120 Hours of Video

[Kolslaw1]

Hello Friends and Happy New Year!

I am negotiating a new project that will require videotaping, editing, compressing and putting on the web 120 hours of video.

This is by far the largest project I have attempted and I have many questions, but 1st how much hard drive space will i need for 120 hours of video?

The project will take place over three months, but I will need to access the video to fine tune the edits, as the first we deployment will be quite raw ie. 20 minute segments then will need to cleaned up over time?

Thanks in advance.
Kolslaw

[redwudz]

What format will the video be in and what format will your output be?

DV is about 13GB/Hr. Storage, even of the compressed video, will be a problem.

[Kolslaw1]

I am planning to use .wmv files as the output. As far as original video format has yet to be determined. I am looking at cameras right now. What are your thoughts?

[zoobie]

You'll also need your own server since this will probably take up several thousand mb's of space...even compressed as wmv's...depending on the amount of compression of course

[Kolslaw1]

Right now my thoughts are to pick of a Panasonic AG-HVX200 which has a video card as a storage device which should be used to plug into my compter or server if we get there. I found a 2 terabyte blade server for @ $1,700.00. Does this sound feasible to you or does anyone see the glaring whole that I have not thought of?

[redwudz]

I think you are on the right track. One problem is going to be the encoding time involved. There are a few hardware encoders, maybe to Divx, that may help. I don't think anything hardware encodes WMV. Software encoding might be more practical if you used more than one computer at a time.

If you end up with DV as a source, do some test encodes to see what format and what quality will work best for you for output. Try some short encodes of some representative video, maybe 10 minutes or so with different settings.

Once you have that figured out, you should know exactly what you want to do and how long the total encode might take. And you should have a general idea of the file space the finished video would occupy.

[solarfox]

Well, let's see. DV is about 3.5Mb/sec, so...

3.5Mbytes/sec * 60sec/min = 210Mbytes/min

210Mbytes/min * 60min/hr = 12,600Mbytes/hr = 12.6Gbytes/hr

12.6Gbytes/hr * 120hrs = 1,512Gbytes = 1.512Tbytes

(Note that I'm erring on the side of caution by using the base-10 "metric" divisions, like most of the hard drive manufacturers do to artificially inflate their drive sizes for marketing purposes, rather than using the proper base-2 divisions. )

So, a 2 Terabyte storage array ought to be about right for working with 120 hours of DV-encoded raw footage.

There are other codecs you could use to get the file size down, of course, but DV is really your best choice for this kind of thing since it's designed for frame-accurate editing and quick access to any arbitrary start and end point within the file, while codecs like MPEG, WMV, DivX, etc. are not.

[zoobie]

ha ha
now for the easy part...shooting 120 hours
shouldnt take too long...
you'd be amazed how fast a few years go by

[handyguy]

I remember seeing T drives on buy.com Costs a couple thousands.

[Cornucopia]

Assuming you digitize ONLY what you plan to use (which is RARE), you still have to frame-serve to your encoder, or you'll also need space for the EDITED versions of the files. Then, there's the space needed (locally) for the encoded WMV output (before it get's uploaded to your web server--you don't really think it's a good idea to use your orignal (only) WMV copies directly do you?).

SPACE, SPACE, SPACE
$$$, $$$, $$$

You are going about this the wrong way...
#1 In most video production houses, files are never stored ON-LINE/ON-CALL perpetually, so you would:

• Load in a segment
  Edit
  Save/Export a Master Segment
  Delete the Original Raw footage (saving tapes)
  Convert Master to Compressed copy(s)
  Archive Master to Tape/Disc
  Later, archive Compressed Copy(s) to Tape Disc

This is repeated for each project/segment, so the amount of stored, current footage is kept to an absolute minimum.
This requires good habits, and enough people to do both the jobs of videography of the new footage and the digitizing/archiving (>>>edit: and EDITING).

This could be a problem if it's just 1 person and deadlines are tight...

Also,
#2 You ought to work backwards from "What do my clients/audience want/need?" and figure out your codec choices, then a workflow, then equipment needs.
(>>>>edit: all this, while understanding the constraints of your and your clients' time and money budgets, and their quality expectations)

What kind of footage is this?
Who's going to see this?
Where'd this "magic number" of 120HOURS. come from?

Scott

[Kolslaw1]

This is going to be 28 four hour classes and it will be for students. The client is looking to get the rough courses available within a few days which as 12 twenty minutes segments. Once that task is completes the video will be edited with graphics and other media added to reinforce the lecture. My fear is there will be ongoing changes, so I was hoping to have the video ready to edit. I found the LaCie Biggest FW800 2 terabyte server with removable drives. I was hoping to just bill the client for their own drives.

