What is the Maximum Capture Bitrate i should use ??

[edDV]

I'll wait for the next PBS airing and capture it here. It looks like an interesting program but the wide screen version edited out the nudist colony segment. Bummer that.

[c627627]

I can't do it, I can only link to mpg files.

Will analyzing the mpg that was Encoded Interlaced from original avi do?

[edDV]

That is why you want to capture to interlace 29.97 for 480i or 1080i and not process during capture if you expect to filter later.

If you captured that with "inverse 3:2 pulldown" enabled, you have damaged the capture probably with no hope of repair. I think that was said about 6 pages ago.

[Nelson37]

Using just Encode Interlaced should result in playback that is the same as the original broadcast. Can you verify that it was not Jittery as it was originally broadcast? This is not terribly unusual.

The other possibilities would be lots of dropped frames or field order reversal during authoring.
If I understand you correctly you tried BOTH field orders for encoding and BOTH were Jittery?

If the software truly reversed the fields and you can't tell the difference the video may well be crap to start with. You can't polish a turd.

If the Jitter effect is due to interlacing effects these should be masked by playback on the TV. This will more or less accomplish a blend de-interlace.

Are you using Progressive or Cinema mode on either the TV or the DVD player? This may affect the output.

[c627627]

I never enabled Inverse 3:2 Pulldown.

I only selected Progressive Source instead of Encode Interlaced. Here's Encode Interlaced mpg:

http://rapidshare.com/files/19603764/Test.mpg.html

[c627627]

I just read your post Nelson 37. I'm uploading the seemingly stable Progressive Source now.

Yes both top field and bottom field Encode Interlaced were jittery when played from a DVD disc on TV.

Progressive Source encoded DVD is seemingly stable.

Power DVD also displays it as stable on my computer and displays Encode Interlaced as jittery. Note that PowerDVD displays the original avi as stable.

[c627627]

Jittery Encode Interlaced mpg is two posts up.

And here's the seemingly stable Encode Progressive Only:
http://rapidshare.com/files/19605025/TestProgressive.mpg.html

Hope you can see that it is more stable than Encode Interlaced. That's what makes it oddball and let's find out why.

[c627627]

Remember these need to be viewed on DVD players or software like PowerDVD or WinDVD that can replicate how this would look on TV.

Encode Interlaced Test.mpg will not be jittery on Windows Media Player and other similar software, only on PowerDVD, WinDVD or actual DVD players viewed on TV.

[jagabo]

Your first MPEG file is encoded 29.97 fps interlaced and flagged as top field first (as reported by GSpot). But it is really bottom field first video. My guess is your DVD authoring software is burning it as TFF or progressive. If burned as progressive, the video still has to be sent to your TV one field at a time (that's the ONLY thing that composite or s-video cables carry). Most DVD players default to TFF with progressive video. Hence the jerky playback. And yes, this was originally 25 fps PAL material and has been converted to NTSC with that partial field blending technique.

Your second video has been blend deinterlaced and is encoded as 29.97 fps progressive.

[c627627]

Your guess about DVD authoring software burning it as TFF is correct, Encode Interlace TFF is what test.mpg is.

Encode Progressive Only is what TestProgressive.mpg is. That is the stable one, Encode Progressive is the stable one, Encode Interlaced TFF is jittery.

What do you mean "But it is really bottom field first video"? ATi capture cards are Top Field First.

But all right, here it is encoded as Bottom Field First, same jittery nightmare as you can see below.

Once again, only if Progressive Only WITHOUT Inverse 3:2 Pulldown is selected does it come out stable.

http://rapidshare.com/files/19622715/TestBF.mpg.html is the Encode Interlaced Bottom Field First mpg for jagabo.

[manono]

Yep, shows as TFF, but it's really BFF. At least that clip is. I don't know what the whole cap is like. Here it is unblended (as best as is possible with that POS clip) , made progressive again, the grey bars replaced with black bars, and the black on the right side redistributed:

http://www.badongo.com/file/2390487

It plays perfectly smoothly. It's a single VOB. To make it a DVD for playing in WinDVD, PowerDVD, or in a standalone, you'll have to recreate the IFO/BUP files using IFOEdit, TMPGEnc DVD Author, or some such.

