.sup and .sub files for subtitles, where is the problem ?

[gabier]

Hello,

I start handling DVB-T streams with subtitles. I demuxed such a stream with projectX and got for the subtitles a *.sup file and a *.sup.IFO file. I could open these subtitles with DVDSubedit, thus the files are OK.

But my brand new DVDLab does not know .sup files, it knows only .sub and other formats.

I did not expect this issue. What is it all about ?

Gab

[Baldrick]

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=318028

And go to dvd-lab forums and request support for it and they might add it in future release, http://www.mmbforums.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=95732&sid=45f42367ee5b9a06068e982adf41584e ....or author with something else like muxman.

[manusse]

Hi Gabier,

Sup files are binary subtitles (bitmap). They can be used to add a substream to a DVD using muxman for example.

A simple google search ("dvdlab .sup") gives a link with an answer in this same forum:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/t318028.html

Cheers
Manusse

[Edit] Sorry for giving the same answer as BaldRick, 2 minutes after him...

[gabier]

Sorry for posting too fast, I just found out that you can choose your subpic format in projectX demux.

Yet, any advice on what is the best ? The formats possible as output of ProjectX and accepted as input by DVDLab are SUB, SRT, SSA, SON

Gab

[Edit] Also, I appreciated .sup files because I could open them with DVDSubEdit to find out their content and sort the different languages. Do you know any free editor of subtitles for other formats ?

[gabier]

Too good to be true !!!

I must miss something in ProjectX, because if I choose .SUB or .SRT in the dropdown list of "Export formats" in the "Subtitles" tab of the "presettings", it outputs .SUP files again and again. Is it deaf or am I dumb ?

Gab

[borax]

If the subs in your DVB-T streams are binary (images), projectx will save them as binary. Only text based (like from 'teletext') subtitles can be saved in a text based format as srt, sub...
The only way to get text based subtitels from a binary image format is by OCR with DVDSubEdit or subrip.

[gabier]

Thank you Borax, this is quite clear. I will try to use DVDsubedit or subrip.

Gab

[gabier]

Hello,

Bad news

DVDSubEdit seems to be able to process my .SUP file by its OCR menu. It opens it, then starts to process, and after about one minute (the processing of my file is done about at 2/3) it crashes without any notice nor output that I coud find.

SubRip : I could not find the way to open my .SUP file nor any help on this topic.

Gab

[Edit] More results but no better news . Finally I found somewhere the way to feed .SUP files into SubRip. It seems one has to use DVDSupDecoder, which is a command line in DOS Window . It decodes the .Sup file and outputs a text list of all subtitles and position and one bmp file for each subtitle (988 files in my test). SubRip is happy with this, but it is unable to OCR any subtitle. It stopped at the first one, showing the subtitle image and asking to enter manually the text or to tune color or OCR parameters. I went on until the 10th subtitle then I gave up !
It seems it is not a very practical way of solving my problem

[manono]

It seems it is not a very practical way of solving my problem

Because you're not going about it the right way.

However, didn't you say that DVDLab Pro accepts SON subtitle input? Once you get the BMPs from the SUP file when using SubRip, just save them in SON format. That will save you from having to OCR.

[gabier]

Thank you manono, maybe a way out of that mess

What is .SON format ? And how do I save my 988 bmp files as .SON ? SubRip opens one file, then the following one, and so on...

Gabier

[manono]

Hi-

Open SubRip. Open The IFO for the part from which you want the subs. When the Vobs show up, make sure the ones you want are checked. In my example, I'm getting the menu subs:

Then hit that little blue box to which the arrow is pointing to set the subtitle format, and:

Choose SON and Convert To This Format. Then, Start, give them a name, and after the BMPs are created, File->Save As (at the bottom). When completed, you'll have a bunch of BMPs, and 2 text files which, with any luck, your authoring program should accept. I don't use DVDLab, so don't ask me anything about it, please.

[gabier]

Open The IFO for the part from which you want the subs. .

Thank you for helping, manono, but I fear there is a misunderstanding.

I have no IFO file yet, I have individual mpeg streams (video *.m2v, audios *.mp2, and subtitles *.sup (and also an *.sup.IFO only for the subpicture video).
So I have no way to open the dialog box you show.

Anyway what is a subtitle recorded in *.SON format ? You mention the bunch of BMPs. I have them, and also a text list of schedules for each subtitle (I obtained all this by decoding the sup file with DVDSupDecoder). Maybe not much is missing ?

Gab

[manono]

My fault then. I knew from the beginning that this was a capture and not from a DVD. And then I promptly forgot it.

Here's what a SON file looks like:

son.rar

If your BMPs are listed in that same format, you might be able to get away with just changing the information at the top and then renaming it as SON. And I don't think you really even need the .spf file, but I guess it doesn't hurt to have it. Otherwise I don't know if there's any option for you except to OCR to a text based format, such as SRT or SSA. Either that or author using a program that accepts SUP files, such as Muxman, as borax mentioned earlier.

[manono]

I forgot. If I were going to OCR them, I'd open Subtitle Creater, go Tools->Manipulate SUP or VOBSUB, and in the new screen, also open your IFO. Then Save SUB, and in the drop-down box, save to IDX/SUB instead. If you get a good IDX/SUB out of it, then open the IDX in Sub Resynch (comes included with VobSub) and OCR to SRT or SSA or whatever.

[gabier]

I have no possibility to Save as SUB, it only wants to save as SUP. Normal, it has not yet been OCR'd.
Gab

[manono]

Hi-

Normal, it has not yet been OCR'd.

IDX/SUB format subs aren't OCR'd. They are image or picture or BMP based as are SUP, SST, or SON subtitle files. They're the same as on the DVD.

So, no drop-down box offering to save as IDX/SUB? Why not? It didn't open your IFO to get the times for all the BMPs? I mean, I've done this probably a dozen times. Admittedly I've done it from DVDs, and not from captures.

There are other ways to do this. Mux everything using Muxman. That will give you a DVD with subs (test it when done), and if you need a menu, then TDA accepts Vob input and can create a menu for you. I believe that DVDAUthorGUI also accepts SUP input, and can be used to author, as well as to make a nice menu.

Another way, although a bit complex, is to go ahead and make the Muxman DVD. Then go into DVDLab and make your DVD with menu, but without subs. Then when all done, you'll have your nice DVD with everything except the subtitles. Then open that DVD in VobBlanker and replace the video without subs with the one you made in Muxman with subs. Process, and when done you'll have a DVD with the menu you made (but no subs menu), and video with subs. The last step will be to then "turn on" the subs by opening your final DVD in PGCEdit, double-clicking the video, "Set"ing the subtitles, and making them permanent by opening the green reel of film in the top row of icons to add in the new subtitles, and finally saving and testing.

[manusse]

@gabier,

Only the last version of SubtitleCreator allows you to save your subtitles to SUB/IDX.
You're probably using an older version.
Update your version of SubtitleCreator (to 2.1b5) and try again.

Manusse

[gabier]

Only the last version of SubtitleCreator allows you to save your subtitles to SUB/IDX.
You're probably using an older version.
Update your version of SubtitleCreator (to 2.1b5) and try again.

If I were going to OCR them, I'd open Subtitle Creater, go Tools->Manipulate SUP or VOBSUB, and in the new screen, also open your IFO. Then Save SUB, and in the drop-down box, save to IDX/SUB instead. If you get a good IDX/SUB out of it, then open the IDX in Sub Resynch (comes included with VobSub) and OCR to SRT or SSA or whatever

I downloaded the beta 2.1 of Subtitles Creator and I could save my sup/IFO file as a SUB/IDX. Then I downloaded VOBSub to "Sub Resynch" them to SUB, but to achieve this, Sub Resynch has to OCR the subtitles. And again it seems impossible. From the first subtitle onward, I have to enter the texte manually because the images are of rather poor quality. There are more then 1000 subtitles in a movie...
Even if that movie has especially bad subtitles, it does not seem the best way to try to OCR my bitmap subtitles because DVDLab inputs only text based ones. I have the trial version, so I won't buy it, that's all.

Another way, although a bit complex, is to go ahead and make the Muxman DVD. Then...

The method is interesting, but too complex if I do that often, and anyway at the end I have no subtitles menu.

I believe that DVDAUthorGUI also accepts SUP input, and can be used to author, as well as to make a nice menu.

I am trying to use DVDAUthorGUI at the moment. It accepts SUP subtitles. I have not yet seen subtitles with my player, but I hope it will happen soon.

Thanks to everybody, you helped me indeed to sort out this issue.

Gabier

[manusse]

As you can now convert your subtitles to sub/idx, you can use SubRip to OCR them. You have to enter each letter once and after a while SubRip recognises all the letters itself.
Cheers
Manusse

[gabier]

As you can now convert your subtitles to sub/idx, you can use SubRip to OCR them. You have to enter each letter once and after a while SubRip recognises all the letters itself.

The problem is more complicated because Subrip cannot read whole subtitles images because the letters are to near each other. It asks me to enter the whole subpicture. And even if there is exactly the same subtitle it does not recognize it because images are never exactly the same.
OCR is a very difficult technology, that's why one had better avoid it

Gabier

[manono]

I'll try again. If you have an IDX now, then you have timestamps. If you have a SUB file, then you have BMPs. So, open the IDX in SubResynch (from the VobSub package). Then Save As SON. No OCR. Use the SON file in DVDLab.

[gabier]

I'll try again. If you have an IDX now, then you have timestamps. If you have a SUB file, then you have BMPs. So, open the IDX in SubResynch (from the VobSub package). Then Save As SON. No OCR. Use the SON file in DVDLab.

Hi, Manono,
I admire how patient you are! And it works ! Indeed I have been all mixed up with all these subtitles formats, and I am still not sure of what is text and what is bitmap...
You are right, .SON is bitmap with a text time list, as idx. I applied your solution, and DVDLab imported it without any problem.
I compiled the DVD with these subtitles, and they are there. They are mainly tranparent, which is detrimental to readability. I do not know yet if this is because of a wrong parameter in DVDLab or because of the wrong processing of the subtitles somewhere... .
I go on with my tests, but it looks promising.!
And now I must again think of DVDLab

Gabier

[nerdgeek]

Hi-

Open SubRip. Open The IFO for the part from which you want the subs. When the Vobs show up, make sure the ones you want are checked. Then hit that little blue box to which the arrow is pointing to set the subtitle format, and ......
Choose SON and Convert To This Format. Then, Start, give them a name, and after the BMPs are created, File->Save As (at the bottom). When completed, you'll have a bunch of BMPs, and 2 text files which, with any luck, your authoring program should accept. I don't use DVDLab, so don't ask me anything about it, please.

Thank you manono for a wonderful clear guide which worked for me & produced exactly what you said it would.

But DVD-Lab Pro imports the .son & can't see the entries - nothing shows - no list of bitmaps - zilch to generate a .sp with.

Not asking about DLP but whether there might be something odd in the .son file, these are Japanese subs from an R2 NTSC DVD9:

**********son
<snip>
st_format 2
Display_Start non_forced
TV_Type NTSC
Tape_Type DROP
Pixel_Area (0 479)
Directory F:\1.DVD,work\hold\subrip

#
# Palette entries:
#
# 00 : RGB( 0, 0, 0)
# 01 : RGB(255,255,255)
# 02 : RGB(173,173,173)
# 03 : RGB(119,119,119)
# 04 : RGB(196, 87, 24)
# 05 : RGB( 95,224,163)
# 06 : RGB(116, 87,255)
# 07 : RGB( 12,103,255)
# 08 : RGB(255,255, 82)
# 09 : RGB(232,117,175)
# 10 : RGB(255,108,255)
# 11 : RGB(255, 69,255)
# 12 : RGB(146,190,255)
# 13 : RGB(255,188,157)
# 14 : RGB(255,148,255)
# 15 : RGB(255,255,138)
#

SP_NUMBER START END FILE_NAME
Color (0 0 0 0)
Contrast (0 0 0 0)
Display_Area (000 002 719 479)
0001 00:00:00:07 00:00:00:17 **********00001.bmp
Display_Area (000 002 719 479)
0002 00:00:37:12 00:00:37:22 **********00002.bmp
Color (0 1 2 0)
Contrast (0 15 15 15)
Display_Area (168 368 551 429)
0003 00:01:07:12 00:01:11:25 **********00003.bmp
Display_Area (224 368 487 431)
0004 00:01:12:03 00:01:16:24 **********00004.bmp
Display_Area (192 390 527 439)
0005 00:01:17:03 00:01:19:16 **********00005.bmp
Display_Area (176 368 551 429)
0006 00:01:19:26 00:01:23:23 **********00006.bmp
</snip>

.bmp names have been replaced - but the .bmp are viewable in the usual ways.

SubRip did warn that it had to write UNICODE as non-ANSI chars were present ....
Tried searching for the .son spec but ... duh.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Nico M 8)

[manono]

Hi-

Like I said earlier, I don't use DVDLab, and have no idea what it wants in the SON files. I might suggest a couple of things, though, and that's if you made them for 8-bit, that you go back and make them for 4-bit this time.

Also, are these for a PAL DVD? Shouldn't they be 720x574?

[nerdgeek]

Hi-

Like I said earlier, I don't use DVDLab, and have no idea what it wants in the SON files. I might suggest a couple of things, though, and that's if you made them for 8-bit, that you go back and make them for 4-bit this time.

Also, are these for a PAL DVD? Shouldn't they be 720x574?

Thank you, apologies - expect you work with Scenarist, wish I did

No - this is from an R2 NTSC (Japan) DVD9.

I am using the original streams so NTSC output also , this is a project making a reference DVD from R1 & R2 NTSC DVD9s and combining their audio & subtitle assets.

I did use 4-bit but will run SubRip again just in case.

Baffled & many thanks for responding.

Nico M 8)

[manono]

Nah, I don't use Scenearist either. I just use the original DVD menus. If I have to make my own, I use DVDAuthorGUI.

this is a project making a reference DVD from R1 & R2 NTSC DVD9s and combining their audio & subtitle assets.

So you can't use the original menus? You have to create new ones? If you can use the original menus, then you don't have to work with SON files (or DVDLab Pro) at all. You can easily convert the SON files to SUP files, and then use the SUP files when reauthoring using Muxman, before then replacing your "new" DVD back into the original one using the "Replace" button of VobBlanker. I can supply more details if needed.

And I'm pretty sure your subs should be NON-DROP (Tape_Type NON_DROP). If the assets are all for 23.976fps (or 29.97fps) then you sure as heck aren't setting the Drop-Frame flag. I don't know if that's the reason they're not being accepted by DVDLab though.

[nerdgeek]

......
And I'm pretty sure your subs should be NON-DROP (Tape_Type NON_DROP). If the assets are all for 23.976fps (or 29.97fps) then you sure as heck aren't setting the Drop-Frame flag. I don't know if that's the reason they're not being accepted by DVDLab though.

Changed to NON_DROP - no apparent effect ..... hmmm ...
I'd also post in the DLP forums if their forum registration worked ...
I'll start a new thread here about DLP & .son problems & see what transpires.

Many Thanks,
Nico M 8)

[nerdgeek]

Finally got this to work ...

Tried importing your son.rar & that was fine, heh heh.
Started copying & pasting and ended up pasting everything after the SP_NUMBER START END FILE_NAME line - also copied over the palette entries.

Works now. No idea why. Hidden character somewhere?

Thanks for that son.rar manono!

Nico M 8)

[nerdgeek]

OK - heh, heh .... why make it simple when it can be so beautifully complicated.

My Japanese subtitle stream (from the .son + .bmp) works OK with DLP but instead of a transparent background as per the original .sup ..... has an opaque solid black background.

Her's one of the .bmp - they're all exactly like this:



Since the .son includes palette & color info & commands - is there any way to modify the .son so that a transparent background surrounds the font.

Or using SubRip differently? Or batch .bmp manipulation? Or?

Nico M 8)

[manono]

Just wait until you're done and fix it (make it transparent again) using DVDSubEdit. Section 2.2 of the guide here is what you want:

http://download.videohelp.com/DVDSubEdit/UserManual/helpfile.htm

And it's probably "b" that is opaque and you want to make transparent again. And don't forget after using the slider to make it transparent to first go Edit->Apply Last Modifications To All, before then going File->Save All Modifications.

Almost done.