Convert 16:9 to 14:9

[dvd3500]

Hi Folks,
Tried the search but couldn't find anything.
Most of my friends in the US relatively small 4:3 TVs still. Most of my movies are anamorph 16:9 taken from a camcorder.
This means they get big black bars on their screens.
I figured a good compromise would be to encode them to 14:9 ala BBC.
I haven't been able to find any guides on this for both PAL and NTSC
Does anyone have any tips?
Thanks

[Alex_ander]

Seems the only way to do it is letterboxing.
1.Crop sides of your source video from 16:9 to 14:9 displayed AR.
2.Resize for PAL DVD to 720x496 and add 40+40 horisontal borders, or for NTSC to 720x416 adding 32+32 borders. Encode as 4:3.

[guns1inger]

I never considered the bars from 1.78:1 (16:9) material to be large. 2.35:1 is starting to get up there on a smaller TV.

Be aware that most tools for cropping will simply lop off the ends, without reframing. If you haven't shot with this in mind, you may well lose image that you want to keep. Using a good editor that allows you to reframe within the visible image area using keyframes will allow you to mimic the Pan and Scan process to keep the important moments in shot.

[SLK001]

My advice? Don't do it. Most TV shows in the US are transmitted using 16:9 aspect ratios now, so people with a "regular" TV are already used to the bars. In a couple of years, the only TVs that you will be able to obtain will be 16:9.

I still have a 4:3 TV, but most of my encodes are anamorphic 16:9.

You can also set the video to display 16:9 videos to "pan and scan" at 4:3 through your authoring program.

In other words, if you convert to 14:9 now, you will have to re-convert to 16:9 at a later date.

[dvd3500]

Believe me the black bars are huge on the TV. I think it is only 21" and my 95 year old gran has trouble seeing as it is.
I would of course keep the 16X9 and put the 14X9 on the DVD so they have a choice.
I couldn't find the Aspect Ratio that alex provided so thank you very much.
I am aware of losing the picture without being able to pan&scan, not sure if any software really does that.
How much do I crop off the sides?
Thanks

[guns1inger]

Do they have a zoom function on their DVD player ? The first increment will most likely be around 14:9

The other complication is format conversion. You seem to be targeting the US, but mention the BBC for an example of 14:9. Are you shooting in the UK in PAL ? Will the output be only NTSC ?

This is important for the resizing.

[Alex_ander]

How much do I crop off the sides?
Thanks

It depends on you source video details.
If your original 16:9 source is square-pixelled (anything but MPEG) and has correct proportions, you can directly (without keeping in mind future MPEGs) calculate how many pixels to cut: totally 1/8 of original horisontal size. Then resize and add borders for PAL(NTSC) using numbers from my older post.

[guns1inger]

Image resolution is 1.55:1

[Alex_ander]

P.S. Actually it doesn't matter is your source video distorted or not or is it from MPEG, etc. Since you'll anyway resize it to forced pixel numbers (given above) and you know it's a 16:9 picture, you still have to cut off exactly 1/8 of its size in pixels: your original picture in all cases can be treated as 1/9+14/9+1/9=16/9 and you simply cut 1/16+1/16 leaving 14/16 of horisontal pixel size for the desired 14/9.

[dvd3500]

Hi Folks,
Thanks for some of the ideas. No the DVD player/TV don't have any zoom. Teh TV is from something like 1991. But hey, I lice 3000 miles away so I have to do SOMETHING.

Here's the whold process. I shoot with my camcorder that does 16:9 anamorhpic. I use an ADVC 300 set to 12:9 to input to the comptuer as PAL DV AVI that when encoded straight to widescreen MPEG using Media Studio Pro looks great regardless if output is PAL or NTSC. Ulead seems to have gotten a good handle on format changes. Obviously everything is stretched tall in the DV AVI before encoding to 16:9 DVD MPEG.

My grandmother and mother live in the US and and did not buy DVD players that handle patched DVDs or Region 0. It has to be an NTSC authered DVD. Their TVs are very old and small and their eyes are not the best.

My 32 inch wiedscreen TV can do NTSC (real not PAL60) and PAL so I can test it here.