Once again, only if Progressive Only WITHOUT Inverse 3:2 Pulldown is selected does it come out stable.

Not if it's properly reencoded.

[manono]

The second one shows as BFF, but is really TFF. I could encode it again, but why bother? I could reencode it keeping it at 29.97fps interlaced, to have it then play smoothly. Would that serve any purpose?

[jagabo]

What do you mean "But it is really bottom field first video"? ATi capture cards are Top Field First.

I mean the MPEG encoder was fed a BFF video but compressed the frames as if they were TFF (and flagged the video as TFF in the MPEG header(s)). It plays perfectly smoothly when burned to DVD as BFF. It's very jerky burned as TFF.

But all right, here it is encoded as Bottom Field First, same jittery nightmare as you can see below.

That video was encoded as BFF but the frames are TFF!

[manono]

Here's the TestBF reencoded as interlaced 29.97fps. It's an MPV, so you can author it in any authoring app and it'll play smoothly:

http://www.badongo.com/file/2390657

I think you'll agree that, even though this plays smoothly enough, the unblended one looks much better.

[c627627]

I downloaded your link. It is jittery. My Encode Interlaced TFF & BFF are jittery.

The only one not jittery is the one I encoded as Progressive Only *without* Inverse 3:2 Pulldown. This one: http://rapidshare.com/files/19605025/TestProgressive.mpg.html

[manono]

I downloaded your link. It is jittery.

Bull. Which link? And do I have to actually make the DVD for you so you can play it? I figured you knew how to author. Is it being reencoded by whatever you're using, or having the field order being switched? I made them, authored for DVD, and tested in PowerDVD and MPC. They're both fine. You really take the cake sometimes, you know that?

Author the 2nd one in Muxman. That way you'll be sure it's not being reencoded. The first one can be authored in IFOEdit, I guess. Or extract the M2V using DGIndex and author in Muxman. The only reason I didn't upload the whole DVD with IFOs and BUPs was because I wasn't sure you'd be able to unrar it, if I did it that way. If you tell me you know how to unrar it, I'll reupload.

[c627627]

I can unrar manono. There's nothing personal about my opinion that when viewed with PowerDVD on computer or when viewed with DVD player on TV, these are more jittery:

Encode Interlaced TFF: http://rapidshare.com/files/19603764/Test.mpg.html
Encode Interlaced BFF: http://rapidshare.com/files/19622715/TestBF.mpg.html
TestBF reencoded as interlaced 29.97fps: http://www.badongo.com/file/2390657

Whereas this one is less jittery: Encoded as Progressive Only *without* Inverse 3:2 Pulldown: http://rapidshare.com/files/19605025/TestProgressive.mpg.html


The camera moves a lot but within it, there is a difference between the first three vs. the last one which is Encoded as Progressive Only.


Once again we are talking about an oddbal case that does not conform to usual procedures we talked about.

Also, note that ATi capture cards are Top Field First by default so encoding as Bottom Field First should by default not be done.

However, I did view all files and am eager to find out what works, what doesn't no matter how unlikely.


Respecting each other, we should both be open to finding out what's behind this, if nothing edDV will capture this show if it airs again on PBS for a more definitive test.

Until then, let's see if more people can tell the difference between the posted links at least.

[manono]

Here's the exact same interlaced video as before, made from Encode Interlaced BFF, this time made into a DVD and RAR'd up:

http://www.badongo.com/file/2392056

And here's Encode Interlaced TFF made into a progressive DVD by unblending as best as can be done.

http://www.badongo.com/file/2392123

I'll grant you one thing, though; this is an unusual case. Although fieldblended PAL2NTSC isn't at all uncommon, it's not every day you see a video flagged with the wrong field order. I have no idea if it somehow happened during the capture, or if it was actually broadcast like that.

Respecting each other, we should both be open to finding out what's behind this,...

I couldn't care less what's behind it. As long as you know how to fix it, what's the difference?

[c627627]

What's behind it, meanig what's causing it so that a DVD can be made without jittering picture.

You are saying the video is flagged with the wrong field order.

When I run the avi this is what I get:

[c627627]

Therefore I set the field order when I encode that avi to mpg, correct?

And I tried setting the field order as TFF, BFF and as Progressive and posted links to all three, so the three links were just as I set the field order when making the mpg files, correct?

And of the three links, I get the mpg encoded as Progressive only being the least jittery mpg.


Your Encode Interlaced BFF, this time made into a DVD: I find to have more jitter than my mpg that was Enoced with Progressive only setting without Inverse 3:2 pulldown.


The other link you privided you say is Encode Interlaced TFF made into a progressive DVD by unblending as best as can be done, it's interesting, it's as if there is less jitter but I get some sort of flashing, some sort of different kind of negative effects on it.

I'm curious what others think of the three comparisons:
Encode Interlaced TFF: http://rapidshare.com/files/19603764/Test.mpg.html
Encode Interlaced BFF: http://rapidshare.com/files/19622715/TestBF.mpg.htm

The one that's least jittery: Encoded as Progressive Only *without* Inverse 3:2 Pulldown: http://rapidshare.com/files/19605025/TestProgressive.mpg.html

[guns1inger]

I have looked at some of the samples posted over the last day or so, and I cannot see this 'jitter' that seems to be causing so much angst. I can see interlacing, and yes, in some cases it does seem to be that the field order is incorrectly flagged, but I do not see what you find so unusual. I have used Virtualdubmpeg2, VLC, MPC and PowerDVD to view the samples. I have put the TFF flagged mpeg through ReStream to change the field order. I have even used virtualdubmpeg2's simple 3:2 removal. Yes, it produced some small changes (and improvements, in some cases), but I don't see anything particularly unusual or terrible able the video.

Can you describe more clearly exactly what you are seeing that you are calling Jitter ?

[manono]

What's behind it, meanig what's causing it so that a DVD can be made without jittering picture.

I made a DVD without jittering, 2 of them in fact.

You are saying the video is flagged with the wrong field order.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I also said it earlier, echoing jagobo's statement that said the same thing. He's said it twice also. That's 4 times now; 5 if you count this post's confirmation.

What's the AVI for? It doesn't even say anything about the field order, does it? I don't need G-Spot to tell me the field order. I thought you were capping as MPEG-2. If you tell me now that you capped as AVI and reencoded as MPG, I'm going to jump through the ether and kill you.

[jagabo]

AVI doesn't have a field order flag so you have to determine it yourself.

If you're making your MPG files from this AVI what's probably happening is the software is assuming the AVI is TFF but it's really BFF.

If the software assumes the source is TFF and you ask for a TFF MPG file it compresses the frames as is and flags the video as TFF (and since the source was really BFF it's flagged wrong).

If the software assumes the source is TFF and you ask for a BFF MPG file, the software reverses the field order of the video (this can be done by shifting the frame up or down by one scan line) then compresses it and flags it as BFF. But now the frames are really TFF so the video is flagged wrong again.

So what's unusual about this case is the video was captured BFF, not the usual TFF the AIW usually captures as.

I don't have PowerDVD but some players assume MPEG is TFF and will BOB a BFF (correctly flagged) MPEG file with the wrong field order.

Manono's http://www.badongo.com/file/2392056 played jerky on my players.

I demuxed the original test.mpg into an elementary stream with DGIndex. This left the MPEG encoding exactly as it was, a BFF video incorrectly flagged as TFF. I then used ReStream to make a copy with that video but correctly flagged as BFF. I burned both of these to a DVD with Ulead DVD Movie Factory. Nothing was reencoded anywhere along the line. Here's the VIDEO_TS contents:

http://download.yousendit.com/CCEB81125A38738C

The incorreclty flagged version plays jerky (30 jerks/sec) as expected. The correctly flagged version plays fine. This is on a 32" NTSC CRT TV and a Philips DVP-5960, and a 13" NTSC CRT TV via a Liteon LVD-2002.

[c627627]

Interseting post. Let me see if i understand it: The software assumes the flag and then makes corrections to its assumption based on what you tell it?

Here's my question: We can set how the avi file is encoded in all three possible ways TFF, BFF and Progressive only, correct?

But how do we account and change what the software 'assumes' to begin with?



Not if I kill you first manono.

I have an HD show that I captured into an AVI file.

