Some compatibility questions about high bitrate XVCD

[CasualObserver]

Since this is my first post ever on VideoHelp and I am posting in this forum, it should be pretty obvious that I claim no level of expertise on this subject. However, before asking questions, I do try to research the topic, so hopefully I am asking "the right questions".

To give you an idea of my limited experience, I have made a few simple VCDs (which are playable on my Samsung DVD player) using the free version of TMPGEnc and old version of Nero. Usually, my input videos are good quality AVI and I am moderately familiar with the basic functions of VirtualDub. Anyways, over time, I have become mildly dissatisfied with the video quality on a VCD, in particular, I find the macroblocking annoying. So, I found the following excerpt from

http://digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/convert/tmpgenc/tmpgenc.htm

by lordsmurf quite interesting:

MPEG-1 Encoding Guide
The settings for MPEG-1 are not much different than the settings for MPEG-2. When making VCD, the main differences are in the resolution and bit-rate found on the VIDEO tab.
Video settings. VCD has strict standards on MPEG-1 files. They are 352x240 at 1150k bit-rate. Changing this creates and out-of-spec XVCD that may or may not play or your player.
Note: Most players do support the 1856k DVD MPEG-1 format on CD as well. Using up to 1856 bit-rate results in superior quality at that resolution in this format. This will prevent motion problems and macroblocking as is common of the 1150k VCD video.

Now, I want to make it clear that I hold no illusions that I will get DVD quality video using a high bitrate XVCD - I know I won't. I merely wish to reduce the macroblocking without having to upgrade to MPEG2 encoding and without having to purchase a DVD burner. My priorities may change in the future, but for the moment, I've made up my mind that XVCD is the way to go. So, here are my questions:

1. The digitalfaq document I mentioned above says to use a bitrate of 1856 whereas in the following thread,

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1123768

mats.hogberg states to have a bitrate no higher than 1850. Obviously, from a quality standpoint, there is essentially no difference. But, from a compatiblity standpoint and keeping in mind that someday I may wish to transfer the data to DVD, does it matter which bitrate I use?

2. I know that audio for a VCD is 44.1Hz, whereas for a DVD, it is 48Hz. Assuming that my DVD player can handle the non-standard (for a VCD) video, is using the 48Hz audio setting likely to impact the ability of my DVD player to play my XVCD?

3. The digitalfaq document also suggests a GOP Structure of IBBPBBPBBP for DVDs and indicates that this structure should also be used for VCDs. Since this is not the default structure for TMPGEnc, should I change it to the one recommended?

4. This last question is more of a curiousity item, not critical to know. In the abovementioned videohelp thread, it is estimated that such an XVCD could hold about 49 minutes, whereas the doom9 bitrate calculator estimates about 46 minutes. Which estimate is more accurate?

It may be a week before I have time enough to experiment with burning my first XVCD, so there's no rush on posting the answers. Thanks in advance to whoever answers my questions.

[FulciLives]

I know I know ... this isn't what you want to hear ... but you just need to get a DVD burner.

A quality DVD burner can be bought on-line for around $40 + shipping and DVD-R discs are very cheap these days. I was just at BEST BUY today and they had a 50 pack of Verbatim 16x DVD-R discs (one of the best brands) for all of $12.99 + sales tax.

As for being concerned with the price of software you can use HCenc as your MPEG-2 encoder ... it is freeware. You can use ffmpegGUI for your AC-3 encoder ... it is freeware. For DVD authoring there are several freeware options such as Muxman or DVDauthorGUI or GUI for dvdauthor etc.

So software wise you really don't need to spend any money.

All you need is the DVD burner (which you can install yourself) and some DVD-R discs.

So if you run out to BEST BUY before next Sunday you can get 50 DVD-R discs for $12.99 and I just checked and right now BEST BUY also has the Pioneer DVD burner on sale for only $39.99 so for the grand total of $52.98 + sales tax you are good to go! In fact BEST BUY is offering FREE SHIPPING right now (although I think that is only for on-line orders placed on 12/18/2006 and 12/19/2006).

You will be SO happy if you do this!

Link to the Pioneer DVD burner at BEST BUY: CLICK HERE

Line to the Verbatim 16x DVD-R discs at BEST BUY: CLICK HERE

VCD is a suck ass format and trust me when I say that XVCD is not much better IF you can even get it to work and that is a big IF.

The other option? Buy a Philips DVP-5140 at WALMART for $49 and change. This is a DVD player that is capable of playing DivX and XviD files. You just burn the files to a CD-R or DVD-R and it will play them. Well it doesn't play all DivX/XviD files (depends on how they were made) but it plays most of them A-OK and for the few it has trouble with you can always re-encode them to a new DivX/XviD using autoGK (again freeware) and that will make them work A-OK on the Philips DVP-5140.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[guns1inger]

Most people play around with XVCD in order to put more running time on a disc, and therefore use lower bitrates. If you want to use higher bitrates, why not look at SVCD ? That is what is was designed for.

