Why do all hard drive DVD recorders suck?

[FulciLives]

Fulci, I plan to try your idea next. Where can I find a Pioneer 640 in stores?

Good luck there.

Never saw one in a retail store.

If it makes you feel any better I can throw up some test samples for you using my Pioneer DVR-531H-s ... my model supposedly has all the same "guts" more-or-less as the 640 model ... those that have tested both say the recordings appear to be nearly if not exactly identical while I think one post I read indicated that the 640 looked a hint better at the 1 hour mode only (go figure).

I have Comcast cable with the Motorola DCT 6412 III cable box ... I use S-Video. I also have a raw cable feed direct to the RF input on the recorder for analog cable channels which sometimes look better that way than going through the cable box (sometimes the other way around).

Did you catch the VHS clip I threw up in an earlier post in this thread?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[InXess]

Pioneer 640
http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10073317&catid=22494
(was 369 CAD)

Pioneer 540
http://www.costco.ca/en-CA/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10291315&whse=BCCA&topnav=&browse=
(was 299 CAD)

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/subclass.asp?logon=&langid=EN&catid=22226

I checked the LG LRH 780:
Gspot: 2 hr mode avg br 4435 kbps + 256k 2ch DD (bitrate viewer= 5k avg) (3.7k min - 8k max), 4 hr mode 2240 kbps avg (1.7 to 4k max) + 2ch DD 192kbps audio (bitrate viewer= 2.4k avg)
both 2 & 4 hr modes are 720x480

[lordsmurf]

http://www.bestbuy.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0926INGFS10 073317&catid=22494

Why does it seem all the good electronics, tv shows, toys, cable channels, and other things are no llonger found in the USA? All the good stuff is in Canada and the UK. What gives?

[FulciLives]

I've never seen the DVR-640H-s in a USA Best Buy store.

Go figure.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[InXess]

Why does it seem all the good electronics, tv shows, toys, cable channels, and other things are no llonger found in the USA? All the good stuff is in Canada and the UK. What gives?

Many here think it's the other way around Go figure.

[InXess]

Both Costo, Futureshop as well as BestBuy offer online sales and no question returns (30 days) I assume to US customers also. There's a duty tax on purchases over $200 (CAD or USD?? - unclear) that go south of the border (often in red (warning) on eBay for US buyers).

[trhouse]

davideck wrote:
Their IRE error is similar to that on the JVC DVD Recorders.


I do not agree with this.

JVC does not have an IRE error as so much as it has an IRE variance (like ALL ... I repeat ... ALL... other DVD recorders, including ones with so-called "adjustments")

I have extensively tested two JVC DR-M10S's and Gshelley61 has tested one independently. We both concluded that the M10S has an IRE error. Of the two I tested, one was made in Japan and the other China. Both had an IRE error of 7.5 with little variance. The source IRE was independently verified with a scope. Recorders like the JVC M10S and Sony GX315 are setup so that IRE=0 represents black. This IRE level cannot be reached by sources which represent black as IRE=7.5 which includes VHS and standard NTSC broadcast resulting in a slightly light recording.

The test results are on this thread,

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=279460&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=96

There was an October, 2006 update with regard to this specific issue on the above thread.

I have a Pioneer 531H and am quite fond of it but I would not recommend using it to record higher resolution sources. You may want to have a look at the resolution tests for it on this thread,

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=279460&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Check the XP mode resolution of the 531H vs the SP mode resolution of the M10S. Some nice things about the 531H are that is is very compact, pretty easy to upgrade the hard drive, and can copy non copyrighted disks to the hdd so more copies can be made with no computer.

[lacywest]

My Panasonic DMR-EH50 has been working perfect for 2 Years, excellent picture quality.
also the TV Guide has worked flawlessley

I have 4 of them ... one from Circuit City and the other 3 from Ebay.

I'm currently only using 2 of them [ 1 in bedroom and the other in the living room ]... the other 2 are extras ... for ... just in case. The two I'm using are each connected to a Directv HR10 [250 GB Hard Drives] High Definition unit ... one in each room.

I just recently bought a Panasonic 42" Plasma HD for $1299 at Bestbuy and it's going in the bedroom. EEEEHHHAAAAAA WWWAAAHHOOOOOO

The TV in the living room is a Sony 51" HD Rear Projection ... My wife and I bought it the summer of 2005 from Circuit City ... it is still working great and the image from the DMR-EH50 looks great on it ... I do wear glasses but really the image does look good.

