GOP problems converting from an avi

[Amzin]

I've done my best to search through the forums to find a fix for this, but I'm just getting more and more lost.
I have a PAL movie that's split into 2 avi files. I want to burn a copy for my friend who only has an NTSC player. I've done it once before with another movie, but I must have gotten lucky.
I've used FulciLives' guide https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=300144&highlight=pal+ntsc attempting to convert, but the problem seems to originate from the initial conversion of avi to vob, which is something not covered in his guide.
The problem I'm having is with the GOP. I've tried using a number of different DVD authering programs (DVD-lab pro, MuxMan, DVDAutherGUI) and all give an unignorable error with the GOP being too big (or simply incorrect).
I've attempted to convert the avi's using both WinAvi Video converter and the ImTOO Video Converter. While both successfully make the vob files, I can't seem to convert them any further without getting a GOP error. If I try to burn them as a PAL dvd, it seems to work fine at this stage, though.
Aside from the initial conversion to vob, I've followed that guide as close as I could, using DGIndex, VirtualDubMod, and TMPGEnc Plus. TMPGEnc is the only program I could even find settings related to GOP in, and I have no idea how to set them correctly.
Here's a SS of the GOP settings I had:

I also tried it with the Max setting at 36, same problem, but again I am really new to this GOP thing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[aedipuss]

load the tmpgenc dvd (ntsc).mcf template and don't mess with the gop settings if you don't know what you are doing.

[reboot]

Just do a closed GOP.
Encode at 25fps, same as the source, then change the header using DGPulldown.
Author as NTSC. I do this all the time from PAL source avi's.

[Alex_ander]

The GOP limits are 15 frames for PAL and 18 for NTSC.

[Amzin]

Loaded the dvd (ntsc).mcf template like aedipuss suggested, looks good, but should I let it convert the framerate too or save that part for DGPulldown afterwords?

Also, reboot, I don't see any options in DGPulldown for changing header or GOP? Just let's me select the framerate conversion and a few other misc options (set timecode, no output, convert in place).

Thanks guys!

[Amzin]

Ok, it seems to have worked, I muxed the m2v and ac3 together with MuxMan, it didn't complain about the GOP, but the audio and video don't sync up. . .
It looks like TMPGEnc converted the framerate to 29.97, could that have something to do with it? The audio seems to start at the same time as the video, but it's about 10 seconds behind the video once you can see someone start talking.

[guns1inger]

Frankly, I would not go from avi to mpeg2 (VOB) then change format, as this requires an un-necessary re-encoding of all the video. You should resize for NTSC (720 x 480) and encode at 25 fps (15 frame GOP), then use DGPulldown's 25 fps -> 29.97 fps mode, then author.

[Amzin]

I was converting it so I could use DGIndex to split the audio and video before doing the pulldown. DGIndex can't split an avi, would you recommend I use something else, or will DGPulldown actually not screw up the sync?

[aedipuss]

give the free version of convertxtodvd a try. it's listed below the current version. the new ones work well at framerate conversions, maybe the old one will suffice.

https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=vso_DivXtoDVD

[guns1inger]

I would use virtualdubmod to demux the audio from the avi, then convert the video using a combination of fitcd (for resizing), avisynth (for frameserving) and ProCoder to encode. I would encode the audio separately yo AC3 using sound forge (if necessary), although ffmpeggui will also do it if needed.

The point of using the DGpulldown approach is that the original running time of the video remains unchanged, as you have not changed the base framerate. The original was PAL @ 25 fps, and your converted mpeg is now NTSC @ 25 fps. The pulldown flags tell your player to fill in the gaps to maintain a playback framerate of 29.97 fps, in the same way standard NTSC 23.976 material has a playback framerate of 29.97 fps.

It is slightly more complicated if you have a PAL DVD to begin with, as in John's (FulciLives) guide. But you have an avi file - much simpler proposition.

[manono]

You can't join the AVIs before you start? Then encode them separately and join in Muxman when authoring, both the video files and the audio files. Your pic shows an 18 frame GOP. That won't do. As guns1inger says, make it for 15 (and to allow for a margin of error, I'd use 12 frames). Some of these guys don't know what they're talking about. Open GOP is not only fine, but preferred. And you can't have an 18 frame GOP and then apply pulldown.

I was converting it so I could use DGIndex to split the audio and video before doing the pulldown.

Huh? As guns1inger says, separate them in VDubMod before starting.

It looks like TMPGEnc converted the framerate to 29.97, could that have something to do with it?

Yes, if you then applied pulldown after that, or if TMPGEnc simply speeded up the video to achieve 29.97fps.

[Amzin]

I would use virtualdubmod to demux the audio from the avi, then convert the video using a combination of fitcd (for resizing), avisynth (for frameserving) and ProCoder to encode. I would encode the audio separately yo AC3 using sound forge (if necessary), although ffmpeggui will also do it if needed.