That said, I agree with John. VCD and SVCD are dead formats used only by die-hards who still have a spectrum computer hooked up to their old TV because "they just don't make games like that anymore"

There is a very strong and ever improving range of free software to allow for DVD creation at not cost to you beyond the initial purchase of a burner, and plenty of help here on how to do it.

[CasualObserver]

FulciLives, guns1inger: Thank you for the advice.

To any MOD: Please move this thread to the (S)VCD Authoring forum.

Even though the above responses did not contain the information I had requested, I decided to experiment and burn the XVCD anyways. I used 1856 for the video, with the VOB structure suggested on digitalfaq and 44.1 (224) for the audio. Incidentally, using those settings allows approximately 52 minutes of video on a disk. The disk plays fine on the cd-burner it was created on. It will play on my standalone DVD player, but there is obvious video and audio stuttering. I suspect that the cause of the stuttering is the higher than normal bitrate, but I am wondering if there is any possiblility that the cause of the stuttering is the modified VOB structure?

[mats.hogberg]

It may be caused by a too high bitrate - the player can't read data off the CD at the needed rate. OTOH, if it supports the full SVCD specs, it should be able to sustain a 2600 kbps read rate from CD, which suggests something else is wrong.
If I was you, I'd go for 48 kHz audio even as VCD. Since you're already breaking all the rules, why not go ahead and make the transition to DVD (I think you'll go there sooner than you think! ) as smooth as possible?
Also, I've never heard any problems using a 100% VCD compatible mpg (I'm thinking about your GOP structure) so try the TMPGEnc default.

/Mats

[jman98]

CasualObserver - Welcome to the forums. It's incorrect and possibly confusing for you to use the term "VOB" when referring to XVCD. VOB is a DVD only term. What you really mean to talk about it would seem to be GOP.

The modified GOP should not be the cause of your stuttering. While a 10 frame GOP might in theory make marginal improvements in the video quality, it will increase the size of the video file. I'd advise sticking to 15 frame GOPs. Most likely the high bitrate is the cause of your stuttering and I'd blame it on some sort of issue with your standalone.

I've found that in the USA most people who stick with VCD are completely unaware of how cheap DVD writers are now. One of my friends recently bought one and he told me that he delayed for years because he thought they still cost over $200. You might also be afraid to have to learn how to do DVD when you've mastered the art of making VCDs. I've seen that too. I would advise you to strongly consider buying a DVD writer and bite the bullet and learn how to make DVDs instead. The price of blank DVDs is not much more than VCDs and what you save in pennies on the blank CD prices you will more than lose in having to use more of them than a DVD disc because their capacity is so much lower.

If you simply MUST make (X)VCDs and can't be talked out of it, send me a private message with your email address and when I get home I will mail you a template for TMPGenc that I found that can provide marginal improvements in VCD encoding. Don't expect wonders, but I think it can help a little. Only a little.

Your bitrate DOES matter because DVD will not allow MPEG-1 video at greater than 1850 kbps. Finally, the difference between the 49 and 46 minute bitrate calculation estimates is probably because the 49 minute estimate incorrectly uses 1000 as the size of a kb when it should be 1024.

[lordsmurf]

I suggest using CVD (SVCD, but with 352x480 resolution) instead of VCD or SVCD. Keep it at DVD specs, with 48kHz 224k audio (MPEG Layer II, MP2) and 2000k video bitrate. You'll get maybe 40 minutes on a disc.

But it'll look a lot better.

Then again, a new burner only runs $30-40 on sale. Blank DVDs are often cheaper than blank CDs. And software is not really an issue, with low-cost or no-cost options existing. (Authorware is the real sticker, and I like TDA or SVCD2DVD for low-cost authoring option, everything else can be done for free).

Good luck.

[GMaq]

Hi,
I also got my schoolin' from lordsmurf and made dozens of xVCD's and DVD's with the TMPGEnc 1856kbps MPEG-1, Contrary to popular belief I think some of them still look better than some MPEG-4 files I've done but I digress, Pretty much any player I've had that will play VCDs would handle these xVCD's no problem, do you have access to another DVD Player to try these on? just to make sure yours isn't on the way out? You will definitely want to set TMPGEnc for Closed GOP's of 18 frames or less though and dropping your Audio bitrate to 192 or even 160 should give a tiny bit more space with no noticeable quality loss. Most MPEG Audio Decoders on standalone DVD players aren't picky about MPEG Layer 2 Audio over 96kbps. CVD and SVCD are capable of good results but have less standalone player compatibility, especially CVD.

[FulciLives]

I played around with CVD for a while before getting a DVD burner. I used TMPGEnc Plus back then and if I recall I used the DVD template but used 352x480 and kept the video and audio bitrates to SVCD standards except I used 48k for the audio. As I recall I used 16-bit 48k 224kbps MP2 Stereo audio with a video bitrate of 2200kbps for a total of 2424kbps combined ... I wanted to be sure not to get "too close" to the SVCD bitrate limit (which is 2520kbps or something like that).

The CD-R discs I used played back on a variety of DVD players including a Pioneer that would do VCD but not SVCD yet had no problem at all with the CVD format.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman