Canopus Procoder - Change FPS to MPEG-2 DVD problem

[spanky123]

Hi

I'm new to these forums. I've read the rules and had a look at all the guides and searched threads but can't find anything to help me

So. . . Here's my problem:

I got an XviD.avi at 23.97 fps and I'm trying to convert it to a PAL DVD Compliant MPEG-2 (25fps)

I'm trying to convert it using Canopus Procoder and the video length is decreased by quite a lot.

I think I know what's happening. Rather than converting each second of video from 24 fps to 25 fps by adding a frame and blending or something like that, Procoder is instead using only the frames it has from the source, therefore shortening the video by ~1/25 of the original length (I hope that makes sense)

How do I fix this ? So that the output is 25fps and still the same video length as the original

I know how to do this ok with CCE and avisynth scripts, but I don't know how to do it with Procoder.

Some help please
Thanks

[steveryan]

I think the video will be shorter as you are speeding it up, i've used Procoder to do format conversions and IMO it does a very good job.

[spanky123]

I think the video will be shorter as you are speeding it up, i've used Procoder to do format conversions and IMO it does a very good job.

Have you changed from NTSC to PAL or vice versa (ie. changed framerate) and kept the same video length ?

[steveryan]

TBH i'm no expert on format conversions but I always thought if you went from NTSC to PAL then the video length would be reduced due to PAL speed-up, I may be wrong though

[spanky123]

You can avoid it though.

If you're using Avisynth scripts you can use something like:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
AVISource("C:myvideotest.avi",audio=false)
ChangeFPS(25.000)


That changes the framerate nicely from 23.97 to 25.00 and it doesn't affect the video length. It stays the same

Anyone know how to do this in Procoder ?

[manono]

But why would you want to introduce duplicate frames to the encoded DVD and make it play jerky, have a slight stutter every second? If you don't want to speed the audio and video to 25fps, then much better would be to encode for 23.976fps and 720x576 and apply pulldown when done for 23.976->25. That'll also keep it the same length and allow you to keep the audio unchanged.

Procoder takes AviSynth scripts. Even though this guide is for encoding to DVD using DV sources, the Procoder section 3.3 should help you do it.

http://www.doom9.org/dv/guide.html

I don't use Procoder, so if you have any more trouble frameserving via AviSynth, maybe someone else can help. I'm not quite sure why you want to use Procoder anyway, since you already have experience with AviSynth and CCE.

[FulciLives]

Read the following two threads:

1.) THE HOLY GRAIL? ... A new method of PAL to NTSC conversion!

2.) PAL to NTSC problem

Now these threads cover 25fps to 23.976fps conversion but basically for 23.976fps to 25fps conversion you do the opposite of the guide.

As already stated by manono you simply encode to MPEG-2 DVD spec a 23.976fps 720x576 file then run DGPulldown and do a 23.976fps to 25fps "pulldown" and there you go.

Good Luck !!!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[spanky123]

You think CCE is better ?

I've encoded a few files (XviD and MPEG-2 Sources) with both and the quality's pretty perfect. I can't tell the difference between the outputs of each one. Maybe Procoder is a tiny bit softer but hardly any difference

Procoders a lot easier to use I think. I'm just starting off with CCE now. Seems to produce slightly sharper/better outputs and is a bit faster. There's gotta be some good settings to tweak CCE - there's so many options

I applied the 'Pulldown' Filter in the 'Video Filters' of Procoder and it's still the same - the video length changes

EDIT: Just seen your post fulcilives. Thanks
Can't this be done within Procoder ?

I'm not very confident with encoding to dvd-compliant mpeg-2 but at 23.97fps. I can't find the profile in Procoder. I'll have another look

Also, shouldn't my dvd be interlaced ? That guide makes it progessive. I thought the standard dvd is interlaced (for PAL 25 fps anyways)

[spanky123]

Another question, just off Procoder

With CCE, to go from 23.976 to 25 fps without changing the speed of the video, do I select 2:3 or 3:2 pulldown ?