Yikes, ProCoder is a bit pricey, isn't it? Would I make the Avisynth frameserving script and load it into ProCoder, then?

manono: I hadn't joined the AVI's yet because I was having such a problem getting it to work right. Since I've re-encoded/demuxed/muxed/fiddled so much, I didn't want it to take twice as long each time. I'll join them together once I'm sure I'm doing it right. I've just been attempting all of this with the first avi seperately, so the audio is only from the first and the video is only from the first.
When you say my pic shows an 18 frame GOP, how do you get that number? As I said, this GOP thing is new to me, and I can't seem to find a "GOP for dummies" type thread >.<

I ran it through convertxtodvd, and the info I'm getting from it seems to show that it converted completely over to NTSC, but I'm dubious that it really is. Guess I'll burn it and see.

[guns1inger]

HCEnc is free, reads avisynth scripts, and does a very good job.

[reboot]

Use the standard NTSC template for tmpgenc, but change the framerate to 25fps. If tmpgenc won't let you change it, select "Load, template, extra, unlock.mcf"
Encode your file to ES (Video+Audio) on the tmpgenc front screen.
Run the m2v through dgpulldown, going from 25fps to 29.97fps.
Author the movie.dgpulldown.m2v and your original audio.
It should sync up.

[manono]

When you say my pic shows an 18 frame GOP, how do you get that number?

IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBPBB=18 frames

1 I-Frame, 5 P-Frames, 12 B-Frames.

While 18 frames is the max, once you apply pulldown the GOP size jumps because of the displayed framecount of 29.97fps.

29.97/25=1.1988

18 x 1.1988 = 21.5784.

You'll have some GOPs as large as 22 frames. Following guns1inger's advice, and using TMPGEnc, you'd lower the P_picture count to 4. Personally, I'd use 3. It may not make any difference going from 25->29.97. It'll make a big difference applying standard 2:3 pulldown (i. e., you won't be able to use 4).

[Amzin]

The convertxtodvd version didn't play on my player, kinda figured. I downloaded fitCD and HCEnc, but I'm going to try what reboot suggested before I mess with those.

And manono, thank you for the explanation, at least I kind of understand now.

I've got tmpgenc running now, but I have to get to sleep, so thanks again everyone! Hopefully this is all enough to get a successful copy.

[guns1inger]

The convertxtodvd version didn't play on my player

What happened when you tried ?

I ask only because I have never had an unplayable disc out of it - although I don't burn with it, I burn with Imgburn 2 or Prassi ONES.

[Amzin]

What happened when you tried ?

I ask only because I have never had an unplayable disc out of it - although I don't burn with it, I burn with Imgburn 2 or Prassi ONES.

The player just sits there trying to read the disc forever, never is able to do it. It can be played on my Playstation 2 or PC, though. In fact, on those, the audio and video synced up perfectly from the convertxtodvd method. I'm not entirely sure whether the PS2 is able to play PAL dvd's, but I don't think so.
I've been using Nero Vision to burn, which apparently is part of the problem. Using the method reboot suggested, I ended with a set of VOB files that had synced up audio and video, and seems to be NTSC, but apparently my standalone dvd player can't play dvd's I burn with Nero. I played it on my Playstation2 and my PC-DVD player but the audio was slightly off. So I think I'll try to join the avi's, re-encode/auther them the same way again, and grab something else to use to burn. I've used WinAVI in the past and it worked fine, so I'll try that.

Thanks again for the help guys, looks like it's almost working now! My friend'll be so happy when she gets this.

[reboot]

Check your player's specs. It's possible it won't read +R or -R, or burned disks at all.
Try burning at 2x, or 4x, and make sure you select DVD video from the dropdown menu in Nero. Don't use Nerovision express.
Author using a good program, such as dvdlab, or tmpgenc dvd author. Nero's authoring prog sucks.
Winavi will simply reauthor the already authored vobs...not exactly what you want/need.

[FulciLives]

Sorry I got here a bit late huh?

To be safe you should change the GOP to 12 in TMPGEnc when following my guide. Perhaps that is something I need to add to that guide.

So in effect you want to do this:



This way you should avoid the GOP TOO LONG error message when following that guide of mine.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I just updated my guide to reflect this change.

[Amzin]

When I used TMPGEnc to encode it as ES, I did set the GOP P_Picture count to 3, as manono suggested, and that worked.

As far as the DVD player goes. . . I've burned a number of DVD's in the past that have played on it, same brand as I'm using now and same burner. The authoring itself worked fine (using DVDAuther GUI), I got VOB files that I tested using my computers dvd-playing software. It was the actual dvd copy that I made that was messed up.