True reason VHS beat betamax according to analyst

[edDV]

Yes, there needs to be support for a standard that will last.

Optical media progress is bogged down in encryption politics.

[oldandinthe way]

Advances in magnetic media capacity and the constantly falling flash prices meet my data needs. I've become addicted to External USB drives (bought another 60gb drive for $29.99 yesterday).

From my point of view, video is the only reason for advances in optical technology and intellectual property protection is a key concern, though probably an exercise in futility.

[ozymango]

From my point of view, video is the only reason for advances in optical technology and intellectual property protection is a key concern, though probably an exercise in futility.

Quite true, and this is really the elephant in the room when it comes to Blu-Ray and HD -- because (theoretically) you have unbreakable (yeah, right) security on both of these formats (more so with Blu-Ray? Should I believe the hype?), this is a huge factor to media content producers (e.g. movie studios) looking to keep profits up, up, UP!

[SingSing]

It is so 70 to talk about VCR format. For whom that owns U-matic it will be so 60.

[edDV]

It is so 70 to talk about VCR format. For whom that owns U-matic it will be so 60.

You are referring to a person's age?

U-Matic was a 1970's format.
Betacam started in 1982.

Betamax started in 1975
VHS was launched in 1976, S-VHS was first shipped in Japan 1987.

[lordsmurf]

Apple has a technically superior product

This has not been true in 20-25 years years now. And even then, it only applied to certain usages. At best, Apple equipment is the same as Windows/Linux machines these days, and it's been that way for 10-15 years now. And that's still ignoring a large chunk of specialized equipment.

[JohnnyMalaria]

It is so 70 to talk about VCR format. For whom that owns U-matic it will be so 60.

Not really.

MiniDV, DV, DVCAM, DVCPro, HDV - all VCR formats.

Plus, the 70s really wasn't that long ago in the scheme of things.

[SingSing]

It was only Tape vs disc. Now it is tape vs disc vs flash vs miniHarddisk.

Tape is always easier to re-record, erase a portion, make a copy(even with macrvision) ... But it is NOT random access !! They are more expansive than disc because they are more than a coated disc.

Tape driven format was doing well in IT, because optical disc is only up to 8GB. With the HD and BD, this will changed.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Tape is also a *very* mature technology....

[SingSing]

My parent live in a mature adult community.

[nwo]

Video 2000 (or V2000; also known as Video Compact Cassette, or VCC) was a consumer VCR system and videotape standard developed by Philips and Grundig to compete with JVC's VHS and Sony's Betamax video technologies. Distribution of Video 2000 products began in 1979 and ended in 1988; they were marketed exclusively in Europe.

Philips originally named the videotape standard Video Compact Cassette (VCC) to complement their landmark Audio Compact Cassette format introduced in 1963. However, both names proved unpopular, and Philips chiefly marketed the system under the trademark Video 2000, while Grundig initially used the name 2x4, reflecting the maximum recording capacity of 2 x 4 hours. VCC/V2000/2x4 succeeded Philips's earlier VCR, VCR-LP and Grundig's SVR formats.

i allways loved this format so if the v2000 had porn would it have won! NO.

[lordsmurf]

Tape is also a *very* mature technology....

So is optical technology. Tape is only about 5 years older than optical. Most people are unaware of how long laser-optical tech has existed.

[ozymango]

Tape is only about 5 years older than optical. Most people are unaware of how long laser-optical tech has existed.

Yeah, but in either case what we're really talking about here is analog technologies vs. digital ones -- the transport and mechanical parts of tape and laser recording/playback of analog signals have been around a lot longer than the digitizing of said signals.

Not that recovering either analog or digital tape/optical media is as easy as recovering most of our older analog storage media (film, writing, paintings on cave walls).

[JohnnyMalaria]

Tape is also a *very* mature technology....

So is optical technology. Tape is only about 5 years older than optical. Most people are unaware of how long laser-optical tech has existed.

I find that hard to believe.

Laser-optical technology can only have existed since the invention of the laser in 1960.

Magnetic tape recording has existed since 1934.

[ozymango]

Magnetic tape recording has existed since 1934.

True, and along those lines and somewhat on topic, that reminds me of ... ...

