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  1. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    ADDED UPDATE FOR ALL THOSE WHO READ.
    This guide was not intended to compete with professional methods, and was intended only to be a small step up in quality from using the patch method on the entire disc. If you wish for professional studio level results please go elsewhere and stop complaining in my thread. This method is designed for end users, particulaly those still using the patch method or video only disc conversions.
    Despite endless objections and criticism I will stick by my original statement that this guide, and this method is completely viable and will continue to support my guide and answer any questions posted.

    This guide will teach you how to create an NTSC DVD, from a PAL DVD (or vice versa) using a combination of actual converting, and DJRumpy's patch method. It is slightly more complicated than his method but I believe you will be overall much more satisfied with the end result.

    I would say this is the second easiest way in existance to convert a full dvd menu's and all and still have a decent quality disc.
    [Side note, if converting NTSC to PAL, just flip flop the two words (Pretend PAL means NTSC and NTSC means PAL) and it will work just the same.]

    Please start with this guide first.

    Programs needed:
    Dvd Santa
    Vob Blanker
    Ifoedit
    Dvd Shrink


    Part 1



    STEP 1: Select Add Media, and select the video_ts file inside of your PAL dvd by clicking your D drive once on the menu, if the PAL DVD is not region free you will have to first rip it to the hard drive and convert it into a video ts file. (inside the ts file you need only click the first thing listed and it will automatically add the main video of the disc to dvd santa)

    STEP 2: Select the format and ratio you want your new video only video_ts file to be

    STEP 3: Select the destination for your new video_ts video only file

    STEP 4: Push the create DVD button to begin making your new folder

    STEP 5 OPTIONAL: Add subtitles to the vob video or forever hold you peace, you won't be able to add them again unless you intend on splicing them in once the dvd is complete.

    Once dvdsanta finishes its PAL to NTSC (or vice versa) conversion of the main video, it should have created a fresh new video_ts folder


    NOTE: Dvd santa will only rip the main audio stream from your DVD video, you you wish for it to rip an alternate audio stream, open dvd shrink in reauthor mode and change the default audio stream of the main movie before opening it in dvdsanta. If you wish to add multiple audio streams to the main video you will have to use a different guide to add it in once the dvd is complete.



    Part 2

    STEP 6: Open the original pal dvd, complete with menu's in dvdshrink, and select no compression for all attributes, and push the backup button to a folder of your choice.



    Once this is done, you will have a second video_ts folder containing the original PAL DVD, menu's and all.



    Part 3

    STEP 7: Take the new video_ts file, complete with menu's and open it in vob blanker as (input), and select output wherever you wish the new third video_ts file to be.


    STEP 8: Select the main video (usually the largest file), and it will appear in the second bar down below, scroll over to "REPLACE" then select the video from the [b]first[b] video_ts that you converted with dvd santa. Press the "PROCESS!!" Button and wait for your new patched video_ts file to be created.


    Part 4
    Take the newly patched video_ts file into ifoedit, use DJRumpy's patch method to patch the menu's, extras and any remaining PAL content on the disc, unless you prefer to convert the extras as well.

    Part 5
    Open the final video_ts file in dvd santa, or other program of your choice and burn, Since your just patching menu's (which dont move) and optionally extras, although you can use the same method for converting them as the main video, if you choose to do so.




    And behold your fully functional (mostly) NTSC dvd that will work in almost any player without hiccups or jerkyness! (Although on some players you menu make shake a little, but WHO CARES!)
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  2. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    You lost me when you used DVD Santa. I equate it with WinAVI as far as credibility as an encoder goes. However I will be curious to see what others get out of this.
    Read my blog here.
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  3. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    If your confused on any steps just let me know which one it is, essentially in part 1 with dvd santa all your doing is ripping the main PAL video off the dvd to and converting it to a NTSC video_ts folder. Which down the road you will use to replace with the original PAL video in vob blanker. Extras can be done this way as well if the dvd contains them...

    After you've replaced the PAL main video and extra's, with the NTSC copies, you just use the patch method to fix the menu and any additional PAL content on the disc.

    on a side note,

    Dvdsanta is a love it or hate it program, its encoding quality is very average, and its lay out is so simple a 5 year old could use it. It is true there are better encoders out there, but it so simple the room for error is much lower than with most other programs, it also supports subtitles which as far as I know winavi does not.
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    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    I would say this is the second easiest way in existance to convert a full dvd menu's and all and still have a decent quality disc.
    What is the easiest? Please don't say the patch method.

