I've got audio sync problems (too)

[gigantibyte]

Audio sync problems seem to be common, and there are certainly plenty of answers. However, maybe someone can tailor a solution to my situation, or point me the appropriate forum thread.

I record shows on my DVR (in MPEG2 mode), and then transfer the .vob files to my PC. The .vob files have PCM audio. I was having audio sync problems when encoding the .vob files to Xvid using Virtualdub-MPEG2 or VirtualdubMOD, so I tried using Gordian Knot. Now the resulting AVIs (with the audio encoded to mp3) are perfectly in sync.

My problem is, that even though I cut out the commercials on my DVR before transfer, there is still bits of video (parts of the commercials) that need to be removed. With most AVIs, I can open them in Virtualdub, set video and audio to direct stream copy, delete the unwanted segments, then save a new avi. However, when I try to do this with a Gordian Knot encoded AVI file, the edited AVI video goes out of sync the audio.

I am willing to entertain any solution (using other software too), but I'm looking for something simple if possible. Can anyone help?

[redwudz]

With VDM are you cutting on the keyframes? VDM does that by using the little 'key' icon for jumping between keyframes. The default keyframe span with the Xvid codec is every 300 frames. If your video is 29.970 fps, you may see the problem. Put your Xvid in VDM and start clicking the keyframe icon and you will see the keyframe span.

You can't do frame accurate editing anywhere you want, unless you re-encode the video. That's the problem with using a highly compressed video format like Xvid. If you want frame accurate edits, a codec like DV has a keyframe on every frame and you can trim down to a single frame accuracy. If you just do cuts anywhere with an average Xvid, that may be the source of your sync problem.

But that doesn't help much at this point. What are you using for your MPEG edits from the DVR? Maybe a different editor can do better? I've used VideoReDo and MPEG-VCR and they do fairly well.

There may be something else contributing to your sync problem, but bad edits would by my first guess.

And welcome to our forums.

[gigantibyte]

Thank you for the welcome and your response.

I haven't been using any MPEG editor (doh!) - I cut the commercials in the DVR itself. Though I can frame-forward to the exact spot I want the chapter divide, my DVR seems to want to give me a few frames more at each end. Anyhow...

I will try one of the MPEG editors you mentioned to cut out the unwanted parts, then encode to xvid afterwards.

[redwudz]

I have the same problem with my DVR. I gave up and use a MPEG editor now. In general, you want to edit as early as possible in a video project, especially before encoding to a different format.

[gigantibyte]

I want to post that using VideoReDo worked like a charm. Easy to use, and very precise. However, it does report small audio errors after saving a new file after the cuts. The resulting VOBs seem to play fine though.

I'm not 100% satisfied with my encoding yet. I still have slight audio sync problems in some parts of my projects. And I find the motion could be smoother. It's hardly discernible, but when the credits roll, they're a bit jerky.

My DVR produces MPEG-2 VOBs with PCM audio. (I choose PCM, to save space, and to not have the headache of syncing AC3 audio.) The video has a resolution of 720x480, is interlaced, and has a FPS of 29.970.

As mentioned earlier, I'm using Gordian Knot to encode my project to XviD. I followed most of the XviD encoding tips provided by Doom9 here:
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/gknot-main4.htm

When I prepare my VOBs, I am sure to 'Force Film' to get a FPS of 23.976.

About the only thing different I'm doing is using TomsMoComp filter to de-interlace the video, instead of 'Field Denterlace' which I find gives me slightly better results.

I set my encoding job for 2-pass encoding with most of the XviD settings set to default, except for what's mentioned in the guide to change. Specifically:

Motion search precision is set to 6
Turbo is checked
Quarter Pixel is checked

I then play with resolution size (with both the H & W Moduls set to 16) until none of the calculation boxes have any red in them. I usually get between 42-47% of my first compatibility test, and I can end up with a reduction in video which is equal to 93 to 87% of the original.

For a 90 minute project, I've been setting my target file size to 850 MB. Is this reasonable for a full screen video, or will I only solve my motion problems by increasing the file size?

[FulciLives]

If you can avoid editing on your DVR and just import to the computer then run the VOB files through the VideoReDo function called, "QuickStream Fix" which creates a new MPEG file (with video and audio) from the VOB files.