I like them ... the greenish tint ... some people talk about is not seen ... maybe if I do a side by side comparision.

I have the TV Guide feature turned off ... not available on Directv.

I record in XP mode to the Hard drive and burn to TY Value Pack DVDs in FR mode.

I'm getting low on the TYs 100 Pack DVDs ... need to order some more.

[gshelley61]

This whole IRE issue has been gone over many, many times. Some DVD recorders, even some name brand units, fail to include a black level compensation adjustment for analog US/Canada NTSC source video, which has 7.5 IRE as the black level standard (a very dark gray).

All the other analog video formats in the world, including Japanese NTSC, have 0 IRE (true video black) as their black level standard.

This is where the problem comes in. Many DVD recorders, especially the early models, have no way to "stretch" 7.5 IRE source black level video down to 0 IRE prior to encoding to DVD (digital video black level equates to 0 IRE analog). This causes finished DVD's made from American and Canadian analog NTSC sources such as VHS, laserdisc and TV to appear somewhat washed out when compared to a properly encoded DVD. The blacks look too light, dark gray instead of black.

None of the early Panasonic and Toshiba units had a source video black level adjustment. Neither do Lite-On DVD recorders. None of the JVC units I've owned have it, either. The Sony RDR-GX315 does not have one. All these units properly record DVD's from analog video sources that have a 0 IRE black level (like the s-video output of consumer digital camcorders, for example), but have problems with 7.5 IRE black level sources.

This can easily be compensated with a video proc amp to manually adjust the source black level down to 0 IRE prior to sending to any of the above recorders.

DVD recorders that do have a black level compensation adjustment or setting for 7.5 IRE black level sources are preferable IMHO, and generally make converting analog NTSC to DVD easier by foregoing the need for a separate proc amp in most cases. However, video sources cary widely in quality, peak white level, color tint and saturation, video noise, and black level. Sometimes these things are way off, and a simple black level setting on the recorder is not enough.

As LS mentioned, the first Panasonic units that did include a black level setting for 7.5 IRE sources were too aggressive and the resulting DVD's usually looked too dark.

The newer Toshiba and Pioneer units are nice because they not only have input black level settings for both 7.5 IRE and 0 IRE sources, but the input video can be tweaked a bit more (toshiba has "mode" settings that adjust the black level and luma up or down, Pioneer has built in proc amp adjustments to do the same).

[lacywest]

Sorry for your problems !
I have a Philips DVDR 3450H and it's great - I record everything in HQ mode (the best available) and use PC DVDShrink to fit 2 hours on one DVD+R disc.

regards Pol

How do you do that ? ... Does the Phillips have a USB output or something ??

[gshelley61]

LS - I agree that the Pioneer 640 looks tempting. Especially since you can burn DL discs for the longer HDD recordings you make. If you don't need firewire in, that seems like the one to get.

Although, there is a Pioneer DVR-745H available overseas that has a 400GB HDD, firewire input, HDMI output w/ upscaling, PAL & NTSC tuners, PAL & NTSC recording and PAL & NTSC playback...

B&H stocks them -

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=PIDVR745E&is=REG&Q=&O=pro...ist&sku=472688

[Frobozz]

For about half the price of the 745H B&H also has the Pioneer DVR-530E in stock that has Firewire and 80GB HDD.

[FulciLives]

LS - I agree that the Pioneer 640 looks tempting. Especially since you can burn DL discs for the longer HDD recordings you make. If you don't need firewire in, that seems like the one to get.

Although, there is a Pioneer DVR-745H available overseas that has a 400GB HDD, firewire input, HDMI output w/ upscaling, PAL & NTSC tuners, PAL & NTSC recording and PAL & NTSC playback...

B&H stocks them -

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=PIDVR745E&is=REG&Q=&O=pro...ist&sku=472688

That Pioneer DVR-745H sounds nice but way too rich for my budget at nearly a thousand dollars.

I like the PAL/NTSC recording and bigger HDD though ...

I really do need a PAL DVD recorder for some PAL VHS videos I have ... maybe the Pioneer DVR-330SM (which is just under $300) will do for that.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Conclusions:

JVC still makes the best DVD recorder, but you're going to pay for it. It's a professional-line piece of equipment and carries a $1300 price tag. This will price it away from most folks, including myself. This is based off reviews from others I trust, who assure me the quality is at least as good as the DR-M100 was.

