Does 720i exist?

[yoda313]

So I was wondering something we have the following resolutions for regular and hd tv:

480i (standard analog)
480p (progressive dvd and edtv)
720p (1st level hd)
1080i (2nd level hd)
1080p (3rd level - highest hd for bluray/hddvd/videogames)

Is there such a thing as 720i?? Is there an interlace option for the 720 resolution level?????

I don't know if its possilbe. This is purely theoritical for me since I don't have a hdtv. I'm just curious as to why it doesn't come around.

[edDV]

So I was wondering something we have the following resolutions for regular and hd tv:

480i (standard analog)
480p (progressive dvd and edtv)
720p (1st level hd)
1080i (2nd level hd)
1080p (3rd level - highest hd for bluray/hddvd/videogames)

Is there such a thing as 720i?? Is there an interlace option for the 720 resolution level?????

I don't know if its possilbe. This is purely theoritical for me since I don't have a hdtv. I'm just curious as to why it doesn't come around.

Overall for new formats, progressive is more desirable than interlace if sufficient transmission or storage bandwidth is available.

Not sure of the rules in "Sector 1" but since you reference 480 and not 576, we will assume your planet is inflenced by NTSC.

Yes possible but not used. The ASTC settled on 19Mb/s 8-VSB Mpeg2 encoding. This was enough for progressive at 1280x768 59.94 fps but not for 1920x1080. Therefore 1280x768i was not supported because the implied trend is to progressive.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB

You can encode to 720i, but nobody else will be able to play it.

[yoda313]

You can encode to 720i, but nobody else will be able to play it.

Now do you mean you can use it on a computer but hd sets won't be able to play back 720i? Wouldn't it convert it to another usable reolution????

[edDV]

"1080p (3rd level - highest hd for bluray/hddvd/videogames)"

PS: videogames are a long way from true 1080p unless a very very slow game. "Snail Wars" maybe?

Make that "Snail Wars" (R). I like my idea.
All (c) copyright implied.

[yoda313]

"1080p (3rd level - highest hd for bluray/hddvd/videogames)"

PS: videogames are a long way from true 1080p unless a very very slow game. "Snail Wars" maybe?

Make that "Snail Wars" (R). I like my idea.
All (c) copyright implied.

So playstation 3 and 360 claims of true 1080p output are exaggerated???

[edDV]

720i has been skipped for simplification. 720p is an intermediate step to 1080p.

720p/59.94fps and 1080i/29.97fps use similar bandwidth/bitrate.

[edDV]

Make that "Snail Wars" (R). I like my idea.

All (c) copyright implied.

So playstation 3 and 360 claims of true 1080p output are exaggerated???

Yes at the rendering level. What they do is use smaller fast renders, then use upscaling display card chips to interpolate to higher resolutions. This used to be called "full screen" mode.

BTW: Xbox360 only claims 1280x720p maximum game rendering but the VGA output will expand this to 1366x768p WXGA using display card upscale. Analog component 1080i output is offered using display card upscale. Upscale does not add quality.

[deadrats]

Yes at the rendering level. What they do is use smaller fast renders, then use upscaling disply card chips to interpolate to higher resolutions. This used to be called "full screen" mode.

not true. the PS3 doesn't have a hardware scaler nor does it employ a software based one:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars/2

quote: "It's odd to see it—a tiny little chip—but this may be one of the secret weapons the 360 has against the PS3. The PS3 has no internal hardware scaler, which means games that are 720p native can only be shown in 720p or 480p; there is no scaling up to 1080p or 1080i. This causes people with older HDTVs to have issues with the available resolutions, and keeps them from playing the games in anything but 480p. It's a vexing problem for a system that's supposed to be HD, and this issue is one of the most challenging that Sony faces. I ask the Microsoft guys how important it was for them to include a scaler in the 360."

the 360's specs call for every game made for the console to support a minimum non-scaled resolution of 720p AND 4 sample AA, so in all honesty i don't see any limitation hardware-wise preventing either console from supporting games that are created to be 1080p native.

[edDV]

Yes at the rendering level. What they do is use smaller fast renders, then use upscaling disply card chips to interpolate to higher resolutions. This used to be called "full screen" mode.

not true. the PS3 doesn't have a hardware scaler nor does it employ a software based one:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars/2

quote: "It's odd to see it—a tiny little chip—but this may be one of the secret weapons the 360 has against the PS3. The PS3 has no internal hardware scaler, which means games that are 720p native can only be shown in 720p or 480p; there is no scaling up to 1080p or 1080i. This causes people with older HDTVs to have issues with the available resolutions, and keeps them from playing the games in anything but 480p. It's a vexing problem for a system that's supposed to be HD, and this issue is one of the most challenging that Sony faces. I ask the Microsoft guys how important it was for them to include a scaler in the 360."

the 360's specs call for every game made for the console to support a minimum non-scaled resolution of 720p AND 4 sample AA, so in all honesty i don't see any limitation hardware-wise preventing either console from supporting games that are created to be 1080p native.

