Wich de-interlacer for DV-content (pic included)?

[20/20]

Beneath is a capture of my DV-content when the interlacing is really showing.
I tried some of the de-interlacers that come with VLC-player while playing content
(they are: Bob, Blend, Mean, X) To see what the effects were.

"Mean" seems to look best. But I have no clue what it exactly does (Why is it called "Mean"?)

I'm reading up on avisynth and how to use it. So I'll be using that shortly as well.
Any other recommendations?



(btw. I'm new here, to video in general and this forum)

[FulciLives]

Generally speaking you do NOT want to deinterlace DV camcorder footage.

Yes it looks like ass on a computer monitor but if you intend to make a standard DVD Video and leave it interlaced then it will look fine on a TV (SD or HDTV) and if you play that same DVD on a computer but use a DVD player (such as PowerDVD or WinDVD) then they will deinterlace on playback.

So if your target is to make a standard DVD Video ... well there you go.

If you intend to do something different then please let us know.

And welcome

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[redwudz]

The first question is 'Why do you want to deinterlace?' If you are planning to output to a AVI type format, you may want to deinterlace. If your final destination is any type of MPEG or a DVD, don't deinterlace. It will look fine on a regular TV display as interlaced video. For AVI, I use a 'Smart deinterlace' filter in VirtualDub Mod.

And welcome to our forums.

[edDV]

He is using the VLC player which is appropriate.

I've been searching for descriptions of the VLC deinterlace modes as well and have come up with nothing for "mean" but I agree that it looks better than bob and doesn't toss a field like "discard". Mean looks good for DV or 1080i material.

Next best is to invoke hardware deinterlacing from the display card from VLC but that can get techie and depends on the quality of your display card deinterlacer. AVIVO and Purevideo do fairly well.

Power DVD uses an adaptive technique to switch modes in response to diffferent types of video. Its not as good as the hardware deinterlacer in most HDTV sets but does a good job for computer display.

[FulciLives]

He is using the VLC player which is appropriate.

I've been searching for descriptions of the VLC deinterlace modes as well and have come up with nothing for "mean" but I agree that it looks better than bob and doesn't toss a field like "discard". Mean looks good for DV or 1080i material.

I didn't know that the VLC media player was considered A-OK for MPEG-2 playback. I admit I have been using it lately but only for DivX/XviD playback.

I normally use PowerDVD for DVD playing ... perhaps I'll give VLC a try for that kind of content.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

He is using the VLC player which is appropriate.

I've been searching for descriptions of the VLC deinterlace modes as well and have come up with nothing for "mean" but I agree that it looks better than bob and doesn't toss a field like "discard". Mean looks good for DV or 1080i material.

I didn't know that the VLC media player was considered A-OK for MPEG-2 playback. I admit I have been using it lately but only for DivX/XviD playback.

I normally use PowerDVD for DVD playing ... perhaps I'll give VLC a try for that kind of content.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I use VLC for quick views of DV (480i) or 1080i because it is fast loading and efficient on slower machines. I tend to use PowerDVD for watching full programs or movies mostly for its display features and auto matching display card modes like ATI Theater mode. VLC configuration is more manual.

But I have to say I prefer to watch programs from a standalone DVD player. With the display cards I have here, the DVD player always looks better than playing from the computer.

[redwudz]

I use VLC for DVD playback at times. Just right click on the VIDEO_TS folder and select 'Play with VLC media player'. I like how you can preset it to your language of subtitles. I use it more than PowerDVD. It's great for previewing a DVD VIDEO_TS folder before burning also.

[edDV]

Yeah I have VLC associated to VOB, mpg, ts, tp, etc. for quick previews. It loads almost instantly and one can have multiple instances running.

[20/20]

Well, VLC is convenient. But it does not playback DVD menus as well as other software.

Generally speaking you do NOT want to deinterlace DV camcorder footage.

Yes it looks like ass on a computer monitor but if you intend to make a standard DVD Video and leave it interlaced then it will look fine on a TV (SD or HDTV) and if you play that same DVD on a computer but use a DVD player (such as PowerDVD or WinDVD) then they will deinterlace on playback.

So if your target is to make a standard DVD Video ... well there you go.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

The reason is that I want to postprocess and convert it to mpeg-4 format
(perhaps x264)
It suffers from bad picture anyway, wich I want to enhance.
And it takes 2 GB space in DV-format (wich I want to reduce)

So do you have any suggestions?
I'm going to load Avisynth-scripts to test some deinterlacers tommoroow.
Thanks for any useful tips.

[bobkart]

The general problem of deinterlacing involves combining the two fields that make up a single frame such that the artifacts introduced by the interlacing in the first place disappear (the jagged edges). There is no one way that is considered best, or else everyone would just use that. So instead you have a menu of choices, as you see in VLC, that each use a different algorithm in their attempt to achieve satisfactory results. How satisfactory those results actually are can only be determined by the viewer, since there is no one right answer. So "try it and see" is the best advice you can get, notwithstanding the fact that some deinterlacing algorithms are known to produce better results no matter what the source material is (in those cases there is a tradeoff between computational efficiency and quality of the results).

(I believe "Mean" refers to the statistical term "mean", as in "average".)

[20/20]

And wich de-interlacer(s) do you know of work similar to
this "mean" type de-interlacer?

Another question: Should I "Deshake" before or after de-interlacing?

[bobkart]

I guess one of the points I was trying to make is: There is no one right way to do the things you're trying to do. So questions like "Should I do this or that?" can't be answered definitively. Try it and see. The answer will be whichever one gives you the best results. Your task boils down to:

- Identify the ways of doing what you're trying to do that MAY give the "best" results
- Trying each of them in turn and
- Assessing the results from each of those trials and deciding which is "best"

Then use the method that "won".

The Internet is full of information about things like deinterlacing algorithms, seek and ye shall find!

[redwudz]

Well, VLC is convenient. But it does not playback DVD menus as well as other software.

As long as you select the VIDEO_TS folder with VLC, it seems to access the DVD menu as well as most other software players.

[20/20]

wich searchterms you suppose I use in Google?
I 'm trying to find a deinterlacer that does what that mean-deinterlcer does.
Not that hard is it? Well if you have tons and tons of forums and threads with 16 pages that will be hard.
Either you know or you don't
No need to preach something that's obvious. You either like to
suggest something regarding deinterlacing, or leave the preaching behind.

thank you.

[bobkart]

I 'm trying to find a deinterlacer that does what that mean-deinterlcer does.

- Find out what the mean deinterlacer does
- Find out what other deinterlacing algorithms are out there
- Find out what they do
- Once you know that you can answer your question

Aren't you capable of helping yourself? Must others do your work for you?

Do not expect any further replies from me. I have no desire to deal with attitude on top of laziness.

[redwudz]

Try 'Smart Deinterlace' as previously mentioned: http://neuron2.net/smart/smart.html

[FulciLives]

The correct answer is to compress to a MPEG-2 DVD spec file. Forget formats that only work well with a progressive source such as DivX/XviD.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

...

The reason is that I want to postprocess and convert it to mpeg-4 format
(perhaps x264)
It suffers from bad picture anyway, wich I want to enhance.
And it takes 2 GB space in DV-format (wich I want to reduce)

So do you have any suggestions?
I'm going to load Avisynth-scripts to test some deinterlacers tommoroow.
Thanks for any useful tips.

In general, software deinterlacers can't match hardware techniques due to processing time and patent restrictions. In the early days of HDTV and DVD MPeg2 encoding, Hollywood mastering was done on massive computers often for days with proprietary software encoders. Once the right deinterlacing formulas were worked out (mostly in the area of motion analysis), the algorithms were reduced to realtime hardware. Full processing requires several frames of video storage. The slower the processor, the more frames of delay are required. Motion estimation technology allowed use of less memory.

Dumbed down versions of this technology are finding a way into progressive DVD players, HDTV sets and to a lesser extent into computer display cards. Even at this dumbed down level, software deinterlacing would take more time than most will accept for encoding cycles. We are left with very simple deinterlacing filters with little patience for motion analysis to apply the right filter to the right pixel blocks.

This is why for DVD, it is better to keep interlace source interlaced, so the player or display can do the deinterlace in hardware. Extreme MPeg4 compression requires detinterlacing currently but VC-1 and H.264 should be able to maintain interlace at reasonable compression rates as development continues.

[edDV]

wich searchterms you suppose I use in Google?
I 'm trying to find a deinterlacer that does what that mean-deinterlcer does.
Not that hard is it? Well if you have tons and tons of forums and threads with 16 pages that will be hard.
Either you know or you don't
No need to preach something that's obvious. You either like to
suggest something regarding deinterlacing, or leave the preaching behind.

thank you.

I've searched Google to some extent for definition of VLC deinterlace modes. Next step would be to enter the VLC project forums and talk to the developers.

I think "mean" is just a weighted form of blend and weave applied full frame. I doubt there is much motion analysis since the CPU load changes little. Note that these techniques are at the crude end of the scale. Quick and very dirty. Software deinterlace is a one way very lossy path so best to keep a DV backup for the future for important recordings.

[jagabo]

Try 'Smart Deinterlace' as previously mentioned: http://neuron2.net/smart/smart.html

Definitely worth a try. Select the Edge-directed Interpolate mode.

[vhelp]

I would also like to add..

That de-interlace'r filter (mean) that you mention.. that would obviously
be a propreitory algorithem/routine developed by the makers of VLC player.

So, I don't think that you will find an "equivalent" version in any of the
other avenues.. ie, AVIsynth; VirtualDub; or other -- at least not with
the same level of quality (as you indicate) from the VLC player.

Sure, there are various versions of de-interlace'rs out there, and even
a one or two that might try an effort at simulating *other peoples*
methods, but most probable not duplicate them all.

As was indicated in so many words.. there are infanite possibilites in
the development of algorithems for such de-interlace'rs, and they keep on
comming!

-vhelp 4162