Toshiba makes the second best DVD recorder, and one most folks can afford with a little savings, carrying a $350-400 price tag. Not bad at all, lots of features, excellent quality. It has one quirk, however, in that home users will NOT want to use this in their bedroom, as the fan runs 24/7. If you do not plan to timeshift via timer recordings, then I'd suggest plugging it into a conventient surge strip, and then flipping it off when not in use. It's a great machine for VHS>DVD recordings. The power consumption I'm told is about 15W, or close to that of a nightlight that runs 24/7. The fan will likely not be heard in a noisier room (living room, rec room), and the fan can be custom modded (see the mediachance.com guide) to lower the speed/volume.

For those seeking quieter machines, for a tad less money ($220), look no further than the Polaroid 2001G. Yes, less hard drive, less features, less recording modes. But it should be able to make good 2-hour or 4-hour DVDs (they basically look the same). This one has an LSI chipset too, like that of JVC.

[trhouse]

If you are not in a hurry, this unit may be a prelude to a new 2001G. The thread was started by one of our Canadian neighbors.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/archive/t313329.html

The Polaroid and Sonar's remote control bear a striking similarity. Same with the location and heatsinking of the mpeg processor which may be LSI. The Canadian unit has no fan which is a bit worrisome since the Polaroid processor is as warm as the JVC and both those units have fans.

This unit has a removeable panel to making swapping hdd's even easier. No one has mentioned if the tuner is mono or stereo.

$200 Canadian is a good price considering the present exchange rate is $1.17 Canadian equals $1.00 US.

[InXess]

So what is the final verdict on Pioneer 540/640 in terms of quality of the recording... (?)

Btw. Polaroid/Kaco/Sonar come from the same factory in Mainland China (must have same guts/remote and functions).

[lordsmurf]

The Pioneer 640 uses 720x480 across the board, so it fails my quality test with an "F". That's video stupidity. The older ones cannot be found, but they always provided excellent quality in the past, and would intelligently use 352x480 beyond 2-hour modes (at some point in time, at least).

[InXess]

OK, that we know already... what's the quality of recording anyways regardless of 720x480 issue. I'm talking especially from 1 to 3 hr range. Any artifacts?

[lordsmurf]

There will be artifacts past 2 hours, more or less, depends on source. by 3 hours, there will undoubtedly be artifacts. LG, Philips, and Panasonic all do it when using 720x480 @ 3000-4000 mb/s VBR.

It's just not enough.

FulciLives has already talked about his Pioneer doing this in past posts, in the MN130-220 range.

[FulciLives]

There will be artifacts past 2 hours, more or less, depends on source. by 3 hours, there will undoubtedly be artifacts. LG, Philips, and Panasonic all do it when using 720x480 @ 3000-4000 mb/s VBR.

It's just not enough.

FulciLives has already talked about his Pioneer doing this in past posts, in the MN130-220 range.

I like the quality of the Pioneer DVR-531H-s but it does not switch to Half D1 until MN 11 or 220 minutes or 3 hours and 40 minutes. That's just ridicules.

The Pioneer DVR-640H-s is even worse in that it will not switch to Half D1 until MN 8 or 270 minutes or 4 hours 30 minutes. That's even more ridicules.

However ... having said that ... I do think the quality of the Pioneer units are top notch. I like just about everything about the unit (other than the EPG/TVGOS which exists on older models but not on the current DVR-640H-s model).

As long as you don't go past the 2 hour mode (or at least not much past it ... after all 2 hours 10 minutes or 2 hours 15 minutes etc. ain't the end of the world for Full D1) then you will be very happy.

I mean there are many things to consider ... selectable bitrate ability, quality of analog-to-digital conversion, proc amp like controls, selectable IRE BLACK LEVEL adjustment, ease-of-use with various features like editing etc.

The Pioneer models pass all of that with flying colors. The only downfall is the late switch to Half D1 and for some the lack of a DV or IEEE 1394 input (which I could care less for).

It is important to note that if you don't intend to record past (or not much past) the 2 hour mode that the Pioneer is still very much in the running.

Lordsmurf is very fond of recording at the 3 hour - 4 hour mode using Half D1 and I understand his reasons and even agree with him but at the same time (or on the flip side of the coin) there are those that would rather have Full D1 resolution at 2 hours or less even though that means less running time per DVD disc. I also understand that thought process as well.

BTW for some reason Toshiba does not have a PDF manual available for download on the RD-XS35 model which I find very odd since they do have a manual for the RD-XS34 (old model) and RD-XS55 (current model).