I never made any claims about the PS3. I admit ignorance or is it indifference?

The Xbox360 to the best of my knowledge cannot export above native 720p without upscale. This comes from MS experts at a CompUSA XBox event. I pressed them on the HD DVD player. No 1080p from the current XBox360 they conceede. I'm still a seeker of info on this point. Will 1080p Xbox360 playback require replacing the XBox360 main unit?

[deadrats]

The Xbox360 to the best of my knowledge cannot export above native 720p without upscale. This comes from MS experts at a CompUSA XBox event. I pressed them on the HD DVD player. No 1080p from the current XBox360 they conceede. I'm still a seeker of info on this point. Will 1080p Xbox360 playback require replacing the XBox360 main unit?

i'm not sure if the "MS experts" were confused or not, but the limiting factor as to whether or not a game must be upscaled is not the hardware inability to internally render at higher than 720p but instead it's limited to the game's rendering engine itself.

if a game is coded to internally render at 720p and AA (which is the minimum all 360 games must adhere to) then the game will be upscaled via the hardware scaler if it's outputted to a 1080i/p display.

if the game is coded to internally render at 1080i/p and it's outputted to a 1080i/p display, then no scaling is done.

if the game is coded to internally render at 1080i/p and it's ouputted to a 720p display, then it will be downscaled via the hardware scaler.

the current 360 is capable of outputting 1080p so long as the software update is applied that is available from microsoft (though there are reports that the update screwed some consoles).

the second iteration of the 360, due to be released in a few months (thus making buying a 360 now a waste of money) will use the cpu built on the 65nm process, will have a 120 gig hdd, will support 1080p without the need for a software upgrade (the new firmware will be used) and will include the HDMI connection.

[edDV]

i'm not sure if the "MS experts" were confused or not, but the limiting factor as to whether or not a game must be upscaled is not the hardware inability to internally render at higher than 720p but instead it's limited to the game's rendering engine itself.

if a game is coded to internally render at 720p and AA (which is the minimum all 360 games must adhere to) then the game will be upscaled via the hardware scaler if it's outputted to a 1080i/p display.

I'm not expert on the XBox360, so I was asking specific questions to learn the limits of the current hardware particularly the HD DVD option that was being introduced. My understanding is the current box is limited to 480i/480p/720p and 1080i (upscaled) over analog component and the following resolutions over VGA.

* 640 x 480
* 848 x 480
* 1024 x 768
* 1280 x 720 (720p)
* 1280 x 768
* 1280 x 1024
* 1360 x 768

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/xbox360/highdefdetails.htm
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/accessories/getconnected.htm

Someone there mentioned a HDMI connector but the current box has no HDMI connector and the HD DVD player lacks any video out. Maybe this will be a new future model?

Is there a 1080p option over analog component? I've never heard of a TV that will accept 1080p YPbPr.

I'm just back from a roadtrip so I haven't had time yet to search the XBox forums but I'm still interested about what the HD DVD player can do and how it outputs.

[edDV]

if the game is coded to internally render at 1080i/p and it's outputted to a 1080i/p display, then no scaling is done.

if the game is coded to internally render at 1080i/p and it's ouputted to a 720p display, then it will be downscaled via the hardware scaler.

the current 360 is capable of outputting 1080p so long as the software update is applied that is available from microsoft (though there are reports that the update screwed some consoles).

the second iteration of the 360, due to be released in a few months (thus making buying a 360 now a waste of money) will use the cpu built on the 65nm process, will have a 120 gig hdd, will support 1080p without the need for a software upgrade (the new firmware will be used) and will include the HDMI connection.

Ahh OK
Do you have links for further info?

Current boxes lack the HDMI connector. Is there a way to update a current box?
Will future HDCP encrypted HD DVD titles play on the XBox360?

[FulciLives]

I saw a post (on this website) about a new Xbox 360 (version 2) that will come with HDMI output built-in whereas I guess the current Xbox 360 does not have a built-in HDMI output.

However it was unclear if it was HDCP (although I imagine it would be) and what resolution(s) it would cap out at.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

Thanks, what the demo team said about the XBox HD DVD player working at 1080p didn't make sense for the current Xbox360 and they didn't want to talk about hardware obsolescence or upgrade.