If you get no errors then the file is A-OK and chances are the issue with the A/V sync has been the editing you do on the DVR.

Edit the newly created MPEG file then use that output to make your MPEG-4 file.

If you want you can try to edit on the DVR but again before editing on the computer I would run the VOB files through "QuickStream Fix" first ... then edit with VideoReDo ... then convert to MPEG-4.

I have a funny feeling though that the editing on the DVR is the fault here.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

I can avoid editing on my DVR, but I can only transfer 1 hour of data at a time via a blank DVD to my PC. So I have do at least 1 cut in the middle of most films. I will definitely try the QuickStream Fix function on my next project. Thanks for the tip!

I'm seriously thinking of ditching my DVR and going with a PVR that connects via USB to my PC, like this one:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1429814&Sku=P67-1156

Don't know if that would help my XviD motion problems though...

[FulciLives]

If you want an external USB PVR unit then may I suggest the Hauppauge WinTV PVR USB2

I suggest this because it is a hardware MPEG encoder/capture device and is well respected.

That Plextor device only does software encoding/capture ... very bad. I do believe they make a step-up product that is similar but does it all in hardware but people who have used it ... well ... most reports have been negative.

While nothing is perfect for everyone (some products just don't work on some computers due to compatibility issues) the Hauppauge WinTV PVR USB2 is the only one that seems to have a proven track record.

As for editing on the computer only ... it is only an "estimated guess" of mine that the editing on the DVR is the issue and I may be wrong but generally speaking you want to run "QuickStream Fix" before any editing is done.

I suggest you edit as usual with the DVR and run it through "QuickStream Fix" before doing any computer editing. If you get errors during the "QuickStream Fix" step then you know something is up with the files (i.e., the fault of the DVR unit). If you don't get errors you should then be able to edit with VideoReDo and have everything stay in sync.

BTW sorry if I missed this but I didn't notice you saying what make/model of DVR you are using?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

My DVR model is a Toshiba RD-XS34SU. I'll let you know how the "QuickStream Fix" works on my next project. Do you have any tips on smoothing out motion in my XviD encoding? I know that question is off-topic for this forum, but it saves me retelling my situation.

[FulciLives]

My DVR model is a Toshiba RD-XS34SU. I'll let you know how the "QuickStream Fix" works on my next project. Do you have any tips on smoothing out motion in my XviD encoding? I know that question is off-topic for this forum, but it saves me retelling my situation.

Odd that ... your DVD Recorder is considered to be one of the very best. I wonder ... many such devices (I admit to not knowing the exacting details of the Toshiba) but many such devices do allow the user to record in DVD-VIDEO MODE or VR MODE. Generally speaking you should stick to DVD-VIDEO MODE (sometimes just called VIDEO MODE).

Also if the Toshiba (as do some other units) offer FRAME ACCURATE EDITING or NON-FRAME ACCURATE EDITING go for the NON-FRAME ACCURATE EDITING. I know at first that probably doesn't sound "right" but NON-FRAME ACCURATE EDITING means that you are restricted to editing on "I" frames of the MPEG video which means your edit points will be CLEAN and no RE-ENCODING will take place.

You can then "fine tune" the editing on the computer using VideoReDo.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Please note that I am a "one note" kind of person LOL
In other words let us deal with and get to a point where editing your files gives us a CLEAN output with no errors and no A/V sync issues BEFORE we try to tackle the MPEG-4 AVI creation part.

[gigantibyte]

I didn't see any setting for FRAME ACCURATE EDITING, but my DVR may be doing this already. I never get the exact cut that I made in the film, when transferring to DVD. Perhaps it is seeking out the nearest "I" frame backwards for the beginning of my chapter, and the next "I" frame forwards for the end of my chapter. This would certainly explain the extra frames I've been getting at the ends of each section/chapter.

I will start a new project tonight, and list all the steps I've taken, and the files I am given. I'll do a QuickStream Fix on the VOBs and then stop there and post my results here.

And yes, the RD-XS34SU is a great model. In fact I bought it last February through the research that I garnered at videohelp.com.

My only issue with it is that the timer is only 60% accurate , as it fails to start on occasion. I do all my programing on my satellite now, and just do "block" copies of 9 hours.

