MacWorld and "iTV"

[terryj]

Hi,
iPods will play 3ivX in a mp4 or Mov Container, They will play DivX, XviD and Nero Digital in an Mp4 Container no problem. Are you sure the specs don't mean those Codecs in their native AVI containers? If iTV doesn't handle anything and everything that the iPod will then it's going to really piss people off!! I have a D-Link DSM-320 that handles everything BUT H.264, I sure hope iTV would handle all my existing mp4 library + H.264.

I'd like to think that if you have the codecs in your Quicktime folder,
it should handle it. But we see it won't handle Mpeg-2, even if
you have the Mpeg-2 codec.

This is a HUGE waste...I predict it and the iPhone will have ...growing pains,
but will sell, not just in the numbers Steve would like.

And I squarely blame the MPAA for their chicken sh!t attitude that everything
has to be DRM'd, on in the most now lockable format they can control.

[sjk]

The decoder chip in Apple TV is likely to completely prohibit MPEG2 video, just like iTunes prevents syncing of MPEG1 and MPEG2 video to iPod. This is a huge minus to Apple TV, even though I preordered one today.

I was thinking of replacing my recently deceased EyeHome with Apple TV but I'm not sure it's possible because of its TV compatibility. Apple TV - Tech Specs claims:

Enhanced-definition or high-definition widescreen TVs capable of 1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz

I've still got SDTV and analog cable. Upgrading to HDTV isn't even on my radar yet. So maybe I'll just end up*with a used EyeHome, though the eBay prices have been increasing. As clunky as the UI is it has an advantage over Apple TV of compatibility with my EyeTV recordings and ripped MPEG-2 DVDs, but no H.264 support.

[ssj2_goha]

Why are people surprised AppleTV doesn't support mpeg2? iTunes never supported mpeg2 and the AppleTV syncs with iTunes so of course no mpeg2. And why (other than dvds) would you want to store LARGE mpeg2 files when you can get ALOT of converting software to convert it to the "iTunes" format. Those files are much smaller with the same quality. And to address the "missing" DVD function do you really want a DVD player built into it so you have a second (or third....fourth) DVD player hooked up to your TV. Now yeah I agree that it probably should have the option of connecting to SDTV's, but lets face it SDTV is on the way out and Apple INC. is looking to set the standard for the future like it did with the iPod.

[willrob]

But will it get SCTV?

[sjk]

Why are people surprised AppleTV doesn't support mpeg2?

Maybe not surprised, just disappointed.

iTunes never supported mpeg2 and the AppleTV syncs with iTunes so of course no mpeg2.

What's your definition of "supported"? Did you read what I posted earlier?

Does that mean Apple TV won't handle mux'd EyeTV MPEG-2 playback (for example) even though QuickTime/iTunes can?

MPEG-2 transport streams recorded with EyeTV 200 can be exported as MPEG-2 program streams which can be played with QuickTime, iTunes, and other QT-compatible apps. Maybe that's because the EyeTV MPEG Support component being installed but I can't check right now.

And why (other than dvds) would you want to store LARGE mpeg2 files when you can get ALOT of converting software to convert it to the "iTunes" format.

Did you read Paul's comment from xlr8yourmac that willrob posted?

Some EyeTV units can record in MPEG-4, but most people record in MPEG2 to be "DVD-ready." And the EyeTV 500 just captures the native DTV MPEG2 stream.

Is it hard to understand that some of us are objecting to a commonly used EyeTV format, MPEG-2, apparently being incompatible with Apple TV? Surely they were aware of Elgato Systems discontinuing EyeHome, one of the few "Mac friendly" products available for A/V streaming.

If the point isn't obvious by now:

What if Apple had limited the iPod to AAC format, essentially telling customers it wouldn't play their legally obtained/owned MP3 collections (without inconvenient, time-consuming, quality-losing transcoding)? Analogously, Apple would cripple Apple TV (and apparently has) for customers with legitimate MPEG-2 recordings, e.g. from EyeTV.

And that's a genuine reason for some of us who were initially excited by the original "iTV" announcement to disappointed when seeing Apple TV's specs after yesterday's product launch.

Those files are much smaller with the same quality.

Smaller, yes. Same quality, no.

Transcoding MPEG-2 to H.264 on a 1.25GHz eMac (my current EyeTV "DVR" system) is slow. Time and convenience are more important to me than saving disk space, especially for EyeTV recordings I'll just delete after watching. As mentioned in Paul's quote, MPEG-2 is "DVD-ready" if I want to burn it as DVD-Video.

And to address the "missing" DVD function do you really want a DVD player built into it so you have a second (or third....fourth) DVD player hooked up to your TV.

I don't, but can understand how other people might want one… whether or not I disagree with their reasons is irrelevant.

Now yeah I agree that it probably should have the option of connecting to SDTV's, but lets face it SDTV is on the way out and Apple INC. is looking to set the standard for the future like it did with the iPod.

Misplaced analogy, IMO. What standard has the iPod set at the expense of backwards compatibility?

Apple seems to have chosen a questionable path with Apple TV (based on what I know of it so far) into the HD future -- almost like it's neither good or bad enough. It's not hard to see why the iPod doesn't support a proprietary like WMA (or even MPEG-1/2 video), but I'm struggling with reasons for Apple TV's lack of MPEG-2 and SDTV support (AFAWK). Without a cost-effective H.264-based DVR solution who's benefitting by omitting MPEG-2 right now?

I get the feeling Apple is trying to force more Apple TV content originate from iTS than they've done with iPod content, which I strongly object to if indeed it's true regardless of any influence the MPAA may have had. To make the final comparison, iPod is "open enough" for me (if I owned one; only my wife does) whereas Apple TV is definitely "too closed" (which I'm*happy to be proven wrong about).

[AntnyMD]

After thinking about Apple TV's publicly stated supported formats, I'm now of the opinion that we shouldnt assume MPEG2 won't be supported.

The video iPod specs, for example, do not state its compatibility with 720x480 MPEG4 (h.263) yet it can play it. Back when officially it only supported video resolution of 320x240 (h.264) and 480x480 (h.263), you could in fact play back 640x480 and 640x360 (h.263).

Yes, Apple wants to sell you video you probably already own. It doesnt necessarily mean they won't allow you to play video you already own.

We'll have to wait and see.

[willrob]

You are hereby authorized to buy one and to test it for us.

[AntnyMD]

I preordered Each of you give me $5 to cover costs!

[willrob]

More morsels of info:

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/10/apple_tv_device_does.html

[sjk]

After thinking about Apple TV's publicly stated supported formats, I'm now of the opinion that we shouldnt assume MPEG2 won't be supported.

Nor assume that it will.

The video iPod specs, for example, do not state its compatibility with 720x480 MPEG4 (h.263) yet it can play it. Back when officially it only supported video resolution of 320x240 (h.264) and 480x480 (h.263), you could in fact play back 640x480 and 640x360 (h.263).

A difference is that MPEG-4 is mentioned in the current iPod specs while MPEG-2 (and AC3/DTS audio) is omitted in Apple TV specs (and AC3/DTS audio). But I'd be surprised if ATV won't support at least 5.1 Dolby Digital through the optical TOSLINK. Heck, even EyeHome support that… and DTS.

Yes, Apple wants to sell you video you probably already own. It doesnt necessarily mean they won't allow you to play video you already own.

We'll have to wait and see.

Yep. And more information about the hardware architecture might give us more clues about the possibility of firmware upgrades for additional codecs. Regardless of that, lack of SDTV support may be the deal breaker for me.

[AntnyMD]

All I'm saying is unlisted support should be expected -- but specifically what that is will have to wait until consumers get their hands on actual settop boxes.

Just like that USB port being for "diagnostic" purposes. We'll have to wait to see what happens when you hook up an external hard drive to it.

[sjk]

Right, although some informed questioning and speculation based on what we know so far is reasonable and expected.

I really appreciate the low noise of this discussion compared to the endless "ATV doesn't have a DVR or a DVD burner or do blah blah blah" redundancy elsewhere! How many whiny forum users does it take to make a point?

And hook an iPod to it. Surely someone at Macworld's done that by now.

[sjk]

From Ars at Macworld: Questions about the AppleTV:

Jacqui: Is the USB 2.0 for external storage?
Apple Employee: No. You cannot add external storage to the AppleTV. The USB port is there solely for service reasons.

Mmkay. That doesn't exclude ways to hack it for as-yet-unknown purposes.