So when does the RD-XS35 switch from Full D1 to Half D1?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[p_l]

The manual for the RD-XS35 can be found and downloaded from this page, when you click the Download tab. Although there is a table for audio bitrates on page 164, nowhere could I find any information in the manual on when the RD-XS35 goes over from D1 to half D1. Perhaps some of the helpful folks over at AVSForum might know.

[FulciLives]

The manual for the RD-XS35 can be found and downloaded from this page, when you click the Download tab. Although there is a table for audio bitrates on page 164, nowhere could I find any information in the manual on when the RD-XS35 goes over from D1 to half D1. Perhaps some of the helpful folks over at AVSForum might know.

Thanks for that ... the manual is NOT on the Toshiba USA website but they did have the manual for the RD-XS55 which I downloaded since I figure it probably works the same ... more or less ... as the RD-XS35 ... both being the same production year.

However I couldn't find any info either in the RD-XS55 manual about resolution(s) used for "X" recording mode.

The Pioneer manuals make it very clear what resolution(s) are used for "X" recording mode.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I'll probably drop a 300GB drive into this Polaroid.

[gshelley61]

My RD-XS34 goes to half D1 for settings longer than 2 hours 30 minutes. I can't recall at exactly what bitrate setting triggers it.

[next]

I'll probably drop a 300GB drive into this Polaroid.

This is very easy. As one of the first few who tried it I can verify that it works well.

You can also go external with both the HDD and the DVD burner. I am running two terabytes with the Polaroid now (eight 250GB drives). I set up an external drive enclosure to house both the Sony DVD burner and an IDE removable drive rack. It is black and to the right. Here's a pic:


You'll also se the Toshiba RD-KX50 in the pic. In my opinion Toshiba is the best thing going right now. For many reason. Too many to list here.

[davideck]

Conclusions:

JVC still makes the best DVD recorder, but you're going to pay for it...

Toshiba makes the second best DVD recorder, and one most folks can afford...

I would rate the Toshiba above the JVC for the following reasons;

1) The TBC performance of the Toshiba is better than the JVC. Specifically, the Toshiba does a good job of reducing horizontal jitter errors while the JVC often exacerbates them.

2) The Toshiba can provide a more transparent capture at 720x480 than the JVC. This is primarily due to the fact that the JVC NR (which cannot be turned off) causes a slight loss of detail on higher resolution sources such as S-VHS, Hi-8, etc. The Toshiba NR can be turned off.

3) Affordability (as you pointed out).

[samijubal]

Have you ever done anything with the HD in that Toshiba RD-XK50? I tried to put the same HD out of the exact same recorder in one of those, it wouldn't work. I've been using that same HD in a PC for a few months now.

[samijubal]

Conclusions:

JVC still makes the best DVD recorder, but you're going to pay for it...

Toshiba makes the second best DVD recorder, and one most folks can afford...

I would rate the Toshiba above the JVC for the following reasons;

1) The TBC performance of the Toshiba is better than the JVC. Specifically, the Toshiba does a good job of reducing horizontal jitter errors while the JVC often exacerbates them.

2) The Toshiba can provide a more transparent capture at 720x480 than the JVC. This is primarily due to the fact that the JVC NR (which cannot be turned off) causes a slight loss of detail on higher resolution sources such as S-VHS, Hi-8, etc. The Toshiba NR can be turned off.

3) Affordability (as you pointed out).

I've been trying to tell people on here for a year now that the Toshiba is better. I can't tell the difference between watching the satellite and the Toshiba recordings. It's easy to see the difference between the sat and the JVC recordings.

[InXess]

I tried to put the same HD out of the exact same recorder in one of those, it wouldn't work.

... and precisely for that reason Toshiba is not a good buy.

Going back to 720x480 frame size that most recorders do use even past 2 hr. boundary... I'm wondering whether there's a reason other then designers stupidity (as suggested). Most plasma LCD panel TV's have tremendous problems with analog cable, VHS and other similar (low resolution) sources - terribly noisy picture in many cases simply unwatchable. Forcing 720x480 may be the way to address this issue. Since I don't own large screen plasma or LCD I can only speculate. Anyone could comment on quality of Half D1 on plasma/LCD vs. Full D1?

[samijubal]

I tried to put the same HD out of the exact same recorder in one of those, it wouldn't work.

... and precisely for that reason Toshiba is not a good buy.

That's not a good reason to say it's not a good buy. Toshiba uses a Seagate HD, not the Western Digital drives that other manufacterers use, that are well known for high failure rates.