When I was a film major at San Jose State, I did a report on the evolution of videotape technology (this was 1984 or so) and I got to go to AMPEX headquarters in Redwood City and talk to a guy there. For those of you young'uns out there, AMPEX, for all practical purposes, invented the videotape recorder, with a little help from Bing Crosby (long story, look it up!). It was for broadcast use and was the size of a truck, but very cool.

Anyway, the guy whom I talked to, whose name I've forgotten over the years, alas, had worked on the very first AMPEX videotape recorder and he'd been in WWII and was one of the guys who secretly smuggled German wire recorders (audio) out of Germany, during the war, avoiding capture and all that cool spy stuff, and these wire recorders were of major use in him and others advancing audio, and then video, tape technology.

They didn't have any lasers there so I dunno if there's a cool story in there. :P

[JohnnyMalaria]

he'd been in WWII and was one of the guys who secretly smuggled German wire recorders (audio) out of Germany

Many years ago, in my youth, I read about the history of tape recording and one of the key breakthroughs was the use of an FM bias signal to reduce distortion. Supposedly, this was discovered by accident in Nazi Germany because someone was using a recorder next to a powerful radio transmitter, resulting in an improved recording.

[Cornucopia]

Actually,

1st Analog (audio) magnetic wire recording was started by Germans in WWII.
1st Analog Audio tape was ~1947-49
1st Analog Audio LP and 45 discs were ~1956 (78's are much older, from 1888; cylinders 10years earlier)
1st Analog Video tape (2" Quad) was ~1955 (thanks Bing!)
1st general Digital Tape drives was ?? ~1958-1964 (don't you remember rooms full of those tall tape reel machines in 1960's "Dr. Strangelove"?)
1st general Digital Harddisc was ?? ~late1960's-1972 ("Winchester")
1st Digital Audio reel tape was ~1975 (Sony DASH? format)
1st Analog Video optical disc was ~1978 (Laserdisc, RCA CED "Selectavision", and VHD)
1st Digital Audio optical disc (CD) was 1981
1st general Digital Data optical disc (CDROM) was 1985
1st Digital Video tape (D1) was 1986 (although, does anyone remember "Brainstorm"-1983 w/NatalieWood? -- Optical HighDef3DVR tape drives hooked up direct to your synapses!!!)
1st Digital Video optical disc (CD-i) was 1991, (VCD) was 1993
I could go on and on (won't even go into film and other media)...

IOW, both are mature (not the way you're thinking SingSing!) technologies, with Tape *usually* leading disc (whether optical or magnetic) by up to 10 years.

....trying to get back OT...

There are a number of factors that led to VHS beating Beta (and all the other contenders at the time), and PORN is part of it, but not ALL. Neither is "max recording time", nor "closed vs. open licensing", nor "technology stealing/leapfrogging", nor "TV channel recording programmability" and other user conveniences.
I don't understand why this needs to be dredged up again. There is certainly a general consensus of the various factors involved (which may or may not be ignored by the likes of Sony, to their detriment). One I don't believe existed--that of "Sony-bashing". Sony was a revered company by most consumers and allied companies up until the mid-90's.

Scott

[SingSing]

From wikipedia :

Tape bias (also AC bias) is a high-frequency signal (generally from 40 to 150 kHz) added to the audio signal recorded on an analog tape recorder. Magnetic tape has a nonlinear response at low signal strengths (see coercivity); bias increases the signal quality of most audio recordings significantly compared to unbiased recordings by pushing the signal into the linear zone of the tape's transfer function. As the tape leaves the tape head, the bias partially demagnetizes the tape and the remaining net induction is essentially the difference between the positive and negative half-cycles of the previously recorded signal. This differencing operation further cancels some of the nonlinearity.

Early tape recorders simply applied the unadulterated input signal to the record head, resulting in mediocre recordings with poor low-frequency response. In 1940, J. von Braunmühl and Dr. W. Weber accidentally discovered that the addition of a high-frequency tone kept the recorded signal in the linear response zone, resulting in a striking quality improvement.