SO, given all of that found what I am having trouble with is whether pixel aspect ratio is an issue or not. I am abslutletly HOPELESS with math so bare with me. If I take my PAL DV AVI video, crop of 1/8 as Allex_Ander say I will crop off 90 (720/8=90) on the sides (45 pixels each) then resize border for PAL DVD to 720x496 and add 40+40 horisontal borders and encode as 4:3 would that be OK?

[dvd3500]

Was it something I said?

[FulciLives]

I think we all feel that this is stupid.

So why help?

I mean a 16x9 WS video is only 1.78:1 whereas a normal TV is 1.33:1 so the letterboxed effect (the black above and below the image) is not all that exagerated (maybe 20% if that of the total screen is blacked out).

Yet you make it sound like half the screen is black.

So like get a clue. It ain't that big a deal.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dvd3500]

I wasn't born yesterday andI have been a member of this forum for over two years and if you had taken more then 10 seconds to read the pst you would see that there is avery specific need for this.

I have a 32" widescreen TV and I would never touch my 16X9 material for it. My 95 year old grandmother has a 12" (Admittedly I miswrite the 21, as if that has never happened before) 4X3 TV and believe me 30% of the screen is black, as we all know.

See the next to last post:
"My grandmother and mother live in the US and and did not buy DVD players that handle patched DVDs or Region 0. It has to be an NTSC authered DVD. Their TVs are very old and small and their eyes are not the best.

My 32 inch wiedscreen TV can do NTSC (real not PAL60) and PAL so I can test it here."


I normally would expect a response like this from some "Hello Kitty" forum but I had, until now found the everyone here fairly professional.

I see tones of people in here try to convert 4X3 matieral to widescreen and NONE of them have been so rudely treated.

If this is the direction this site is going no wonder that is very said indeed.

[FulciLives]

What the hell does a Japanese cat got to do with anything?

Anyways you are bad at math. 12" instead of 21" huh?

30% of the screen black huh?

It is actually more like 25% but after TV OVERSCAN really only 20% of the screen is black.

Anyways you asked what the problem is and I told you. Not my fault you don't like the answer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Buy the poor woman a bigger TV

[dvd3500]

I mistyped. I meant 12 and wrote 21. Have you never, ever mistyped before?

I would buy her a bigger TV but she lives in a small apartment. Besides, ever tried to teach a 95 year old something new?

So if we take your math and a 12" TV we are looking at about a 3-4 inch strip of picture across the middle.

Overscan on her set is very high for some reason. Maybe she messed with the controls some how.

As I stated in an earlier post, I would have two versions on the the DVD 16:9 and 14:9 encoded as 4:3 so I think I have a little bit of a clue. This isn't my first post after all.

I thought people here could help because in the past two years a lot of people have helped with some even stranger requests.

I did not think members who have been active for over two years and had clearly (albeit admittedly with some mispsellings) stated why this is a special case would be treated like some zit-faced 14 year old who is trying to reencode some Japanese pr0n.

Axel_ander was being very helpful and informative. I wish he would respond.

SLK001 voiced a similar opinion in a much more diplomatic way. And believe me, if a widescreen TV was an option I would go for it but there are some people in the US who do not want the latest and greatest and don't feel like running themselves into debt.
There are even people who eat high carb food, shocking I know.

My point is that I realize, and completely agree that this is NOT the best way to do it and I think I made clear that under these very special circumstances: old, small 4:3 TV, old small woman and bad eyes, that I was looking for a compromise.

[FulciLives]

Here is the math:

PAL 16x9 WS is 720x576 and looks like this:

PAL 16x9 WS at 720x576 (not resized for proper aspect ratio on a computer monitor)



This is what it looks like on a NTSC 4:3 TV (resized for proper aspect ratio on a computer monitor):



If you want to convert the PAL 16x9 WS video to 4:3 NTSC then you do it like this: crop 96 from the left and 96 from the right. So you go from 720x576 to 528x576. Now resize from 528x576 to 720x480. You now have a NTSC 4:3 image.