[FulciLives]

Another question, just off Procoder

With CCE, to go from 23.976 to 25 fps without changing the speed of the video, do I select 2:3 or 3:2 pulldown ?

Again you want to resize the file to PAL DVD resolution (such as 720x576) but you want to leave it at 23.976fps and encode without 3:2 / 2:3 pulldown.

Afterwards you run the file through DGPulldown and select the "custom" option and enter 23.976fps ---> 25fps

A new file is generated (although it only takes a few minutes) that will now be PAL DVD compliant.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
You should use AviSynth for the resizing.

[manono]

Maybe Procoder is a tiny bit softer but hardly any difference.

(CCE) seems to produce slightly sharper/better outputs and is a bit faster.

There you have it. My opinion, anyway. There are some serious Procoder fans around here, so my opinion is by no means universally shared. And, perhaps, for certain kinds of video (poor sources where filtering and smoothing might be beneficial), Procoder might be preferred. I work with DVDs, and want as much of the sharpness and detail retained as possible. Procoder is also said to be good with interlaced video.

[spanky123]

Yes. They're both very good - the Best I've tried - a bit better than TMPGenc 3.0

I'm just trying to encode with CCE now, and it has ticked the option for 'pulldown' and i can't untick it. I've tried changin almost all other settings and it still sticks. I've selected framerate 23.976 in CCE.

My avs script is just this
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
AVISource("C:\Documents and Settings\ta1.avi",audio=false)
LanczosResize(720,576)

What am I doing wrong ?

EDIT: I unticked 'dvd' up top and have disabled pulldown. Will it still be dvd-compliant though when I'm done?

[FulciLives]

EDIT: I unticked 'dvd' up top and have disabled pulldown. Will it still be dvd-compliant though when I'm done?

That is exactly want you wanted to do!

Also are you sure your AviSynth script is correct i.e., the resize from AVI to DVD?

If not use FitCD. Here is my mini-guide on it: CLICK HERE

That ensures that you resize correctly.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[spanky123]

Yeah. Something was wrong with my avisynth script. I didn't have the audio=false thing in the avisource(. . .) part
AVISource("C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\ta1.avi",audio=false)
I didn't think it mattered. But now i know. So I got all that fixed up

My final script was:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
AVISource("C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\ta1.avi",audio=false)
LanczosResize(720,576)


That was accepted by CCE. I unticked the 'for dvd' option.
Select Framerate 23.976
And unticked 'pulldown'
I changed a couple other settings (in Advanced and Picture Quality) to those recommended in a guide i got from on here and doom9
Here's the settings I used:
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2739/cce1hk0.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4756/cce2rl8.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2605/cce3hy2.jpg
*Note that I selected Zigzag and Progressive Frame because the source is Progressive avi. Otherwise I would have left it to auto and unticked 'progressive frame'
Right ? My Settings Ok ?
Well they worked, so I guess they're ok

Then Encoded

Then I run the file through DGPulldown - I got nfi how that program does what it does, but it does a good job of it
Here's the settings I chose
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2606/dgpulldownwq3.jpg

And that outputted a nice smooth 25fps mpeg2 that seems to be dvd-compliant mpeg2 pal cos
I put it into TMPGenc DVD-Author and it accepted and authored fine - so i guess it was dvd-compliant.

Does what I've done sound alright ?

[spanky123]

[quote="FulciLives"]

Also are you sure your AviSynth script is correct i.e., the resize from AVI to DVD?

If not use FitCD. Here is my mini-guide on it: CLICK HERE

That ensures that you resize correctly.

I don't get why resizing is so complicated ?
Is it just so that the aspect ratio is exact and the picture don't seem stretched at all - because I'm not really fussed if it's a tiny bit off - I don't notice if there is a bit of extra stretching

Most of my avi sources are say 1024x576 or 624x352 or 640x360 or 592x336 which are pretty close to or exactly 16:9 and I can't tell the difference when they are resized to 720x576 (the picture still looks normal). Should I bother with resizing properly - adding borders or cropping to make it perfect ?

BTW. Because I make the avisynth script in Gordian Knot or AVSedit, I preview it before I encode to make sure they are not ever over-stretched

[FulciLives]

That is exactly how I do it. Although at the end of the AVI file ... to kill the audio ... you just need to add , false so for example you just need to do this:

AVISource("C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\ta1.avi", false)

Also I like to use "CLOSE ALL GOP's" but you don't have to use that setting (in your example pic you did not use it).

The only other comment I have is that when using AviSynth with CCE you should add this as your final line in the script: ConvertToYUY2()

That is for a progressive encode with a progressive source. If you have an interlaced source then you would instead use: ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

You should do that when your source is not already YUY2/YUV because that is the colorspace that CCE works in.

Anyways as far as doing a NTSC to PAL conversion ... you did it just fine! Just remember that this method only works when the source is 23.976fps and not 29.970fps (unless you can IVTC in the AviSynth script to make it 23.976fps).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

[quote="spanky123"]

Also are you sure your AviSynth script is correct i.e., the resize from AVI to DVD?

If not use FitCD. Here is my mini-guide on it: CLICK HERE

That ensures that you resize correctly.

I don't get why resizing is so complicated ?
Is it just so that the aspect ratio is exact and the picture don't seem stretched at all - because I'm not really fussed if it's a tiny bit off - I don't notice if there is a bit of extra stretching

Most of my avi sources are say 1024x576 or 624x352 or 640x360 or 592x336 which are pretty close to or exactly 16:9 and I can't tell the difference when they are resized to 720x576 (the picture still looks normal). Should I bother with resizing properly - adding borders or cropping to make it perfect ?

BTW. Because I make the avisynth script in Gordian Knot or AVSedit, I preview it before I encode to make sure they are not ever over-stretched

You need to use something like FitCD to ensure that you are resizing correctly.

This conversion that you just did ... can you remember what the AVI resolution was?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[spanky123]

Also I like to use "CLOSE ALL GOP's" but you don't have to use that setting (in your example pic you did not use it).

The only other comment I have is that when using AviSynth with CCE you should add this as your final line in the script: ConvertToYUY2()

That is for a progressive encode with a progressive source. If you have an interlaced source then you would instead use: ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

You should do that when your source is not already YUY2/YUV because that is the colorspace that CCE works in.

Anyways as far as doing a NTSC to PAL conversion ... you did it just fine! Just remember that this method only works when the source is 23.976fps and not 29.970fps (unless you can IVTC in the AviSynth script to make it 23.976fps).

Firstly, I heard something about Closed GOP's being necessary only for multi-angle video or something like that. I'm doing pretty basic dvd's with a couple menus, video, maybe 2 audio streams and sometimes a couple subtitle tracks.
I also heard that 'Closed GOP's' doesn't compress as well

Secondly, That ConvertToYUY2, is it necessary ? I thought someone said earlier that CCE does this conversion automatically.

Thirdly, I think you said to output from CCE in progressive 23.976 first. Isn't it better to be interlaced or is there no point - as the source is progresive ?
What if the souce was interlaced - 25fps - so no framerate conversion is needed ? Should I deinterlace in CCE or leave it interlaced ?

This conversion that you just did ... can you remember what the AVI resolution was?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

It was 592x336

So it's slightly off 16:9, but I can't tell the difference

Thanks for your Help. Hope I'm not annoyin you with all the questions

[FulciLives]

Firstly, I heard something about Closed GOP's being necessary only for multi-angle video or something like that. I'm doing pretty basic dvd's with a couple menus, video, maybe 2 audio streams and sometimes a couple subtitle tracks.
I also heard that 'Closed GOP's' doesn't compress as well

I prefer to use CLOSED GOP's but maybe it's just me LOL because the things that you say are considered to be true but at the same time I have seen much documentation that seems to indicate that using CLOSED GOP's is "safer" than using OPEN GOP's regardless of multi-angle video etc.

Secondly, That ConvertToYUY2, is it necessary ? I thought someone said earlier that CCE does this conversion automatically.

It is better that you do it in the script. This is universally accepted.

Thirdly, I think you said to output from CCE in progressive 23.976 first. Isn't it better to be interlaced or is there no point - as the source is progresive ?
What if the souce was interlaced - 25fps - so no framerate conversion is needed ? Should I deinterlace in CCE or leave it interlaced ?

Progressive is better than interlaced. Period. However video can be progressive or interlaced. When doing NTSC to PAL you cannot use the method you just used unless the NTSC source is progressive (23.976fps). If the NTSC is 29.970fps interlaced then there is a way known as IVTC for short where you can make it 23.976fps progressive. So if you have a NTSC source that is 29.970fps interlaced but you can IVTC it back to 23.976fps progressive then you are A-OK ... unfortunately the IVTC process only works on some 29.970fps interlaced NTSC sources. Some sources that are 29.970fps interlaced NTSC cannot be made 23.976fps progressive.

As for PAL it is always 25fps but can be interlaced or progressive. Since you need PAL you can leave a PAL source at 25fps and if it is interlaced then leave it that way but if it is progressive then also leave it that way.

This conversion that you just did ... can you remember what the AVI resolution was?

It was 592x336

So it's slightly off 16:9, but I can't tell the difference

592x336 is an aspect ratio of 1.7619 according to FitCD. Again according to FitCD the best way to resize it is as follows:

LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336)
AddBorders(24,8,24,8)

That will maintain the aspect ratio and give you a 16x9 WS anamorphic NTSC DVD (with an aspect ratio of 1.7603 which is as close as you can get to 1.7619). It does leave a bit of black all around the image but due to TV OVERSCAN that really is not an issue ... in fact in this case it would be a benefit.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[spanky123]

This conversion that you just did ... can you remember what the AVI resolution was?

It was 592x336

So it's slightly off 16:9, but I can't tell the difference

592x336 is an aspect ratio of 1.7619 according to FitCD. Again according to FitCD the best way to resize it is as follows:

LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336)
AddBorders(24,8,24,8)

That will maintain the aspect ratio and give you a 16x9 WS anamorphic NTSC DVD (with an aspect ratio of 1.7603 which is as close as you can get to 1.7619). It does leave a bit of black all around the image but due to TV OVERSCAN that really is not an issue ... in fact in this case it would be a benefit.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Ok. Understood. Also, some of my videos are extra wide screen, so stretching to 16:9 will seriously affect the picture. I'd have to add borders and resize properly

About LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336), how come there's 6 parameters ?
You don't need to put the original resolution in there do you ?

[FulciLives]

This conversion that you just did ... can you remember what the AVI resolution was?

It was 592x336

So it's slightly off 16:9, but I can't tell the difference

592x336 is an aspect ratio of 1.7619 according to FitCD. Again according to FitCD the best way to resize it is as follows:

LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336)
AddBorders(24,8,24,8)

That will maintain the aspect ratio and give you a 16x9 WS anamorphic NTSC DVD (with an aspect ratio of 1.7603 which is as close as you can get to 1.7619). It does leave a bit of black all around the image but due to TV OVERSCAN that really is not an issue ... in fact in this case it would be a benefit.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Ok. Understood. Also, some of my videos are extra wide screen, so stretching to 16:9 will seriously affect the picture. I'd have to add borders and resize properly

About LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336), how come there's 6 parameters ?
You don't need to put the original resolution in there do you ?

That's how FitCD does it. It doesn't have to be done that way though.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336)

The first 2 numbers are the resize. The final 4 numbers are the crop. Since, in that particular example, nothing is being cropped, it can be written instead as:

LanczosResize(672,464)

Folllowed by the AddBorders to bring it up to 720x480. And even if some of your movies, like that one, are close to a 16:9 ratio, if you care about quality, won't you feel better knowing that you've done your best to give it a correct AR? And as you said, the even wider ones have to be resized with black borders added, or they'll just look stupid and amateurish when played. You may as well learn to do it right from the beginning.