    Although your guide looks thorough, I think it's deceiving cuz you still patch the menus n stuff, without any true format conversion. But some people out there may get use out of it.
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  5. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Basically you are converting the main video to NTSC using a very poor method then attempting to insert it back with Vob Blanker so as to use the original menu ala the patch method.

    Not very elegant.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  6. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    I'm not confused by your guide. I just don't like the process. To begin with, I believe the patch method is an unreliable kludge and not something I would trust. Secondly, when even very good encoders like ProCoder can struggle to give good results when doing format conversion, why would I put my faith in a second-rate toy like DV Santa. Again, these are personal opinions, and I will be interested to see what results people get. Software format conversion is difficult to get right, and so far the only method I have seen that convinces me is the DGPulldown method.
    Read my blog here.
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    Its why I run the things through ulead video studio ... nstc to pal and versa , and rebuild the entire thing from the component's once converted .

    Out of curiousity ... check the play length time of the original to that of the encoded output ... there had better be no difference between them .
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  8. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    Basically you are converting the main video to NTSC using a very poor method then attempting to insert it back with Vob Blanker so as to use the original menu ala the patch method.

    Not very elegant.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    It may not be very elegant, but it works and its fairly stable. I can't say its the "best" way to convert a DVD, but its a step up from using the patch on the entire disc, thats why I call it "hybird". And a normal person can use this method without becoming mind boggled or having to spend large amounts of money on over priced programs.This wasn't intended for professionals, I made this method for normal people with minimal tech knowledge.


    Who says you have to be elegant as long as it works?

    I mean when you build a dvd... especially one that someone is for someone else, and it loads and works fine, are they really going to care about how elegantly it was made? Are you?

    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    I'm not confused by your guide. I just don't like the process. To begin with, I believe the patch method is an unreliable kludge and not something I would trust. Secondly, when even very good encoders like ProCoder can struggle to give good results when doing format conversion, why would I put my faith in a second-rate toy like DVD Santa. Again, these are personal opinions, and I will be interested to see what results people get. Software format conversion is difficult to get right, and so far the only method I have seen that convinces me is the DGPulldown method.
    Its true the patch method is pretty crappy when it comes to heavy action and pan scan shots, but JUST using it on a menu, I mean what does a menu do? It sets there, most of the time when you watch a movie you watch the main video, you don't set there and stare at the menu, not that its going to look bad anyway.

    And DVD Santa for what it is, and how little it costs is does a pretty amazing PAL/NTSC conversion.

    Original PAL image: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-2/110498/2932.jpg Frame 29:32
    Super Saiya Son Goku

    DVDsanta NTSC conversion: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-2/110498/29322.jpg Frame 29.32
    Super Saiya Son Goku

    Originally Posted by Bjs
    Its why I run the things through ulead video studio ... nstc to pal and versa , and rebuild the entire thing from the component's once converted .

    Out of curiousity ... check the play length time of the original to that of the encoded output ... there had better be no difference between them .
    The play time syncs perfectly.

    Originally Posted by Pinstripes23
    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    I would say this is the second easiest way in existance to convert a full dvd menu's and all and still have a decent quality disc.
    What is the easiest? Please don't say the patch method.

    Although your guide looks thorough, I think it's deceiving cuz you still patch the menus n stuff, without any true format conversion. But some people out there may get use out of it.
    Again, menu's don't have intense action and they don't pan and scan, your not going to have any trouble with them.


    Why don't some of you people try this method before casting stones?
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    Originally Posted by LadyLiete


    Why don't some of you people try this method before casting stones?
    I already have an idea on how it will turn out. Like I said some people will get use out of this guide, but it isn't a true compliant NTSC conversion. Plus the movie conversion will probably have duped or decimated frames in order to get the framerate correct, if using DVD Santa. DGPulldown keeps the same framecount on progressive conversions.
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    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    Why don't some of you people try this method before casting stones?
    Because most of us have been doing PAL to NTSC conversion's and were way beyond these low quality methods long before you came along 8)

    And just using the patch method to "convert" menu's from PAL to NTSC, and i use the word convert very lightly as it's pretty much voodoo, still leaves them as PAL, even though they may be telling any certain player they are NTSC.
    But it is still flawed because if the player or tv will not convert or play PAL video the menus won't work even with the "patch" method, so you may as well either convert the whole thing, main menu, main movie, extras, ect. or just patch the whole thing and not even bother converting anything.