The 4:3 NTSC at 720x480 (not resized for proper aspect ratio on a computer monitor)



This is how it will look on a 4:3 NTSC TV (resized for proper aspect ratio on a computer monitor):



Sorry for using Japanimation as my example but that was the only 16x9 PAL source I had on my HDD at this time.

Here is a picture that switches back and forth from 16x9 WS NTSC and 4:3 NTSC (both watched on a 4:3 TV and adjusted for proper aspect ratio on a computer monitor):


As you can see ... converting it from 16x9 WS to 4:3 means that a good bit of the image gets cut off from either side. But that is the only way to do it and maintain the aspect ratio.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
One has to be very careful how you resize and crop INTERLACED video. I really can't see a good way of doing this without first DEINTERLACING the PAL video THEN doing the CROP and RESIZE to get the proper NTSC 4:3 size.

You can then use the DGPulldown method of PAL to NTSC frame rate conversion.

[FulciLives]

Downloaded and install "AviSynth 2.5.6a" from this website ---> CLICK HERE
Note: You just need the EXE file.

You will also need the "Decomb" plug-in from this website ---> CLICK HERE

Just UNZIP the Decomb file into a FOLDER and call it DECOMB. I would put all AviSyth plug-ins in the same FOLDER to keep track of them all. For instance I have a FOLDER on my "C:" HDD called "DVD_STUFF" and then under that FOLDER I have a FOLDER for "DECOMB" and a FOLDER for this plug-in or that plug-in etc.

Now create your AviSynth script in Windows Notepad:

LoadPlugin("C:\DVD_STUFF\DECOMB\decomb.dll")
AviSource("C:\CAPTURES\filename.avi")
FieldDeinterlace()
Crop(96,0,-96,-0)
LanczosResize(720,480)

Line 1 loads the decomb.dll file. Put in the proper path.
Line 2 loads your DV AVI capture file. Put in the proper path and filename.
Line 3 deinterlaces. Note this MAY not be the best way to deinterlace PAL but it works.
Line 4 crop 96 from the left and 96 from the right and 0 from the top and bottom.
Line 5 Resize to 720x480

Feed this into an MPEG-2 DVD spec encoder such as HCenc (which works well and is freeware). The output will have a NTSC resolution but have a 25fps running time.

Now run the file through DGPulldown and select the pre-built option "25fps ---> 29.970fps"

The file that DGPulldown spits out is now NTSC compliant.

As for the audio ... demux from the DV AVI file (many ways of doing that although VirtualDubMod is a popular method).

Convert the demuxed audio file to AC-3 format using ffmpegGUI.

Combine the video and audio files using your choice of DVD Authoring software to make a NTSC 4:3 DVD Video.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[dvd3500]

Thanks.
I'll experiment with this and let you know. I will try 4:3 and 14:9 and post the results.
Thanks again.

[FulciLives]

Thanks.
I'll experiment with this and let you know. I will try 4:3 and 14:9 and post the results.
Thanks again.

Well I did 16x9 WS to 4:3 Full Screen because frankly I have no idea how to compute 14:9 WS

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[guns1inger]

You need to resize your original image to 720 x 360 to get 1.78 letterboxed, crop to 558 x 360, then resize to 720 x 416 and add 32 lines of border top and bottom.

[FulciLives]

You need to resize your original image to 720 x 360 to get 1.78 letterboxed, crop to 558 x 360, then resize to 720 x 416 and add 32 lines of border top and bottom.

Are you saying this is how you get 14:9 aka 1.56:1 ???

If so is this 1.56:1 in a 4:3 window or 1.56:1 in a 16:9 window?

I'm at work so I can't think ... too busy ummm working LOL

Also what the hell is 14:9 anyways? I mean I've heard of 1.66:1 and I have commercial made DVD Videos that use 1.66:1 (some 4:3 and some 16x9 WS anamorphic) but 14:9 is like ... what is it?

BBC TV uses it? Who the hell are they to make this up?!?!?1

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Alex_ander]

You need to resize your original image to 720 x 360 to get 1.78 letterboxed, crop to 558 x 360, then resize to 720 x 416 and add 32 lines of border top and bottom.