[Cornucopia]

So you bill them for the "premium feature" of having everything always on-line. IIWY, I'd bill equipement costs up front so it doesn't have to come out of your pocket at all...

Good conservative estimate might be to just TRIPLE drive needs (=360hrs., at 13GB/hour = ~4.5TB) This would cover the raw files, edited master files, and compressed files.

For web server space, you'll need to pin down what format(s) you're going to output to (WMV? Flash? ...) and multiply 120hrs * AVG A+V bitrate of the formats * # formats.

This all ought to be hammered out ahead of time, as part of the budget and timetable.

Scott

[Kolslaw1]

For your knowledge the video will be embedded in a PowerPoint Producer presentation as a WMV file.

[Kolslaw1]

Cornucopia -
I apolgize but just confirming this means average audio bitrate + average video bitrate

AVG A+V bitrate of the formats * # formats

[Kolslaw1]

BTW Zoobie -

My client has an Assistant he likes to keep busy so he will be taping the 120 hours...at least that is their plan so far. Thank goodness!

[Cornucopia]

Cornucopia -
I apolgize but just confirming this means average audio bitrate + average video bitrate

AVG A+V bitrate of the formats * # formats

Yep, that's what I meant.

Sounds like your output would only be WMV.

Example:
Target = ~DVD quality
AVG bitrate --> ~2.5 Mbps (could be anywhere between 1Mbps--5Mbps)
(I said average, cuz you may want to use VBR, plus that includes aggragating if you were doing multiple formats)

If all material is at that level,
120Hours = 2.5 * 60 * 60 / 8 / 1024 = ~1.09GB (that's just for the WMV9 files, not Producer stuff, web pages, scripts, etc)

Scott

[Kolslaw1]

I am looking to purchase the Panasonic FS-100 FireStore to capture my video. The salesman siad it can store 7 hours of video and said the video file will be 13gb. Does this sound true to you guys?

[Cornucopia]

The FS-100 can store files in a number of ways, so the bitrate is determined by which way you're storing it (HD24p, HD1080i, SD-DVCPro50@60i, DV@60i, etc)

IF you are recording standard DV (720x480, 4:1:1, 5:1compression, 29.97fps aka 60i), you should be getting 13GB per Hour. Since the FS-100 holds 100GB, that is = 7.6x Hours. If you record 1 hour, you WILL be using up 13GB (may or may not be 1 file, depending on how you set it up).

Doesn't sound like he's BS-ing you, but he's giving you the most generous estimate (instead of the most conservative).

Scott

[edDV]

Just got here but is this contract separate from bandwidth charges? The client has unlimited bandwidth and you must just to supply a media server?

I've never heard of anybody serving at "DVD" quality except under private networks.

[Cornucopia]

Me either

[Kolslaw1]

The end product will not be serving in DVD quality. I was inquiring about capturing the video, editing and the crushing it for web deployment. Thank your your input.

BTW since I posted the question the salesman confirmed the 13GB an hour.

Thanks again.

[edDV]

Do you choose the compression for deployment? What is the extent of your contract?

They should spec deployment spec based on their server contract. That is where the big bucks hit.

Typical deployment is 150-600 Mb/s wmv.

[Kolslaw1]

I am creating wmv's. I just looked at one and it is 1315kbps.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Right now my thoughts are to pick of a Panasonic AG-HVX200 which has a video card as a storage device which should be used to plug into my compter or server if we get there.

Do you mean the P2 storage cards? They are memory cards that plug in to a PCMCIA slot - so if you are using a desktop computer, you'll need a PCMCIA adapter. The P2 cards typically come in 8GB. Do you plan to shoot standard DV? If so, you'll get about 40 minutes on one 8GB P2 card. The cards are also rather pricey!

Do you only intend to use one camera?

If you go a tape route, you'll need to, at some point, transfer that to the computer. That occurs in real-time. So you'll need another 120 hours to do that! Unless you have access to multiple camcorders in which case you can capture from multiple cams simultaneously with our Enosoft DV Processor. I captured 15 hours of safari video in 5 hours by hooking up three cams at the same time.

[edDV]

I am creating wmv's. I just looked at one and it is 1315kbps.

Sorry

I typed Mbps when I meant Kbps. I was editing another doc at the same time.

[edDV]

What type of acquisition are you doing? Classroom? Other?

The standard camcorder for this type of shooting* is the Sony VX2100 or PD170. These are available at one third the cost (used or new) compared to the HVX-200. They record DV to tape and transfer over IEEE-1394.

P2 cards will absorb your profit.

Buy 2x VX2000 or VX2100 and save half your capital. Good to have that second angle to cut to or as backup. Low light performance will likely be better.

*Low to medium light industrial auditoriums.

BTW: The Firestore FS-4 will save you many hours. Just back up to tape or a second camcorder during acquisition. It is bad trying to explain missing a shot.