Different levels of bias are needed for different types of tape, so most recorders offer a bias setting switch on the front panel, or, in the case of the compact audio cassette, may switch automatically according to cutouts on the cassette shell.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm, sound like a additive CW bias, and not FM bias. The cool part is it don't need de-modulation or de-biased.

[edDV]

Here is a good VideoHelp thread blast from the past with videotape history links .

History of the VCR in USA
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=268386

[JohnnyMalaria]

Agreed.

What I meant was that some form of high frequency sinusoidal electromagnetic radiation improved things.

I didn't mean to imply FM of the audio....

...but they do sound rather German, don't they?!!

[ozymango]

I don't understand why this needs to be dredged up again.

I do! It's because 99% of everything people talk about in these forums is stuff that already has an answer somewhere, you just have to look it up (e.g. guides, wikipedia, google, whatever), so what's left is to talk about stuff that generates interest, passionate analysis/debate, etc.

And as long as it doesn't get out of control -- and between the mods and the people here at videohelp that's not a problem -- the "tangent" stuff is (to me, anyway), a great deal of fun, plus it's interesting and often educational.

[solarfox]

1st Analog Video optical disc was ~1978 (Laserdisc, RCA CED "Selectavision", and VHD)

Minor correction -- the RCA CED system was not an optical disc. It used a conductive-vinyl disc with grooves cut into it, just like a vinyl LP record, only much finer. The signal was actually read by a stylus that rode over the vinyl disc's surface, sensing minute changes in capacitance as the shape of the grooves varied underneath the stylus.

In other words, CED was just an order-of-magnitude refinement of the vinyl LP technology that RCA pioneered in the 1930s.(*) Now that's a mature technology for you!

(* Yes, records have been around longer than that, but the "modern" vinyl record as we know it only goes back to the 1930s. Before that, records were made out of other materials, such as shellac or celluloid.)

[Marvingj]

As it had done earlier with the U-matic, Sony sought to make Betamax the standard that would cut through the clutter of competing formats. Prior to introducing the Betamax to the market, it once again offered its format to Matsushita and JVC. Sony provided technical details, including an advance in azimuth recording. After lengthy discussions the three firms agreed to have a meeting where the Betamax, VHS, and VX machines would be compared.

In April 1976 this meeting occurred. The Sony people thought that the VHS system was a copy of the Betamax system. The difference was that Sony chose a smaller cassette size while JVC chose a larger cassette size with a two hour capacity. No agreements arose from the meeting.

The larger cassette allowed more tape to be used, and for any given speed of tape, this implied a greater recording time. Thus, VHS could always have an advantageous combination of picture quality and playing time. Many Consumer Reports reviews in the period found VHS picture quality superior sometimes, and Beta picture quality superior at other times. In short, neither format appeared to hold an advantage along this dimension.

After the failure for the April 1976 meeting, Sony allowed its machines to be sold under Zenith's brand name. Matsushita set up a similar arrangement with RCA, which began selling VHS machines in the summer of 1977. This machine could record for four hours.

Any improvement in one format was followed by a similar improvement in the other format. Sony recruited Toshiba and Sanyo to its format, and Matsushita brought Hitachi, Sharp, and Mitsubishi into its camp. Only the longer playing time of VHS differentiated the two products. When Beta went to two hours, VHS went to four; when Beta increased to five, VHS increased to eight.

By mid 1979, VHS out sold Beta by more than two to one in the USA. By 1984, every manufacturer except Sony had adopted VHS.

[Scooter_NJ]

Actually the VERY first video-record, ala CED was back MUCH before that. I can't recall specifics, but I do remember an article in "Video" magazine in the 80's where the earliest video disc was explained and shown.

As for Beta...I have THE major Beta decks. Too bad the PCM input can't be utilized for recording digital, HiDef video!

[robertazimmerman]

In my opinion Beta lost because it was a SONY product and Sony is a love or hate company.

Convinced their trinitron TV tube was the greatest on the earth and well worth a major price premium, they used exactly the same marketing techniques for Beta.

Well they got a share of the VCR market similar to their share of the TV market with this strategy, and lost the format war.

SONY couldn't and still can't market worth a damn.

..and you forgot one thing - their products inevitably fail prematurely.

Roberta

[JohnnyMalaria]

..and you forgot one thing - their products inevitably fail prematurely.

Roberta

I've owned many pieces of Sony consumer electronics since the early 1980s - I haven't had a single premature failure...

[ZAPPER]

I don't understand why this needs to be dredged up again.

I do! It's because 99% of everything people talk about in these forums is stuff that already has an answer somewhere, you just have to look it up (e.g. guides, wikipedia, google, whatever), so what's left is to talk about stuff that generates interest, passionate analysis/debate, etc.

And as long as it doesn't get out of control -- and between the mods and the people here at videohelp that's not a problem -- the "tangent" stuff is (to me, anyway), a great deal of fun, plus it's interesting and often educational.

Good reply. It helps to justify the debate/conversation, not that any really need to be justified and almost all are for entertainment and mental exercise.


Ah, drifting back in my memories, I always tend to remember that beta just never had the following of the masses, and even if would have, "time", is what killed it. Even the name "Beta" seemed kind of hokey. With time there came technological advances, wether or not these advances were quality improvements or not is unimportant, but the changes with time and advances put VHS out front, and being in front, even for just a second, gives greater momentum to any product and the snowball effect.

My idea of the perfect media? A credit card sized/shaped and just as rugged, flash type device.

Given time, todays media and tomorrows media will become obsolete and the media after that will too fall to the wayside. Ain't tecnology great!

[edDV]

I have a micro story about the VHS-Betamax lost battle.

In the early 80's it was obvious to all in the USA that VHS had won but the defeat was not well known in Japan. I was assigned to manage a joint relationship with Sony at medium-high levels (re: Morizono san). Many Sony people came here and I was the main project manager to go there.

While visiting Atsugi, I was assigned a young manager to help me with language and organization navigation. It was his job to meet me for breakfast and get me where I needed to be that day.

After a few days I asked him about his career intentions inside Sony. It was assumed young managers would be rotated around until their 40's before they would be given a real management job. This young 30's manager (a bit older than me at the time) was being pressured to choose a home division. He said he intended to work in the Betamax Division.

I was curious. Why Betamax? So I asked him about the recently announced decision for the Sony tape plant in Dothan Alabama to start manufacturing VHS tape under the Sony name? He was shocked. He told me this couldn't be true.

Bottom line, he was never told until I raised the issue.

[ozymango]

..and you forgot one thing - their products inevitably fail prematurely.

I'm sure there are many out there who have Sony products who will disagree with that statement, as their real-world experiences will testify to the longevity of the Sony products they've purchased.

That disclaimer aside, I currently own only one Sony product that still works. That is, I've bought Sony amps, walkmans, VCRs, a TV, a couple of CD players -- and every one of them has gone south on me. To be fair, I love Sony Beta VCRs and have wept whenever one of my decks had died, and I've had nine Sony Beta decks. When my final (tenth) deck goes, I'm pretty much gonna have to give up on Beta as I just don't have enough stuff left in Beta to worry about. That is, I've transferred my precious stuff to other formats, so my Beta deck is just for occasional use. I'll definitely miss it when it dies.

I've had two Sony CD players, my sister has one, and of the two that still work , both skip like crazy until they've been playing for ten minutes or so, then they settle down.

I had a Sony amp that lasted a week. I just returned it, and as luck would have it, my friend had an old amp (Fisher) that he had no use for and he gave it to me. It was ten years old at the time, and I've had it for fifteen years. Still going strong.

I ain't saying my experiences are typical, but frankly I just don't trust Sony stuff anymore.

EDIT: I'm guessing that current manufacturing "standards" has a lot to do with the mechanical longevity of most electronics (consumer level) stuff nowadays, so I don't wanna pick on Sony as being the worst offender -- I'm pretty sure almost everything out there is crap. Not like the old days, when a VCR actually had a chassis ... do we have a smiley for a grumpy old man?

[edDV]

I've had and still have lots of Sony stuff from consumer, prosumer and pro lines.

At the consumer end they used to be long lasting. More recently, they are average. The one thing unique to Sony is the amount they charge to fix anything. In the early 90's they started this flat fee schedule. It is so expensive you have to assume they are telling you to buy a new one instead.

At the pro end they need to compete for service $$$ and they do have competitive pricing.