'resize to 720 x 416 and add 32' is correct layout for an NTSC letterboxed 14:9 image, but the previous steps for getting it from 16:9 are incorrect.
1. 558 is about a number (554, both NTSC and PAL)) for horisontal size of a 4:3 image letterboxed inside WS (720) and following this line would give stretching of such an image to 14/9 letterboxed.
2.By resizing to a smaller size (360) and then to a bigger one (416) you simply lose 56/416 of vertical resolution.

The image cropped to 14:9 should be 720x14:16=630 before resizing to 720x416, then adding 32+32 gives NTSC picture with correct proportions (at least same as they were at 16:9).

[FulciLives]

You need to resize your original image to 720 x 360 to get 1.78 letterboxed, crop to 558 x 360, then resize to 720 x 416 and add 32 lines of border top and bottom.

'resize to 720 x 416 and add 32' is correct layout for an NTSC letterboxed 14:9 image, but the previous steps for getting it from 16:9 are incorrect.
1. 558 is about a number (554, both NTSC and PAL)) for horisontal size of a 4:3 image letterboxed inside WS (720) and following this line would give stretching of such an image to 14/9 letterboxed.
2.By resizing to a smaller size (360) and then to a bigger one (416) you simply lose 56/416 of vertical resolution.

The image cropped to 14:9 should be 720x14:16=630 before resizing to 720x416, then adding 32+32 gives NTSC picture with correct proportions (at least same as they were at 16:9).

WHAT ?!?!?

A 4:3 1.33:1 Full Screen image encoded into a 16x9 WS anamophic DVD has a width of 528 ... not 558 nor 554. So if you look at your frame (720x480 or 720x576) you will see the image "squezzed" into the "center" 528 pixels with 96 pixels of black on either side.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[guns1inger]

I am assuming the outcome for this is a 4:3 encode with a letterboxed 14:9 image in it. So there is a conversion from 16:9 to 1.78 letterbox, then a crop and resize to get back to the larger (taller) 14:9 AR. This means losing some image from the left and right of frame. I'm sure there is a way to do this with one resize/crop/add borders combo, but at 1.40 am, my brain just wont do it.

The 14:9 measurement is one used by the BBC and some Australian networks as a compromise between true 16:9 and 4:3 for broadcasting in the analogue world while digital FTA takes hold. It is a bullshit format because the black bars are so small there is little value for widescreen owners. Thankfully some producers got smart. ER long ago shot with so much action across the entire frame that FTA analogue over here had to show it 1.78 letterbox

[Alex_ander]

You need to resize your original image to 720 x 360 to get 1.78 letterboxed, crop to 558 x 360, then resize to 720 x 416 and add 32 lines of border top and bottom.

'resize to 720 x 416 and add 32' is correct layout for an NTSC letterboxed 14:9 image, but the previous steps for getting it from 16:9 are incorrect.
1. 558 is about a number (554, both NTSC and PAL)) for horisontal size of a 4:3 image letterboxed inside WS (720) and following this line would give stretching of such an image to 14/9 letterboxed.
2.By resizing to a smaller size (360) and then to a bigger one (416) you simply lose 56/416 of vertical resolution.

The image cropped to 14:9 should be 720x14:16=630 before resizing to 720x416, then adding 32+32 gives NTSC picture with correct proportions (at least same as they were at 16:9).

WHAT ?!?!?

A 4:3 1.33:1 Full Screen image encoded into a 16x9 WS anamophic DVD has a width of 528 ... not 558 nor 554. So if you look at your frame (720x480 or 720x576) you will see the image "squezzed" into the "center" 528 pixels with 96 pixels of black on either side.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I meant 544, not 554 (that 558 made me 'mistype'), it is different from the exact 540 but is better being multiple of 16. BTW, it is used for DVB for 4:3 portions of broadcast and gives proper image on WS. Also sometimes useful for joining anamorphic and 4:3 - sourced videos in one title.

[guns1inger]

Turned of the PC to go to bed and the answer came to me. Tested with virtualdubmpeg (quickly) and it seems to work.

Someone with access to NTSC 16:9 material should test this

LoadPlugin("C:\DVD_STUFF\DECOMB\decomb.dll")
AviSource("C:\CAPTURES\filename.avi")
FieldDeinterlace()
Lanczos4Resize(740,416)
Crop(10,0,-10,0)
AddBorders(0,32,0,32)

This will adjust for widescreen to letterbox conversion and get correct sizing for inclusion in a 4:3 frame. It then crops off the extras from the left and right, and adds borders top and bottom to get a 4:4 frame back.

I am now going to bed (after 2 am here). I'll check back tomorrow to see if someone has tested this.

[FulciLives]

You need to resize your original image to 720 x 360 to get 1.78 letterboxed, crop to 558 x 360, then resize to 720 x 416 and add 32 lines of border top and bottom.

'resize to 720 x 416 and add 32' is correct layout for an NTSC letterboxed 14:9 image, but the previous steps for getting it from 16:9 are incorrect.
1. 558 is about a number (554, both NTSC and PAL)) for horisontal size of a 4:3 image letterboxed inside WS (720) and following this line would give stretching of such an image to 14/9 letterboxed.
2.By resizing to a smaller size (360) and then to a bigger one (416) you simply lose 56/416 of vertical resolution.

The image cropped to 14:9 should be 720x14:16=630 before resizing to 720x416, then adding 32+32 gives NTSC picture with correct proportions (at least same as they were at 16:9).

WHAT ?!?!?

A 4:3 1.33:1 Full Screen image encoded into a 16x9 WS anamophic DVD has a width of 528 ... not 558 nor 554. So if you look at your frame (720x480 or 720x576) you will see the image "squezzed" into the "center" 528 pixels with 96 pixels of black on either side.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I meant 544, not 554 (that 558 made me 'mistype'), it is different from the exact 540 but is better being multiple of 16. BTW, it is used for DVB for 4:3 portions of broadcast and gives proper image on WS. Also sometimes useful for joining anamorphic and 4:3 - sourced videos in one title.

It should be 528 ... not 540 or any other number.

Turned of the PC to go to bed and the answer came to me. Tested with virtualdubmpeg (quickly) and it seems to work.

Someone with access to NTSC 16:9 material should test this

Quote:

LoadPlugin("C:\DVD_STUFF\DECOMB\decomb.dll")
AviSource("C:\CAPTURES\filename.avi")
FieldDeinterlace()
Lanczos4Resize(740,416)
Crop(10,0,-10,0)
AddBorders(0,32,0,32)

This will adjust for widescreen to letterbox conversion and get correct sizing for inclusion in a 4:3 frame. It then crops off the extras from the left and right, and adds borders top and bottom to get a 4:4 frame back.

I am now going to bed (after 2 am here). I'll check back tomorrow to see if someone has tested this.

I am at work now but when I get home I'll try to play around somemore with the numbers (for 14:9) but I know my numbers for PAL 16x9 anamophic widescreen (1.78:1) to NTSC 4:3 Full Screen (1.33:1) are correct as given earlier in this thread.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Alex_ander]

LoadPlugin("C:\DVD_STUFF\DECOMB\decomb.dll")
AviSource("C:\CAPTURES\filename.avi")
FieldDeinterlace()
Lanczos4Resize(740,416)
Crop(10,0,-10,0)
AddBorders(0,32,0,32)

Have you forgotten to crop before? The image height is here for 14/9 but the resizing/cropping is still close to original. Seems it will make things tall. Look at this in the morning!

[Alex_ander]

It should be 528 ... not 540 or any other number.

It's arithmetics. Imagine WS as 12/9+4/9=16/9, the first part being your letterboxed 4:3 image. In horisontal dimension you have it as 12/16 of 720 pixels, or 540. This doesn't even depend on is it PAL, NTSC or smth.
How do you get 528? What does FitCD say (or would if it could)?

[FulciLives]

Below is a screen grab of FitCD

The source is a NTSC DVD that is 4:3 Full Screen 1.33:1 aspect ratio. For the output I have selected NTSC 16x9 WS anamorphic enhanced 1.78:1 aspect ratio.



As you can see the original 720x480 gets resized to 528x480 which is then padded out to 720x480.

On a 16x9 WS TV the image will appear in the correct aspect ratio and will fill the TV from "top to bottom" and be centered with equal amount of black on either side.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman