MacWorld and "iTV"

[willrob]

MacWorld Expo is next week, and on Tuesday Steve Jobs is anticipated to fully explain the "iTV" he introduced last fall. The only hard info so far is a picture of the device—about the size of a firewire drive with lots of ports on the back— and the basic concept of streaming video, photos and music from your computer to your TV. There is also a lot of speculation that the iTunes store will start renting movies protected with DRM—watch once, without being able to store for repeat viewing.

The device has been reported to be in the $399 price range, but this seems kind of steep if all it does is stream data. So I'm guessing an iTunes movie store renting films is an essential part of the plan. As video aficionados, what price would you be willing to pay for a movie on demand?

I think it has to be pretty low—cheaper than Netflix—especially since the device costs so much. My guess is $1.99 might be a figure that would lure the prospective market (DSL modem users with an interest and investment in the home theater experience). Apple's high quality Quicktime compression would be expected for near DVD quality. And of course a library of films that go beyond the current Disney listings.

[Expanderz]

Can't wait to see what Steevo has in stores for us this time! 8)

[ssj2_goha]

Actually the price point was said to be $299. It also it to have a internal Hard Dive and a stripped down version osX as well as a frontrow type interface.

[terryj]

Correct ssj.
It was TWIT or one of the other tech podcasts I heard that speculates that the interface will work like this:

iTV connected to TV.
Mac somewhere in room, running iTunes 8 ( yes, 8)
You purchase from iTunes 8, for price point
(won't be less than $9.95, due to Studio's refusal
to recognize structured pricing for content, and
their not wanting to piss off Target and Walmart again.)
You stream it to the iTV box, which then caches it
on its 80gb HD, along with a DRM file, that enables timed viewing. ( sensitive to say 72 hours, after which it locks
the file).

Remember, the Movie studios aren't hurting like the Music
Companies. And DVD ( whether SD or HD) has some shelf life
left...So as long as they can get $19.95 for a 2 disc DVD,
why shouldn't the consumer be willing to pay $9 to $14 for
a MOVIE ONLY download in their minds?
Look at CinemaNow, Unbox, and Movielink...

The best model, if ALL CONSUMERS WOULD STAND UP AND
VOTE WITH THEIR DOLLARS, would be:
2 disc movies @$19
Single Disc movies at $10
Movie Disc Rentals at $4
Movie Only Downloads at $1.95

sure it would strip content down, but it would send a clear
message to the studios WHAT THE CONSUMERS WANT.
In many cases I've passed up 2 disc Special Editions for
the Movie Only Single disc, because that's all I wanted to watch.

[willrob]

Yes the price was suggested to be $299.

I can't see many of these selling at any price if it costs $9.95 to download a movie you can view once. That could be a purchase price, saving the studios from have to produce the disc and packaging and distribution. Since it has to compete with Movie On Demand from cable, and the HBO like cable services, I think the price has to really come down from that figure. Netflix would be a better choice—cheaper, 60,000 movies, ease of check out/return.

Otherwise iTV just becomes Airport Express AV.

[AntnyMD]

Movie rentals by download have to be competitively priced with cable On Demand. Otherwise I already have what iTV promises to propose, via my cable box.

Furthermore, since I already pay for HBO, Showtime, etc, I get a lot of their movies _at no additional cost_ AND _in high definition_.

Oftentimes, when a broadcast network sells repeats On Demand for 99 cents per 24-hour viewing window, they offer the same episode _for free_ in high definition On Demand.

Whats more, since I also own a Canopus ADVC box, I can make a standard definition copy of that On Demand high definition content at a quality equal to or better than a commercial DVD. The only thing I "suffer" is lack of OAR on most movies.

iTV has to, at a minimum, significantly enhance what I already have.

[ssj2_goha]

iTunes don't do movie rentals the price is for the full movie, that you can play on up to 5 computers, unlimited iPods, and on probably unlimited iTV's once it comes out. The other thing is you can "subscribe" to alot of the TV shows on the iTunes store, so as soon as a new episode is released it is automatically downloaded. So it seems the iTV is really useful in my opinion. I know I will be buying at least one, probably Two.

[AntnyMD]

iTunes don't do movie rentals the price is for the full movie,

We're all speculating here about a possible change in Apple's business model around movie downloads.

I anticipate a change in this area. Remember when Apple actually gave away free music with iTunes? They sell it now for 99 cents per track. Remember when Apple used to serve up music videos in the Store for free? Now they're $1.99. Remember when Apple wouldn't let you burn DVDs from iDVD unless you had an internal SuperDrive. Now you don't need one.

Apple does change its mind.

