite TV

I had a program that was some 5hr 25 min long. Rather than go 6hr mode I recorded on the HDD at 3hr mode [LP] and split the program into two disks
I wouldn’t go back to Tape [although at times I have thought about it]. I would try to lower the recording time to say 3hr LP [increase the bit-rate] and use more disks if you can

I spent some time back trying to recover lost files, While I didn't go all out, I was not successful
The other evening I recorded a program for my wife and than, while in edit, through carelessnes I erased and lost the program' Could I recover it? I had to tell her that I lost it and I can't repeat what she said but I thought I heard said, she was going to get Her own VCR

The HDD I was referring to is in the recorder itself in not a PC. For instance I can record to the internal HDD, Dump the contents or transfer to a CVD disk A HDD has much more space than a disk for programs. Much better to edit and do what I did above
I did use a PC but have not in almost 2yr

DVD-RAM is a very good medium but has not gained a large following and is not compatible with a number of units, It is a Phase change medium similar to the +RW, I would stick with the +RW

As I said I would but my goal to getting a unit with a HDD but for right now It would seem that that the Panasonic is fine for you and your needs

[bcd_61]

Hi, I have a solution that I'd suggest, even though it's already been partly mentioned in this topic.

A quick background for me is that I've lost a number of recordings as well, far more than just two discs. What makes it worse is that some of them are simply not replacable. It's caused me a good deal of grief actually.

With DVD recorders, in my experience, here's the situation. When using DVDR's, you record one program at a time, and you finalize the disc when you no longer wish to record to the disc. Typically speaking, when you record a program, and finish, the disc still needs to be ejected before your DVD unit will "write" necessary updates to the disc, so that the latest recording will actually be recognized on the disc. Usually if you lose power before ejecting, the latest recording will always be lost. But the recordings made before that should still show up on the disc, and the disc should still work fine, assuming that the disc had been ejected after the other previous recordings. However, if you lose power while recording, or if your unit actually freezes or locks up during recording and you have no choice but to unplug the unit, it will essentially erase the entire disc, and turns your precious disc into a coaster.

With DVD+/- RW's, it doesn't quite work the same way. I got sick of losing recordings that can't be replaced, so now I am just recording with RW's in almost all situations. You may have noticed, RW discs don't need to be finalized after being used in a DVD recorder. You can also do more edits using your DVD recorder than you can with a regular DVDR. It's handy because you can always view your DVD in a PC and in other DVD players before the disc is finalized. Also, I suggest reading your unit's manual for additional options/editing features using RW discs, and also for making "RW edits" compatible with all DVD players.
Basically, RW recordings work the same way as DVDR's in terms of losing recordings, except for the fact that as long as a recording has been made, completed, and then ejected so that the unit writes the proper menu/disc additions, then those recordings will never be lost no matter what. In other words, let's say you're doing a recording, and you're worried the unit will freeze or the power will go out, and you don't want to lose what you've just recorded. Simply stop the recording, eject the disc, then re-insert it, and this will guarantee that the recording will never be lost no matter what, even if the unit loses power during a future recording on the same disc. It's good to have that peace of mind. Sometimes I do this between commercials or when I'm really worried about losing something. If the unit loses power during a recording or before the disc has been ejected, then you will lose everything that had been recorded since the last time the disc was ejected or since the last time the unit had written new updates to the disc. But everything before the last time the disc was officially updated will be kept on the disc either way. You'll also still be able to record to the remaining portions of the disc as well.

With regular DVDR's, this is not the case. You can lose an entire disc at any given time, as long as the disc isn't finalized, simply by losing power or having the unit freeze at the wrong time. It's one thing to lose recordings or to lose what you're currently recording, but it actually erases the entire disc, even if you've had the other recordings safely on the same disc for a year or two.

I think the reason for these differences is something to do with the way that the discs are recorded onto with DVD recorders. I've heard that DVDR's are recorded one way (starting at the inner portion, for instance), and DVDRW's are recorded the other way (starting at the outer, wider portion of the disc). I don't remember which is which, but I believe that's the reason why DVDRW discs don't need to be finalized.

I noticed you said you'd consider going back to VHS, and I'd consider using RW discs as an alternative to that, because as long as you eject the disc after the recording, you can be guaranteed that it won't get lost in the future. One thing you can try to do is, when an RW disc is full, you could copy it onto your PC and then burn it onto a regular DVDR, and then re-use the RW disc. A good price for RW discs is about $1 per disc (10 discs for $10), or cheaper if you buy them without cases.

One note, anyone can feel free to correct me if I got something wrong. The above is based on my experience using various models of DVD recorders. If all DVD recorders do not need the disc to be ejected in order to update the disc and menu, then I apologize. I guess it's possible that some of them could do it automatically when a recording is stopped, but I'm not really sure, because then I think there would be a very noticable delay between the time when a recording is stopped and the next time you can start a new recording. In my experience, the disc always needs to be ejected for the unit to write the proper updates.