This one's more personally interesting:

Jacqui: Is this HDTV only? Does it just scale down if hooked up to a regular TV?
Apple Employee: Yes, HDTV only. Yes, it just scales down on a regular TV.

"Regular TV", as in as 480i (SDTV), contradicting the product specs on Apple's site?

Jacqui: What about DivX support?
Apple Employee: The AppleTV will play anything that the iPod plays. The iPod doesn't support DivX, so neither does the AppleTV.

That's more in line with my expectations than the apparent "anything that iTunes plays" misinformation floating around, combined with:

Jacqui: Can it open VIDEO_TS files? Like from ripped DVDs?
Apple Employee: The AppleTV will play anything that the iPod plays.

Jacqui: So, no VIDEO_TS then.
Apple Employee: No.

Anyway, I'm remaining skeptical about what is/isn't possible until I've had a chance to try it myself or have more definitive evidence from trusted sources.

[sjk]

As anticipated:

Can EyeTV work with the new Apple TV device?

[terryj]

From Ars at Macworld: Questions about the AppleTV:

Jacqui: What about DivX support?
Apple Employee: The AppleTV will play anything that the iPod plays. The iPod doesn't support DivX, so neither does the AppleTV.

That's more in line with my expectations than the apparent "anything that iTunes plays" misinformation floating around, combined with:

Jacqui: Can it open VIDEO_TS files? Like from ripped DVDs?
Apple Employee: The AppleTV will play anything that the iPod plays.

Jacqui: So, no VIDEO_TS then.
Apple Employee: No.

Anyway, I'm remaining skeptical about what is/isn't possible until I've had a chance to try it myself or have more definitive evidence from trusted sources.

that right there saves me $299.

[sjk]

480i incompatibility will save me the $299 regardless of any video format issues. I'm still open to the possibility of the current published specs being conservatively inaccurate and that 480i will actually work with ATV, but Apple isn't wanting to encourage and/or officially support that configuration.

Maybe you've noticed Apple's been advertising ATV with an "If it's on iTunes, it's on TV." pitch. I bet that fools a few people into buying one thinking it'll be compatible with everything in their iTunes libraries rather than the iTunes Store.

Wouldn't surprise me if later Apple wants people to pay for "enablers" that uncripple it.

[ssj2_goha]

From Ars at Macworld: Questions about the AppleTV:

Jacqui: What about DivX support?
Apple Employee: The AppleTV will play anything that the iPod plays. The iPod doesn't support DivX, so neither does the AppleTV.

That's more in line with my expectations than the apparent "anything that iTunes plays" misinformation floating around, combined with:

Jacqui: Can it open VIDEO_TS files? Like from ripped DVDs?
Apple Employee: The AppleTV will play anything that the iPod plays.

Jacqui: So, no VIDEO_TS then.
Apple Employee: No.

Anyway, I'm remaining skeptical about what is/isn't possible until I've had a chance to try it myself or have more definitive evidence from trusted sources.

that right there saves me $299.

Actually Divx is mpeg-4 witch the iPod does play it just don't play avi files. And it's fairly clear the quote "if the iPod plays it so will the AppleTV" means those of us that have alot of stuff we have ripped into out iTunes library will indeed play on the Apple tv. Even during the keynote stuff that is not on the iTunes store was being played on the Apple tv (specifically Beatles stuff). But i will be getting one and will report what does and does not work.

[sjk]

What method do you use to get DivX MPEG-4 out of an AVI container into iTunes?

[ssj2_goha]

try searching avi to mp4 in the tools section, i say this because i don't really do much avi to mp4 i mostly rip dvds to mp4. And all I encode in is h.264. But i do know it is possible to do and it does work in iTunes. In fact mpeg-4 rulesa are more lax than the h.264 rules for playing on iPod.

[GMaq]

@sjk,
I don't have a Mac solution for you, in Windows I use YAMB to de-multiplex my DivX AVI's then I use dbPowerAmp with it's FAAC encoder plug-in to convert the audio only and finally use YAMB to re-multiplex the files into an .mp4 container. IF there are no B frames in the original DivX, they playback just fine on the iPod, however be advised that most DivX AVI's have been encoded with B-Frames in which case iTunes will load them and Sync them to an iPod but they will not playback, the same goes for XviD with B Frames present.

[sjk]

Thanks for the info.