[ssj2_goha]

iTunes don't do movie rentals the price is for the full movie,

We're all speculating here about a possible change in Apple's business model around movie downloads.

I anticipate a change in this area. Remember when Apple actually gave away free music with iTunes? They sell it now for 99 cents per track. Remember when Apple used to serve up music videos in the Store for free? Now they're $1.99. Remember when Apple wouldn't let you burn DVDs from iDVD unless you had an internal SuperDrive. Now you don't need one.

Apple does change its mind.

When did Apple give Away music? that i don't remember....... But I don't see Steve J. changing his mind when it comes to the Movie downloads. To date the iTunes store has sold over 100,000 movies. When the Music labels wanted to change the pricing for the music last year Steve wouldn't budge. I just don't see him changing his mind anytime soon when sales per month are still increasing from one month to the next month.

[AntnyMD]

I recall when I got my first iMac back in 2000 or 2001 that when you booted up the computer and launched iTunes, your library had about 250 free songs in it.

Steve J. already gave in to variable pricing on movies ... New releases cost more, older movies are $9.99.

Music used to be priced at all albums were $9.99 .. Now there is variable pricing for some new releases ... I remember Beyoncé's first album was a whopping $17.99 in its first couple of weeks of release -- outrageously expensive since it was $11.99 at Circuit City!

[ssj2_goha]

OK sorry after rereadin what i wrote I miss spoke on what i meant.... I mean i don't see Steve J. having a rental plan on iTunes. He has said in alot of interviews that people don't want to rent, they want to own their media. Thats why they don't have subscriptions to Music like some other online music stores.

[AntnyMD]

I see what you're saying. Steve is crazy if he thinks people arent into movie rentals. Hasnt he heard of Netflix?

[terryj]

or heaven forbid, Blockbuster Total Access,
now that they are running commericals once every hour.

The fact is at least with Disney as a share holder,
he has some leverage.
But without getting Parmount and Warner's
on board, he'll never convince Fox and Sony (were the
majority of last year's overall DVD sales per volume came from),
to even AGREE to movie downloads.

Mark my words, he'll probably announce a deal with
WB or Parmount next week, meaning we'll have
more than just Disney to choose from.
But, it will still be FAR and AWAY from
what the consumer expects as far as pricing structure,
we got at least 1-3 years before the studios cave in to that.

[sjk]

Actually the price point was said to be $299.

That's true.

It also it to have a internal Hard Dive and a stripped down version osX as well as a frontrow type interface.

That's only rumor and speculation since Apple hasn't announced any final product specifications or even its non-iTV name.

[willrob]

It still seams pricey to me if yo can't rent movies on demand. Not many people want to buy a movie they can watch once, or perhaps burn to a DVD on their own. It's either a shiny disc with bookshelf case with colorful graphics, or it's a watch the damn thing and forget about it Quicktime compressed inexpensive version

[willrob]

Studios Approve CSS system for movie copying to DVD

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/01/04/movie.downloading.ap/index.html

[Case]

"Consumers will need new blank DVDs and compatible DVD burners to use it."
And that's why it won't be the instant hit that it could be.

[ssj2_goha]

Alot of people are saying about downloading a video then burning it to disc. Me i'm do the exact oposite.... Ripping every single dvd i own then putting the disc in storage. My 1TB Hd take up a whole lot less room than my 600+ dvd collection. And when i Get the iTv i will be able to browse through my library with ease. So i really don't understand why people would want to burn the videos to disc. it just seems like a waste of space.

[GMaq]

Hi,
I agree with the previous poster, even with having a Video iPod the whole disc concept of burning discs is redundant, with the recent improvements and firmware updates the Video quality is far above what squeezing DivX on to CD-Rs was, I've probably burned less than 10 DVD's this year, If you have iTV (or any of the host of Media Players that are already available) in your home and an iPod in your pocket that will plug in to virtually any TV on the planet, burning DVD's is soon going to seem pretty Old Skool. It's just another example of the old "People don't Know what they Like, They Like what they Know", as these new devices prove themselves people will adapt at their own comfort level.

[ssj2_goha]

Thank you for saying it better than i ever could.

[GMaq]

Anyone who has tried using Quicktime (in a Windows Environment) will tell you that Apple has never had much interest in MPEG-2 in general !!. If you are stuck on MPEG-2 and DVD Burning (which IS universally proven) then the whole Apple trip is going to be frustrating and foreign to you. They offer an alternative to the MPEG-2 Status Quo that has much greater future potential, the price for admission is having to learn to think in a new way, and leave (or convert) what you already have.

[willrob]

More of the TiVo possibility:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2357

[terryj]

looks like I was somewhat right:
Paramount Coming to iTunes

[terryj]

Anyone else disappointed by this Keynote?