I will try the ISOBuster program in the future on all of my "coasters", but I have one question/problem. When my discs get 'lost' and turned into a coaster, it's not just that they don't read in my DVD recorder, but they don't read in a PC either. It just shows up as a blank disc. In fact, that's what all unfinalized DVDR's do, even if they have multiple recordings on them. The PC will just read it as blank. So even if ISOBuster was capable of recovering my recordings on a bad disc, I'm not sure how it could read from the disc to begin with if the PC just thinks the disc is blank.

[LCSHG]

bcd_61

Much of what you say is Real World Experience. While the principle may be the same, different recorders can have there own weird quirks.
The process you have laid out works for you and your units and that ‘s the goal. Find the process that works for you and modify it if a better/easier way is found, modify it again.

In my case
When any +/-R disks lost a program, due to power failure or other problems, all programs were lost and they Were Coasters
When any +RW disks were lost it was on the one program and could be erased; The disks were still usable
I also, have not been successful with recovering lost files from a Disk or HDD. In the disk case they report back as blank or most often [Invalid Disk]. This was also reported on a +RW but the disk was salvaged
My units use format Fat 32, my PC OS is Win 98se While I should not have the problems that others might with, another OS or, some off the wall format in the recording unit. I have not had any results in recovering such files that was worth anything
As said I have bee able to correct some other related problems by transferring the VOB files from a disk to the PC and read then that way

Your last observation on ISOBUSTER is a good one
I also would welcome any process that will recover lost files when the disk can not be Recognized.

I think You will find that the Disk Media is the difference in the +/-R and + RW disks
For info. I included the following [It was taken from another post of mine] and is just basic to the general operation of these disks I believe the Information is stored from the inner section to the outer on both
The +/-R is dye based and is actually burned
Tee +RW is phase change and while it not the same, is similar to that of a magnetic recording that rearanges the structure and can than be put back to -0- when erased

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Bellow is some very basic info on disks that were picked out, and I am just passing it on.

DVD are read by a red laser beam which bounces off the spinning surface of the disc and is read by a sensor which interprets each location as a binary digit depending on whether it is reflective or not. How the reflectivity of each spot is altered depends on the type of disc: in read-only discs, for instance, a physical indentation (pit) is made; in some others an organic dye changes color; in DVD+RW discs a metal compound changes phase

RECORDING MECHANISM
During the recording phase, the dye layer of a recordable DVD absorbs the laser energy, decomposes, and transfers the resulting energy to the adjacent surface of the polycarbonate disc (Fig. 1). The polycarbonate melts at these positions and, along with the resulting gas and the remainders of the decomposed dye, forms small vesicular pits. Their length varies depending on the duration of the laser impulse.
The pits and the unaffected sections between the pits are the carriers of the stored information

The laser beam, modulated by the recording signal, is focused on the groove. The beam heats and melts the recording layer of organic dye on the polycarbonate substrate, forming a series of pits. This pits are physically extremely stable, and are ideal for long-term data storage with the highest degree of reliability.


Pure Optical
Phase change is a pure optical technology that does not rely on any magnetic influence as do hard disks and magneto-optic (MO) disks. In rewritable phase change media, a short, high-intensity laser pulse turns a bit in the recording layer from its natural crystalline state (reflective) to an amorphous one (dull), which does not reflect light as well. A medium-intensity pulse restores the crystalline structure, and a low-intensity pulse reads the bit.

The recording layer in DVD+RW and DVD-RW discs is a phase change metal alloy (oftenGeSbTe) whose crystalline phase and amorphous phase, have different reflectivity. The states can be switched depending on the power of the writing laser, so data can be written, read, erased and re-written. DVD-R and DVD+R discs use an organic dye)

[wellsie7]

bcd_61 and LCSHG - WOW! Thanks for all of this useful information. While I am fairly proficient with technology in general (never had problems with the blinking numbers on the VCR, as many do), I am very uninformed about all of this DVD, DVR, HDD stuff. I truthfully never looked into it too much because my goals are pretty basic: 1) to transfer my important videos (wedding, home movies, a handful of programs I want to save) to DVD before the warned-against deterioration occurred, and 2) to record mostly regular programs so I can watch them when I want to and don't have to sit through commercials. After these lost program experiences, however, I realized I need to understand this a little better, and your posts have gone a long way towards that.

For one thing, I will use my RW discs now. I just figured I'd fill up the DVD+R or DVD-R discs, and then toss when I've viewed the programs (or keep the ones I want to keep). I will rethink this when I record programs that I would be upset to lose or not see.

I will be printing these posts out, and keeping them with the recorder paperwork.

Thanks again SO MUCH for taking the time to offer me such detailed information. I will let you know what happens with the lost programs.

[VBtoons]

Sorry, its a late reply, I just updated my units Firmware and all is good!

Go here and follow the directions.. good luck!

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Video/DVD-Recorders-Players/DVD...MR-ES30VS.D#ts