    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    why would I put my faith in a second-rate toy like DV Santa
    WOW!!! i don't think i would have rated it even that good
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  11. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Noahtuck
    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    Why don't some of you people try this method before casting stones?
    Because most of us have been doing PAL to NTSC conversion's and were way beyond these low quality methods long before you came along 8)

    And just using the patch method to "convert" menu's from PAL to NTSC, and i use the word convert very lightly as it's pretty much voodoo, still leaves them as PAL, even though they may be telling any certain player they are NTSC.
    But it is still flawed because if the player or tv will not convert or play PAL video the menus won't work even with the "patch" method, so you may as well either convert the whole thing, main menu, main movie, extras, ect. or just patch the whole thing and not even bother converting anything.

    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    why would I put my faith in a second-rate toy like DVD Santa
    WOW!!! i don't think i would have rated it even that good
    You definately under estimate the program, why don't you try it before you go around slinging baseless insults.

    "its low quality its low quality" Why don't you try proving it?

    You know what, because you can't, DvdSanta has good encoding quality and I would stake that it probably does a hell of alot better job than whatever POS your using.
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  12. You know what, because you can't, DvdSanta has good encoding quality and I would stake that it probably does a hell of alot better job than whatever POS your using.

    Wanna upload a small piece of a conversion you did using DVD Santa? Upload 10-15 seconds worth (with movement/motion) to:

    http://rapidshare.de/

    It'll take up to 50 MB. Then post the link here. If you don't know how to cut, one way is to open a vob in DGIndex and use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a small section. Then File->Save Project and Demux Video. Or MPEG2Cut.
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  13. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    ill do it... just to prove you all wrong

    13 second PAL vob clip 16:9, SIZE: 11.0mb

    The same 13 second vob clip converted to NTSC by Dvdsanta 16:9, SIZE: 11.9mb

    I made sure there was lots of action (its a soccer game), and no im not dumb I know how to rip video clips.

    If this isn't proof enough I don't know what is.
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  14. Hi-

    and no im not dumb I know how to rip video clips.

    Plenty of people don't know how to cut pieces from a video, or where to upload them. It has nothing to do with being dumb.

    Thanks for uploading a small piece.

    If this isn't proof enough I don't know what is.

    Proof of what? As I and a lot of others have suspected, every 6th frame is a duplicate frame. The effect is to introduce a steady stutter or jerk into the video. Plus, bits are wasted encoding for 29.97fps, where it could have been encoded for 25fps, with pulldown applied afterwards, resulting in higher quality, as measured by the average quant. It may be OK for rookies that don't know what they're doing, which is about all you claimed originally. But as for, "I would stake that it probably does a hell of alot better job than whatever POS your using". Well, any other encoder, commercial or free, can do a better job of the conversion, in the right hands. I've done it properly using Procoder, CCE, and HCEnc (the free MPEG-2 encoder). FulciLives and many others following his guide have made proper conversions using TMPGEnc.

    You're brave to put the video out there for all to see and study and use, and I appreciate that. I hope some will find the guide useful.
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  15. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Dang some of you people must be really picky it looks crystal clear to me.
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  16. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    Dang some of you people must be really picky it looks crystal clear to me.
    It may look "crystal clear" but what manono and others are trying to tell you is that PAL to NTSC is "tricky" due to the frame rate difference and most methods of "simple" conversion do the frame rate conversion very poorly ... DVD Santa is one such program that does a poor frame rate conversion.

    Some reading for you:

    1.) PAL to NTSC problem
    2.) THE HOLY GRAIL? ... A new method of PAL to NTSC conversion!
    3.) How to convert a PAL DVD to a NTSC DVD using TMPGEnc Plus 2.5x
    4.) Xvid to DVD 512x288 (1.78:1) [=16:9] Letterbox flattened
    5.) How to convert PAL DVD camcorder footage to NTSC for editing

    Links 1 - 3 cover mostly PAL DVD to NTSC. Link 4 covers doing it when the source is a MPEG-4 file. Link 5 deals with a PAL source that is what we call "true" interlaced (camcorder video footage) which presents a special "case" as to how to handle the PAL to NTSC conversion.