Oh yeah, AND the fact that the DVR is CGMS-A compliant. That's a real headache if you accidentally copy a program with one of those broadcast flags. It affects the entire block of recording, even if you cut it out. The only way to get the material off the DVR at that point is to use a DVD-RAM disk. Both of the PC DVD drives I have at home cannot read DVD-RAM (even with a firmware update), so I have to transfer the files at work. If the broadcast flag says "copy never", then the recording can stop entirely (sometimes it just pauses) and I miss any program I wanted that played after. Blah!

[FulciLives]

So far I've had no cable TV recording issues (i.e., copy protection) with my Pioneer DVR-531H-s and this even includes recording some stuff that you would think would be copy protected (like HBO ON-DEMAND).

It does seem from user reports that the Toshiba units are more sensitive of the broadcast flag or perhaps detecting the flag when it really isn't there etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

Try these shows if you get them in your area -

Aqua Teen Hunger Force (Which for me plays on Teletoon)
Jungle Run (Which for me plays on Discovery Kids Canada)

Both of these shows seem to have the "copy never" flag, though it can take up to five minutes or so.

[FulciLives]

Try these shows if you get them in your area -

Aqua Teen Hunger Force (Which for me plays on Teletoon)
Jungle Run (Which for me plays on Discovery Kids Canada)

Both of these shows seem to have the "copy never" flag, though it can take up to five minutes or so.

I get ATHF on the Cartoon Network. I've recorded it before with my Pioneer DVR-531H-s without issues but I haven't tried to record it in months. I can try some night.

never heard of JUNGLE RUN and I don't get Discovery Kids but I do get the regular Discovery channel.

I record often from the History Channel and never had any issues there as well as Discovery and National Geographic (although I downgraded my package a couple months or so ago so no National Geographic for me anymore).

I also record a lot from the Travel Channel (they have some neat ghost and paranormal shows on from time to time).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

As a rule, I'm always recording while I'm watching TV. Those are the only two shows that have ever given me a problem when I'm channel surfing. There are some CGMS-A blockers out there for sale, but I'm not anxious of adding another unit to my entertainment system. I'd rather buy a PVR that is not compliant.

[gigantibyte]

I started my new project tonight comprising of a movie that is 1 hour 51 minutes with the commercials. The movie was inside a bigger block of recording, so I made 3 chapter divides on my DVR for the beginning, middle, and ending of the film. I then copied the 2 sections of the film separately on 2 dvds and transfered the files onto my PC.

Disk 1:


Disk2:


I then did a QuickStream Fix on both sets of files separately. (If I should have renamed the files in the second set and ran the fix on the files together, I don't mind starting over. )

QuickStream Fix results for the first set of files:


QuickStream Fix results for the second set of files:


I ended up with 2 big MPG files.


Both files play fine and the audio is perfectly in sync. But, here's the weird part. If I open/play the files from Windows Explorer, Windows Explorer crashes.



I can otherwise open the files from within Media Player Classic without any problems.

I await your response before continuing. Take your time though, this being Christmas and all.

Thanks!

[FulciLives]

It is strange that you are getting audio frame errors with VideoReDo. Normally if everything is A-OK you don't get any errors (and no RED text on that Output Complete screen).

However if it is in sync after running QuickStream Fix then all should be fine (knock on wood) although I can't explain why Windows Explorer is crashing.

As for the way you did it ... you should do as you did and treat each DVD Rip separately but since these two MPEG files you got are one movie (right?) you can use VideoReDo to combine the two MPEG files into a single MPEG file using the JOINER function.

So I say go ahead and join them into a single MPEG file then convert to MPEG-4 AVI using autoGK (or however you normally do it).

One thing I would consider if I were you: use AC-3 audio instead of PCM WAV audio on the Toshiba and then when you convert to MPEG-4 AVI just keep the AC-3 audio as-is rather than using PCM WAV and then converting to something else (I assume you are converting to MP3 or AC-3 for the MPEG-4 AVI file).

Also you said you record in large "blocks" of time on the Toshiba. I have noticed with my Pioneer DVR-531H-s that if I record more than 6 hours at one time that I can have some strange errors in the capture file that appear to be there only in the last 2 hours or so but who knows how that might affect the file as a whole since it is one large file. So you might want to record no more than 6 hours at a time or less for a single recording.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

MPEG-4 is new to me. I've always tried to convert to XviD. Wikipedia lists XviD as an alternative to MPEG-4, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4 ) so I'm a bit confused as to what you mean.

[FulciLives]

MPEG-4 is new to me. I've always tried to convert to XviD. Wikipedia lists XviD as an alternative to MPEG-4, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4 ) so I'm a bit confused as to what you mean.

DivX and XviD are both forms of MPEG-4 so when I say MPEG-4 I mean DivX/XviD.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

Ok, cool. Since audio is where my issues lie at the moment, I will change the settings on my DVR to AC3 and start a new project. I assume editing VOBs with AC3 in VideoReDo won't be a problem.

Will AC3 audio take more room in my final AVI? And if I want my final AVI to look as good as my initial VOBs, should I be aiming for a final size of 1500 MB instead of 850 MB?

[jman98]

giantibyte - I just wanted to point out that using Qpel can be a problem because many standalone DVD players that support Divx don't support this at all. I might even go far as to say that most players won't support it. You may not care at all and I suspect that as time goes on this will become less and less of an issue, but I just wanted to point out that right now it is an issue on many standalone players.

AC3 will take up less space than PCM. That's really odd that your recorder can use as most use 2 channel AC3 only because PCM audio takes up an awful lot of space on the DVD. I'm making a wild guess, but perhaps trying to record in PCM is overtaxing your recorder.

You can edit VOBs with AC3 in VideoReDo. That will not be a problem.

[gigantibyte]

One of the reasons I used PCM was so I could easily convert to MP3 without sync problems, as I was having with AC3 in the past. I see now that recording in and keeping it AC3 will be the easier way. As a bonus, since I switched, I was able to crank up the video bitrate on my DVR to a maximum 9.2 Mbps from 7.6 - and still use the same file space. This is probably overkill. Does anyone know the max I can expect from an S-video signal from my satellite receiver?

[FulciLives]

One of the reasons I used PCM was so I could easily convert to MP3 without sync problems, as I was having with AC3 in the past. I see now that recording in and keeping it AC3 will be the easier way. As a bonus, since I switched, I was able to crank up the video bitrate on my DVR to a maximum 9.2 Mbps from 7.6 - and still use the same file space. This is probably overkill. Does anyone know the max I can expect from an S-video signal from my satellite receiver?

Sounds like you understand what I am saying about the audio. Do it at AC-3 and keep it that way!

I don't think the video bitrate is overkill ... at least NOT if you want MAX quality ... as long as you don't mind cutting things up into chunks like well like anything over 1 hour. At least you should be able to copy over 2 30 minute shows or 1 60 minute show with just a trim at the start and end.

As stated VideoReDo will have no trouble editing a MPEG file with AC-3 audio.

As for using XviD ... I suggest using autoGK as it makes the process fairly easy yet still gives you some control over the settings.

Also if you plan to play the XviD files on a MPEG-4 capable DVD player then autoGK will ... with the correct settings ... make sure that the XviD is compatible.

As for quality ... well it depends what you want to do exactly ...

If you intend to use autoGK I can give some tips but if not then ...

Also do you want to make a XviD that is compatible with a MPEG-4 capable DVD player or will you be playing them via a computer with TV out or ...

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gigantibyte]

Thanks. You've given me a lot of great information which I plan on putting to good use. If I have issues with my next project, I will post my problem in the appropriate forum, and refer to this thread.

Merry Christmas!

[ITIL2]

I too have a Toshiba rd-xs34su. I switched to Direct TV and don't have channel 02. How can I get my rd-xs34su to see the channels in TV Guide?


Thank You

[FulciLives]

I too have a Toshiba rd-xs34su. I switched to Direct TV and don't have channel 02. How can I get my rd-xs34su to see the channels in TV Guide?


Thank You

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread.

It would be very wise of you to create your own thread and use an appropriate subject like, "Need Help with using TV GUIDE on Toshiba RD-XS34SU".

Also be sure to put it in the proper forum ... in this case the DVD RECORDER section.

You should get a lot of answers then (knock on wood).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ITIL2]

My apologies. I'm new to this site and trying to solve a problem. Thanks for your advice. Have a great day.

Gene