The opening sequence is jittery if 'Interlaced' is selected for conversion to MPEG-2.
It is stable if 'Progressive Only' is selected.
(...)
• I have it captured into AVI.
• If I convert the AVI to DVD, play it on my DVD player on TV, I have jitters if it's done one way vs. picture that doesn't have visible to the point of being annoying jitters if it's done in another way.
(...)
You are correct that captured avi file can be compressed using bottom field order first, and I tried that, and for both top and bottom field orders the opening sequence was jittery.
(...)
It was not jittery only if the Progressive setting is selected when compressing the unusual, uncommon avi to mpg.
(...)
When capturing avi, you can't even set those so the captured avi is as it is and then using other software to compress it to mpg results in a stable compressed mpg ONLY if encoded with Progressive setting, not Interlaced top (or bottom) field first.
(...)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that: capturing this footage with Encode Interlaced or converting the captured avi with field order Encode Interlaced top or bottom field first results in a jittery capture.

[jagabo]

Interseting post. Let me see if i understand it: The software assumes the flag and then makes corrections to its assumption based on what you tell it?

Here's my question: We can set how the avi file is encoded in all three possible ways TFF, BFF and Progressive only, correct?

But how do we account and change what the software 'assumes' to begin with?

It depends on the software. Some software lets you specify the source field order and encodes with that same field order. Some lets you specify the output field order and assumes the source is the same field order. Some assumes source field order (and it may vary depending on type) and lets you specify output field order and swaps fields if necessary. Some lets you specify both the source and output field orders and swaps fields if necessary.

[c627627]

Well let's see if you're on to something. I was under the impression that you pick one (TFF, BFF, or Progressive) and that's it.

But pick any one of these and I'll encode the avi differently as you say, I just did an encoder shootout and I still have these installed:

• Canopus ProCoder 1.5
• Canopus ProCoder 2.0
• Cinema Craft Encoder SP2 1.00.00.13
• Cinema Craft Encoder Basic 2.70.01.15
• Sony Vegas 6.0d (MainConcept)
• Sony Vegas 7.0d (MainConcept)
• TMPGEnc Plus 2.524.63.181
• TMPGEnc DVD Source Creator 4.2.7.199
• Ulead VideoStudio 10
• Ulead DVD Workshop 2


Before I reimage my system and they disappear, which one can be used to accomplish what you are saying?

[jagabo]

TMPGEnc Plus lets you specify the source field order but only encodes with the same field order.

Ulead Media Studio Pro lets you specify both the source and output field orders. It swaps fields if necessary. If I remember correctly, Ulead VIdeoStudio lets you specify the source field order -- but I don't remember if you can swap the field order for output.

I'm not sure what CCE does, I usually use it for progressive sources. It lets you specify the output field order but doesn't seem to pay attention to that setting. I know if I open a BFF DV AVI file it swaps the fields and outputs TFF MPG regardless of the output field order setting.

All of them have deinterlacing options and can output any source as progressive.

[guns1inger]

CCE you need to go into the advanced tab and set the output order and field offset

Perhaps it would help if you posted the same segment from the original avi capture, instead of segments that have already been re-encoded and potentially damaged.

[jagabo]

CCE you need to go into the advanced tab and set the output order and field offset

Thanks for the clarification. I never really use CCE for interlaced video but now that you mention it I remember that the field offset is used along with the field order setting.

[c627627]

CCE it is then.

Here's a snapshot of Settings and Advanced Settings, tell me which button to press & change.

If we get this to work on one of them, what a great opportunity it will be to play around the settings in all of them to see which one can handle this oddball.

But we need to get it to work on at least one of them so I have a reference.

I tried to shorten the 13 GB avi chunk to a few seconds of under 100MB but when I tried, I was faced with a prospect of reencoding it and when I saw that even reencoding avi had TFF, BFF, Progressive options for reencoding, I figured what was the point, given that the avi is captured without any adjustable settings, given that it plays fine on PowerDVD - it is the Encoding Process that screws it up.

Remember before erasing it from my DVR box, I first tried capturing directly to mpg with the same results of Encode Interlaced - jittery, Encode as Progressive Source - stable.

I wanted to capture only parts of it so I thought I could use the pause button but there was more editing required so I captured it to avi, to do the heavier editing and encode to MPEG-2. Now I have the avi only.


But let's get to figuring out the Advanced options, you want me to post CCE Basic options instead of CCE-SP2?

https://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1669435/cce-sp2-settings.jpg