    If you want a better understanding of PAL to NTSC then I suggest you read these threads (and maybe even some of the threads referenced by these threads).

    In the end the ability to do quality PAL to NTSC must be attributed to the user by the name of xesdeeni. We must not forget that it was his work that made all of this possible.

    xesdeeni's website ---> http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  17. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    I understand that there are betters ways of doing it, and most of them I am probably capable of doing. I knew this before I even wrote this guide. I am also fully aware of the details in both NTSC and PAL (I go to college for video editing).

    The point of this guide was to be a simple, and somewhat small step up from using the patch method on the entire disc. This wasn't intended to compete with your TMPGEnc guide, just alot of people in this thread seem to be compairing them.

    I honestly don't care if it repeats a frame, or the quality isnt up to the standards of the vets of this forum, im sure the average person would prefer speed and ease of use over quality. Sorta like why dvdshrink is so popular... It wasn't intended for people with advanced knowledge of dvd editing... which is what all of you who have replied so far fail to understand.

    ----------------------------

    I added an update because I am getting sick and tired of all this flaming on my method. It works good. Thats my story and im stickin to it.

    DIEEEE
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  18. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    I honestly don't care if it repeats a frame, or the quality isnt up to the standards of the vets of this forum, im sure the average person would prefer speed and ease of use over quality.
    An interesting "take" on things but sorry ... the method you have presented is very poor. Sure people would like "easy" and "simple" etc. but to have that AND quality is something that cannot be done when it comes to a PAL to NTSC conversion.

    Well that's not really true ... the DGPulldown method is very simple and my TMPGEnc Plus guide is very simple. Maybe not "speedy" and it does envolve many steps but my guide is about as easy as easy gets YET still delivers quality video.

    "speed" ... "ease of use" ... these things mean NOTHING if the end result is of poor quality.

    Your method is poor quality. It is not to be advocated.

    Sorry but that's how I see it and based on comments so far I am not alone in that thought.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  19. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Im sorry but im completely sick and tired of hearing your complaints, read the updates.

    If you think that is bad video quality you should lock yourself in a bubble.
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  20. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    Im sorry but im completely sick and tired of hearing your complaints, read the updates.
    I'm completely sick and tired of you making excuses for creating a guide that is half assed and produces poor video quality.

    Sorry Dr. Frankenstein but this time you made a monster.

    Better luck next time.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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    You will have forgive most of these people, as they think they are video GODS.
    As for your problem, use what is best for you and forget these guys, as most of are uneducated,
    which you can tell from most of their posts
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  22. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    Originally Posted by LadyLiete
    Im sorry but im completely sick and tired of hearing your complaints, read the updates.
    I'm completely sick and tired of you making excuses for creating a guide that is half assed and produces poor video quality.

    Sorry Dr. Frankenstein but this time you made a monster.

    Better luck next time.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    Pfft you put one of my converted discs in a dvd player, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference from yours without a magnifine glass or an HD TV.

    You just love to rip on other people's work, you don't see me in your thread complaining and flaming your work. Maybe I should go in your thread and start picking apart every tiny little thing you did wrong, bitching and filling your thread with spam.

    Originally Posted by SWBisbee
    You will have forgive most of these people, as they think they are video GODS.
    As for your problem, use what is best for you and forget these guys, as most of are uneducated,
    which you can tell from most of their posts
    And annoying to boot.
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  23. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Everyone makes mistakes (as hard as we all try not to) but the point here is that your process is inherently flawed. It's not a mistake per se as it is the fact that DVD Santa cannot do a proper PAL to NTSC conversion. On top of that you suggest the dreaded "patch" method to deal with the menu.

    So to advocate something so blatantly wrong is just not acceptable.

    The so-called "patch" method was first devised at a time when PAL to NTSC was still very much a damn tricky thing to do. This is no longer the case and therefore the "patch" method or other poor methods of PAL to NTSC should now be discarded.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  24. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, patching that menu is really gonna bring down the quality of the disc. About as much as patching a tire is going to bring down the preformance of your car going down the road, if the engine runs fine and the tire is patched who cares?

    You? video nerds? yea. The other 99.9% of the world? no.
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    LadyLiete ...

    Even though this is as old as the hill using the "patched method" ... unless your prepared like the majority of us to run as many test's as possible to confirm the quality of the output as being correct ... especially from the point of dvdsanta ... then you will always get an argument from other's ... just something to expect till one know's better and can prove a superior method too replace it .

    Dvdsanta is not highly rated for this process , but only those with more technical expertise would know the difference ... there are those of us who literally live inside our pc's , and video / audio / programing is all we ever do ... until something new worth while come's along ... taking us kicking and sceaming away from what some would refer too as "my baby" .

    These are the one's who need a break for a while ... in my case ... that be the stupid game of golf ... atleast I exercise the body and mind .

    While this method dose appear to work in some case's ... half patching ... as they used to say ... "a good job done in a half arse'd about way" ... this is in no way , a reflection on your abilities ... just that the job is only half finished or incomplete .

    Criticism is something that should not be taken too close to heart ... but to learn from ... no matter how it is said in print , and who did it .
    Name calling , and failure to confirm data only lead's other's too think otherwise .

    A few of the member's that have posted in reply , do actually know what their talking about ... mind you ... not all do ... and are a great resource for other's to learn from when it come's to many issue's related to video / audio or even pc hardware error's ... this is not to say mistake's are not made at time's ... as many are aware of ... and in some circumstance's ... apologies have been given .

    A quote : It wasn't intended for people with advanced knowledge of dvd editing... which is what all of you who have replied so far fail to understand.

    Well , there gose the name calling bit again ...

    I'll reformat the question I asked before ... but before I do ... if you found anything within my post's as being pointless , rude or felt it to be a personal attack upon your good self , then I'll be the first to apologize for that ... it was not my intention to do so .

    The reformated question : I know that the internal structure of the file's will be in sync , but ...

    What was the playback time difference noted between the original title (pre) , and that of the one dvdsanta produced (post) ... the word being production .

    1: Play back on dvd home player .
    2: Play back in more than one pc play back program .

    I really would like to know this as a reference , even though other's may not be interested .

    =============

    PS :

    SWBisbee ... cool it ... you dont go making apologies for other's by asking someone to forgive other's ... as you have not been ask too do so .
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  26. Member DJRumpy's Avatar
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    I have to agree with the others. I initiallly put the patch version on here years ago due to constant requests from beginners on how it was done. I've regretted ever since...lol, since from the point that I posted it, I somehow 'owned' that process. I didn't invent the patch method, and I don't use it myself for obvious reasons (obvious to any of the old timers on here anyway ).

    You posted your guide in a public forum, and as such, you must expect to receive feedback, both good and bad. Unfortunately, your process is flawed, as has already been pointed out, by a poor tool conversion. There are many other guides on here that will give perfect PAL to NTSC and vice versa. This is the reason your getting such poor feedback. By placing this here, it is judged in relation to the quality of the output using other guides and tools.

    These responses are not (or should not) be meant as a personal attack. They should simply point out the flaws in your process, and you as the owner of the guide, should either incorporate that info into your guide so as to properly set expectations of the guides users, or simply remove the guide.

    The guide itself is technically accurate, as it does do a conversion from pal to ntsc, however it does not convert the menu's, it is not compatible with all players (namely those that do not work with the patch hack), and the quality is poor (meaning it is not a true framerate conversion, but rather it dupes frames to increase the framerate). Just note those limitations at the beginning of your guide, and the folks posting here would have nothing to comment about.

    I do encourage everyone to post guides and share their knowledge. Afterall, that's what makes a forum work, no? Just take the comments to heart, try to make them useful, and don't take things so persnally ^_^

    Cheers
    Impossible to see the future is. The Dark Side clouds everything...
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  27. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    Well call it an easy/lazy method. Its at least better than patching the whole disc.
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  28. Member LadyLiete's Avatar
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    A bump for boredums sake

    You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning.
    Completely uncalled for, and unnecessary bump.

    / Moderator mats.hogberg
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    you should have just let this thread fade into oblivion....
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