[spanky123]

LanczosResize(672,464,0,0,592,336)

The first 2 numbers are the resize. The final 4 numbers are the crop. Since, in that particular example, nothing is being cropped, it can be written instead as:

LanczosResize(672,464)

Folllowed by the AddBorders to bring it up to 720x480. And even if some of your movies, like that one, are close to a 16:9 ratio, if you care about quality, won't you feel better knowing that you've done your best to give it a correct AR? And as you said, the even wider ones have to be resized with black borders added, or they'll just look stupid and amateurish when played. You may as well learn to do it right from the beginning.

I agree with the 'may aswell learn to do it right from the beginning'. I'll do that

Big thanks to both for all your help. Time to test a few

[spanky123]

Another quick question, can you make an avisynth script of an mp4 source ?

If yes, What's the script ?

[manono]

Hi-

I don't work with .mp4, so I'm not sure, but probably DirectShowSource can open them. Somebody with more experience may be able to answer definitively:

http://www.avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/corefilters/directshowsource.htm

[spanky123]

Aaah. I've just been trying a few. I been using the Same script from above.

AVISource("C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\ta1.avi",audio=false)
LanczosResize(720,576)

As you can see, I'm already resizing in the script.
However, if I don't select 'Resize' in CCE settings, then the video seems squashed when played in WMP (as if it's using a 1:1 pixel ratio). In MPClassic and VLC it looks normal and is played back with the correct 16:9 AR

Should I be ticking 'Resize' in the CCE settings too ?
Because when I do, it plays back fine in WMP too

[manono]

I thought you said they were .mp4. Of course AviSource can (usually) open AVIs. Did you mean to say MPEG-4 (i. e., XviD or DivX), by chance? So the AVI resolution is such that a straight resize to 720x576 will keep the AR? Maybe you know this already, but FitCD is perhaps the best way to get the crop/resize/addborders numbers.

Should I be ticking 'Resize' in the CCE settings too ?

I never do. You've already resized it in the script. And I trust WMP about as far as I can throw it.

[spanky123]

I thought you said they were .mp4. Of course AviSource can (usually) open AVIs. Did you mean to say MPEG-4 (i. e., XviD or DivX), by chance? So the AVI resolution is such that a straight resize to 720x576 will keep the AR? Maybe you know this already, but FitCD is perhaps the best way to get the crop/resize/addborders numbers

Oops. Sorry. Bad wording from me. I did mean .mp4 container (x264) but I shouldn't have mentioned it in here just yet. I should just stick to avi (XviD) for now. Once I've got this under control I'll start worrying bout mp4.

So yeah. We're still working with xvid.avi's

Should I be ticking 'Resize' in the CCE settings too ?

I never do. You've already resized it in the script. And I trust WMP about as far as I can throw it.

LOL. What should I trust? Should I trust Cyberlink PowerDVD or MPC or VLC ?
I just wanna know what it'll look like when i put it onto dvd (or will that depend on the AR I choose during Authoring?)

[manono]

I test my DVDs in PowerDVD, and everything else (AVI, MPG, MPV, M2V, VOB) in Media Player Classic. VLC is also very good. If I knew how to entirely remove Windows Media Player from my computer, I would.

[spanky123]

Thanks for all the help guys. I think I've got it all figured now. Tried a few and they've all turned out good

Just one last thing. Should I be deinterlacing if the source is mpeg-2 720x576 interlaced 25fps ?

Also FulciLives, what if the source is 29.970 fps progressive. Can I still just use DGPulldown to convert to 25 fps progressive ?

PS. Here's my latest avs (without using FitToCD this time):
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\AviSynthPlugins\T omsMoComp.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\AviSynthPlugins\U ndot.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\Video\test.d2v", idct=0)
TomsMoComp(1,5,1)
crop(8,6,704,564)
LanczosResize(720,576)
Undot()
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

Ok ?