Mainconcept Mpeg Encoder: Best settings vs. Quality

[jochenz]

Ia m currently testing capturing DV directly into Mpeg2-DVD format using Mainconcept Mpeg Encoder 1.42.

I have tested a lot:

Bitrate: 4, 6 and 8 MB/sec
Video Encoder quaility: 21, 35, 40 and 50.
Deinterlacing: Enabled and disabled.

The absolute best quality is using 8 MB/sec and settings the Video encoder quality setting to 50 (max).

But do any of you have experience and give me advise what would be acceptable, getting a reasonable amount of material on tape and still keeping good quality?

I am shooting my stuff using a Sony DC-TRV345E (Digital 8) camcorder.

Hope you can help me!

[turk690]

What ultimately is acceptable quality is largely up to you. A better question would be: how close is the output MPEG file quality to the original uncompressed (or other format) file? There are a few givens in the MPEG encoder world, however, that you should note. 1st, most software MPEG encoders will produce output hard to distinguish from the input, quality-wise, when bitrates are high enough (generally >8Mb/s). So what you noted with the MainConcept is not unusual. An area that will distinguish one from the other is what the output quality is like when increasingly lower bitrates are used. Most s/w encoders will start to produce wretched quality below 3Mb/s. Another area of competition is encoding times. In general, the faster (and lesser passes) it is the worse the output quality gets. There is whole world of MPEG encoders out there, h/w & s/w, ranging in price from free to $50,000, with the same variability in quality. When you are watching a high-quality DVB program with full-D1 resolution (720X576) at some high bitrate <5Mb/s being broadcast live the feed is most likely being encoded realtime with some $25,000 hardware encoder. This shows high quality realtime MPEG encoding is NOT impossible. But to expect the same quality from a $300 domestic DVD recorder (or a $50 software MPEG encoder) is pushing your luck. This is why no matter how good the intentions are, the sexy idea of recording directly on a DVD just doesn't fly. Elsewhere on this forum is an entry of a moderator detailing the shortcomings big and small of specific DVD recorder brands & models. MPEG was, in the long term, never meant to be a an editing or acquisition medium. It is an archiving and transmission medium, and its real graces show offline. To get a scale of the variabilites you can go to the Cinemacraft encoder site where there are encoders on the $50 scale on one hand, and $20,000 on the other.

[jochenz]

Turk690,

thank you for the very extensive answer and some explenation. But what I was looking for is some answers from people that have used mainconcept mpeg encoder and what they find "acceptable" using which settings.

[jochenz]

I have done some testing tonight again.

Daylight recordings and evening-low-light-close-ups....

I have for now settled for
Video bitrate: 6500 kbps (~90minutes on DVD4,7GB)
Video encoder quality: 34 (higher setting will cause buffering on my system).

Hope to hear some other settings and opinions...

[edDV]

Turk690, That was a brilliant summary!
The only suggestion is a few paragraph breaks Great work!

I'll try to add to your analysis.

Ia m currently testing capturing DV directly into Mpeg2-DVD format using Mainconcept Mpeg Encoder 1.42.

I have tested a lot:

Bitrate: 4, 6 and 8 MB/sec
Video Encoder quaility: 21, 35, 40 and 50.
Deinterlacing: Enabled and disabled.

The absolute best quality is using 8 MB/sec and settings the Video encoder quality setting to 50 (max).

But do any of you have experience and give me advise what would be acceptable, getting a reasonable amount of material on tape and still keeping good quality?

I am shooting my stuff using a Sony DC-TRV345E (Digital 8) camcorder.

Hope you can help me!

Last things first. The Sony DC-TRV345E camcorder limits the quality you can get. It is a lower end single CCD consumer camcorder. Even if you use a top end MPeg2 encoder, the result will never exceed the DV out from that camcorder. The noise it generates will give MPeg encoders fits. Noise can be conquered mostly with light and lots of it.

DV format camcorders range from what you have to the Panasonic Varicam AJ-HDC27H @ $70K. The difference is in the camera section. DV format recording is high quality even at the low end. The video you see on TV will be using at least a 3 CCD Sony VX-2100 @ $2K. Adjust your expectations.

Second, your DV cam shoots interlace video and any attempt at deinterlace will degrade the video. Keep it interlaced.

Third, MPeg encoders depend on smooth motion and motion repetition over frames. If you are hand holding your camcorder, then you are adding constant X-Y and rotational motion to the pixels in the frame. Mpeg encoders look for motion repetition through frames. Failing to find any, they just compress in the frame with severe quality loss. The idea is to give the encoder smooth motion to work it's motion compression charms and that means tripods, skilled camera operators or SteadyCam technology.

Forth, encoder settings. Hand held interlace camcorders need the most bitrate that you ca give them. Keep it at the higher bitrates for handheld. Tripod and TV captures can work with less bitrate. Experiment.


In addition, TV and DVD material will always compress easier. Why?

for one they were prefessionally shot with smooth motion and optimal lighting (aka exposure).

then they were processed to remove all noise and non-essential motion. The idea is to prep each frame for the needs of the MPeg encoder. This is done frame by frame for action sequences to control bitrate.

[jochenz]

Oke, thank you very much. This is all wonderful information, but I am looking for some opinions of people that are currently using the mainconcept mpeg encoder.

I could not see any big differences between DV and the settings I used in my previous post.

8,0 MB/s gives a little better result, But is is not worth the extra space it uses in the end result to my opinion.

Thanks again, for the info, but I am hoping for some posts from fellow-mainconcept-users...

[thecoalman]

No offense and not to beat a dead horse but it goes back to what both Turk and Ed posted... Eye of the beholder and whatever works with your model. Just as an example I have a prosumer cam and even a single encode to MPEG introduces some slight macroblocking.... So for me since I prefer the best video I can get, acceptable is two pass encoding at 8000kbps . *** This is of course after capturing as DV-AVI. I Don't have "the" mainconcept encoder but I use Ulead Media Studio which utilzes a version of Mainconcepts encoder.

[jochenz]

2 edDV:

If I capture Interlaced, then In the end result, I have horizontal lines during fast moving events or part of the screen.

I did some reading and then decided to do some tests.

My conslusion was that the quality was the best using "deinterlacing" during capturing. Maybe I am doing something else wrong, but leaving it "interlaced" just gives these horizontal lines in the final result.

please advise

[jochenz]

Here are some screen captures. I am filming my girl and our two dogz.

The dogz move around but I try to keep the camera steady.

INTERLACED = 6500_IL_34
DEINTERLACED = 6500_DI_34

This is why I decided just to capture the whole thing in using "Deinterlacing".

[thecoalman]

If I capture Interlaced, then In the end result, I have horizontal lines during fast moving events or part of the screen.

Yes and that is the way it's supposed to look, when you deinterlace basically you have thrown away half the resolution or detail. You won't see anything but very smooth video when played back on TV. For computer playback get a good player like PowerDVD that deinterlaces on the fly.

[jochenz]

If I capture Interlaced, then In the end result, I have horizontal lines during fast moving events or part of the screen.

Yes and that is the way it's supposed to look, when you deinterlace basically you have thrown away half the resolution or detail. You won't see anything but very smooth video when played back on TV. For computer playback get a good player like PowerDVD that deinterlaces on the fly.

Okay, 2nite i captured (interlaced) another piece of movie with motion in it, but with a steady camera shot. I play the mpeg file on the TV (Philips TV with PixelPlus technology) using my XBOX. And the result on TV is lines-lines-lines-and-some-more-lines.

What I am doing wrong?

[gadgetguy]

The video that is on the tape is interlaced. Connect the Camcorder directly to the TV and watch it from the tape. You should not see the interlace lines. I don't know anything about the X-Box or your TV, but if you see the interlace lines while playing the video from tape then I can only conclude that your TV is a progressive display and it will always display the interlace lines.

If you don't see the interlace lines then you'll need to detail everything about your settings. I don't have personal experience with MCC, but I know it's a well regarded encoder so the proper settings should garner results nearly identical to watching the tape directly.

[edDV]

This gets very complex. Some shortcut answers which we can address as deep as you want.

Conclusion 1: Keep interlaced video interlaced if the target display is a normal TV or an HDTV. Always keep home recording archive as interlace for future processing. The idea is deinterlace will be done better in the display.

--Exception One: Film based material that can be IVTC (inverse telecined). Still a good progressive DVD player or HDTV will do this for you from an interlace input.

--Exception Two: If the video will be mostly displayed on computers and deep compression is the main goal (e.g. Divx, Xvid, wmv).

Conclusion 2: Use minimal filtering on your archive copy. Future processors will do a better job. Create periodic "distribution masters" for then current use. Filter that all you want. The archive is always there to start over.

The Mainconcept encoder as sold standalone is included in many products with various features enabled. The one that Mainconcept sells is mostly replicated in upper range editors like Premiere Pro, Media Studio and Vegas. Exceptions do exist if you compare capture and HDTV/HDV details.

Lower end Adobe, ULead and Sony (plus many others) products enable features off the Chinese menu offered in the Mainconcept MPeg software developer kit, with royalties variable by menu items selected.

http://www.mainconcept.com/site/index.php?id=111
http://www.mainconcept.com/site/index.php?id=6

[edDV]

Encoder performance is heavily influenced by the camera source and the filming technique used.

For an "as broadcast" test I like to use the 720x480 SD output of a HD cable turner. I find a guest introduction on the Leno show offers a good simple encoder test. The sequence is usually:

Leno introduces the Guest and spins in his chair. A hand held HD camera captures the guest walking from behind the set with a single spotlight. This is the closest senario to hand held home rercording except they use a $30K camera and a bright spot. But the guest is waving and otherwise walking fast. The camera is zooming, panning and rotating. All in all a good test. Hard to show here. This was captured DV format and then encoded at various bitrates. On a CRT TV monitor, the interlace lines aren't shown so evaluation is easier. Bottom line, an expensive camera operated by a pro with adequate light can be compressed pretty tight in MPeg2.

In last night's show, Paula Abdul was a perfect walking test pattern for MPeg encoder evaluation. The criss cross black over white with white and dark textures plus broad dancer's gestures was pure gold. I'm going to try for an HD MPeg2_TS capture when this show is repeated.

For this quick test I used ULead VS9's Mainconcept encoder set to VBR 4000, 3000, 2000 and 1775 Kb/s.



When Paula reached the sofa, the very solid pedistal mounted HD cam was used with only occasional pan and zoom. Lighting is also perfect there. Those earrings make a good motion test. So experiment with low bitrates to force errors. Then add bitrate until acceptable.

[jochenz]

okay, thanks guys...thanks a lot....

somethimes the best-tests are the simplest. I will connect my camcorder to my TV 2nite and see what quality is played back and if interlacing is happening!

Hopefully this clears things up for me! thanks again...I'll keep in touch!!!

[edDV]

okay, thanks guys...thanks a lot....

somethimes the best-tests are the simplest. I will connect my camcorder to my TV 2nite and see what quality is played back and if interlacing is happening!

Hopefully this clears things up for me! thanks again...I'll keep in touch!!!

If you encode "bottom field first", 25fps you should not be seeing line splits during motion on a PAL TV. If you encode progressive, you will see artifacts like double images on a PAL TV.

A progressive TV will have internal deinterlacing modes.

[jochenz]

and indeed..playing the DV tape straight to the TV, the picture looks wunderfulll...

So I am going to make anther recordeing. Put it on DVD and play it on my DVD player.

I'll keep in touch...thanks, so far

[jochenz]

I have captured all my video again and I am now using Ulead Video Studio. I use
Ulead Video Studio, because it should be able to "smart render". In de DVD Authoring options, you can chose to "Do not convert MPEG compliant files".

I have captured using these settings:

PAL (25 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Frame-based
(DVD-PAL),  4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max.  6500 kbps) 
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

I have set Ulead to exactly the same settings. But when I try to burn the DVD-image, Ulead "again" renders the whole movie....This ofcourse results in quality loss...

please advise

[thecoalman]

Not positive but matching the project settings to the video should fix that. DVD workshop won't convert regardless because it will do multi VTS, VS won't convert providing it matches the project settings... I don't have VS so I can't really give you specifics ...

[jochenz]

I found out, using Media player Classic, that the bitrate of my capture was average 6500kbps, but had a max of 8450 kbps.

I changed this in the project settings. But still VS want to re-render the material when I try to finish the DVD.

What is going wrong?

[jochenz]

I noticed just now, this in the settings,

Frame type: frame based

isnt that strange. I was hoping, changing this in the proejct settings to lower field first. like in my capture settings from Mainconcept Encoder would help smart rendering the proejct. But no such luck!

Again It starts rendering straight away....

why.....!!!!!

[jochenz]

I got tired of Ulead! For some unclear reason it keeps re-encoding the clips, that are already MPEG-2 compliant!

I did some research on the website to find the DVD author software that would fit me.

I found TMPG DVD Author. It kicks ass! I edits very easy, has a clear WYSIWYG interface and is exactly what I was looking for.

I leaves my captures clips as they are, so the end result is just as I captured it using MC.

If something changes in my setup. I will inform every one. So far I choose:

Mainconcept MPEG Encoder 1.42
Video bitrate: viariable 6500 kbps (~90minutes on DVD4,7GB)
Video encoder quality: 50 (maximum setting)

DVD Authoring using TMPG DVD Author 2.0.

[edDV]

With Video Studio I can set a DVD MPeg2 project format (e.g. 6000Kb/s VBR) and real time encode a DV stream to DVD Ready MPeg2 (using project settings or a different preset). Or I can import existing DV or MPeg2 files and encode non-realtime.

When editing mixed DV and MPeg2 within a MPeg2 project setting, "smart rendering" seems to work for me so long as the MPeg2 matches project settings. I judge it is working when I get shorter render times.

Sometimes I use VS9 as a simple DVD Authoring program (starting with "Share" "Create Disc"). I "Add Video" (usually DVD compliant MPeg2 or MPeg1). All DVD compliant video seems to process without re-render much like in TMPEnc DVD Author. Offen the audio needs to be converted (e.g. 44KHz or PCM source to AC-3). Audio re-renders quickly.

The key settings are under the gear icon at the low end of the Create Disc Window.
Once you get the settings correct, I think you can get control of your re-rendering problems.

[jochenz]

With Video Studio I can set a DVD MPeg2 project format (e.g. 6000Kb/s VBR) and real time encode a DV stream to DVD Ready MPeg2 (using project settings or a different preset). Or I can import existing DV or MPeg2 files and encode non-realtime.

When editing mixed DV and MPeg2 within a MPeg2 project setting, "smart rendering" seems to work for me so long as the MPeg2 matches project settings. I judge it is working when I get shorter render times.

Sometimes I use VS9 as a simple DVD Authoring program (starting with "Share" "Create Disc"). I "Add Video" (usually DVD compliant MPeg2 or MPeg1). All DVD compliant video seems to process without re-render much like in TMPEnc DVD Author. Offen the audio needs to be converted (e.g. 44KHz or PCM source to AC-3). Audio re-renders quickly.

The key settings are under the gear icon at the low end of the Create Disc Window.
Once you get the settings correct, I think you can get control of your re-rendering problems.

. . .

Well...I have set exactly the same setting, but with me it re-renders the files.
The difference with me, is that I add the files in the beginning. I add titles and transitions and then "Create Disc".

Doesn't matter anyway. I have for now settled with my setup from above and the results are wunderfull.

Mainconccept lets me capture my DV in realtime and TMPG DVD Autohr gives me nice menu's in only minutes!

[lordsmurf]

You must remember the bitrate allocation (bits per pixel; in other words: what resolution is being used?) when discussing what does and does not look decent at certain values.

For example, you cannot say "anything below 4000k looks bad" without qualifying it with "at 720x480 resolution". Because at 352x480, which is very good, a 4000k allocation would be outstanding quality.