In any capacity, the AppleTV ( as it is now known)
looks to be a necessary component, if all your
media is :

a. bought from iTunes
b. and/or stored on your mac/pc only
c. is if you are into the whole "Make my mac a media center PC"
kind of mod.

A mini, an Apple TV and there you go.
Movie Theater Mac.

Still waiting for something more worthwhile myself....

[videopoo]

DVDs are not going anywhere. . Remember most people in the world don't own iPods or know how to do conversions anyway - They have DVD players. In addition I believe most like the interactivity and all the extras you recieve with a disc. Something only a DVD can deliver...for now.

I think Sonic Solution's as something here. Think of a Kiosk where you can burn any movie you want and think of the shelve space it can save. Imagine going to a site and downloading any disc you'd like. It's great for the consumer and great for content owners and distributors.

I'd love to see iTV and the iPod/Phone have the same interactive feature of a DVD - this might change things a liitle. But then again your battling a well intrenched set top player base.

Good luck trying to get people to think in a different way.

[terryj]

additional info:

Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile

no Divx or 3ivx or xvid support.

Hmm, I'm wondering if the next QT in Leopard will support
the AppleTV.

QT Pro Player using Divx/3IVX/XVID inan avi out to Apple TV....?

a thought, but since it is only STREAMING the media, it still doesn't do me a bit of good.

STREAMING & Owning your Media...Did Steve miss something?
Yes....

[sjk]

no Divx or 3ivx or xvid support.

And no MPEG-2. Does that mean Apple TV won't handle mux'd EyeTV MPEG-2 playback (for example) even though QuickTime/iTunes can? Apple TV would be a downgrade from EyeHome for EyeTV recordings if it required they be exported as H.264 for playback. Sad.

[willrob]

From a post at xcelerateyourmac.com

Reader comments on AppleTV limited Video Format support - A reader sent a mail regarding the AppleTV Video format support:

" Based on the specs released so far, Apple TV is a big disappointment for the following reasons:

1.) Only H.264 decoding. This locks out MPEG2 (EyeTV recordings, DVD VOB, etc.) without a slow and burdensome recoding.
(AppleTV specs page lists "Video formats supported: H.264 and protected H.264 (from iTunes Store): 640 by 480, 30 fps, LC version of Baseline Profile; 320 by 240, 30 fps, Baseline profile up to Level 1.3; 1280 by 720, 24 fps, Progressive Main Profile. MPEG-4: 640 by 480, 30 fps, Simple Profile")

2.) Although it will output to a 1080i display, it only supports H.264 up to 720p 24fps. This locks out many MPEG2 recorded HDTV sources even if you are willing to convert them to H.264 or MPEG-4, unless you are willing to perform a frame rate conversion (Mpeg Streamclip can do this, but slowly). The conversion from 1080i to 720p, then finally displayed at 1080i with an internal conversion, will undoubtedly cause a drop in quality.

3.) What happened to standards compliance? No mention of uPnP in the specs.

There are better boxes out there (D-Link 520, and a company that starts with Z that I can't remember) that are standards compliant and natively decode 1080i MPEG2 and DivX, and at a lower street price point. But no doubt, they will have clunky and buggy interfaces. EyeConnect will feed these boxes from a Mac.
Some EyeTV units can record in MPEG-4, but most people record in MPEG2 to be "DVD-ready." And the EyeTV 500 just captures the native DTV MPEG2 stream.
Thanks. - Paul

[AntnyMD]

no Divx or 3ivx or xvid support.

And no MPEG-2. Does that mean Apple TV won't handle mux'd EyeTV MPEG-2 playback (for example) even though QuickTime/iTunes can? Apple TV would be a downgrade from EyeHome for EyeTV recordings if it required they be exported as H.264 for playback. Sad.

Regular MPEG4 (H.263) is 3ivx. You can play 3ivx on video iPods now. However, you cant make 3ivx videos on Intel Macs, only G3, G4, and G5 machines. It probably wont support Divx ever, but maybe Xvid.

The decoder chip in Apple TV is likely to completely prohibit MPEG2 video, just like iTunes prevents syncing of MPEG1 and MPEG2 video to iPod. This is a huge minus to Apple TV, even though I preordered one today.

[GMaq]

Hi,
iPods will play 3ivX in a mp4 or Mov Container, They will play DivX, XviD and Nero Digital in an Mp4 Container no problem. Are you sure the specs don't mean those Codecs in their native AVI containers? If iTV doesn't handle anything and everything that the iPod will then it's going to really piss people off!! I have a D-Link DSM-320 that handles everything BUT H.264, I sure hope iTV would handle all my existing mp4 library + H.264.