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  1. Member
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    Hi, i would like to convert a PAL to NTSC dvd, just the movie. I was wondering what software would do the conversion with the least amount of quality loss, i dont care how long it takes.
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  2. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    That distinction would go to Avisynth.
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  3. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    Have a read of this. It is the most foolproof, reliable method that avoids all the pitfalls of audio sync problems etc.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=261056

    Avisynth would be my tool of choice for the resizing, ProCoder or CCE for encoding, then DGPulldown.

    When you are encoding, do not use standard DVD templates, as you will be encoding NTSC resolution a PAL framerates, which is not allowed in these cases. You will rectify this later with DGPulldown.
    Read my blog here.
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  4. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    One place to look, then you can be better informed to decide which method you wish to use: https://www.videohelp.com/guides.php?howtoselect=4#4;41

    MPEG PAL>NTSC is difficult enough. If you add in the DVD format, and you want to preserve menus and original DVD structure, it can be a lot of work.

    Best would probably be to use a PAL+NTSC compatible DVD player and not mess with any conversions.

    And welcome to our forums.
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    Originally Posted by celes
    Hi, i would like to convert a PAL to NTSC dvd, just the movie. I was wondering what software would do the conversion with the least amount of quality loss, i dont care how long it takes.
    my personal opinion, for what it's worth, is to avoid doing it if you can. however, if you absolutely must, my search would start and stop at ProCoder and if you plan on doing this repeatedly (i.e. you have alot of PAL DVD's you plan on converting) i would recommend you invest in one of these:

    http://www.canopus.com/products/FireCoder/index.php

    the cost $400, but they are worth their weight in gold for projects such as this.
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    ive decided on procoder, does anyone know where i can find some guides. thank you all for replying
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    Originally Posted by celes
    ive decided on procoder, does anyone know where i can find some guides. thank you all for replying
    you shouldn't need a guide, just choose your input file, your output format, click encode and wait until it's done, the user interface is fairly intuitive, you should be able to figure out what to do in 5 minutes.
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    Originally Posted by deadrats
    Originally Posted by celes
    ive decided on procoder, does anyone know where i can find some guides. thank you all for replying
    you shouldn't need a guide, just choose your input file, your output format, click encode and wait until it's done, the user interface is fairly intuitive, you should be able to figure out what to do in 5 minutes.
    i dont understand why the target is 24gb.

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    heres the target settings

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    heres the target precalculated size

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  11. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    I don't know why it is heading for such a large size - it certainly doesn't make sense with the numbers you are using. I also think you will be disappointed going from 25 fps to a hard encoded 29.97 fps. This means that for every second of footage you have to create 4.97 duplicate frames - effectively one sixth of the video. Don't be surprised if you get jerkiness in the pans and zooms, and audio sync problems.
    Read my blog here.
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  12. Don't be surprised if you get jerkiness in the pans and zooms, and audio sync problems.

    Or blends throughout the entire thing. Both are terrible ways to make the conversion, although for different reasons. BJ_M says there's a way to have Procoder make a proper PAL2NTSC conversion, but that sure isn't it. I just love it when these Procoder fanboys swear up and down that it's the best and only way to do the conversion, when in reality, they're setting it up to be as lousy as other automatic methods. Although I don't use Procoder, if it lets you set the resolution to 720x480, and keep the framerate at 25fps, that's how I'd suggest doing it. Then run DGPulldown afterwards for 25->29.97fps.

    For the proper way to do it, the first response by Soopafresh points the way.

    For a fairly easy way, if you have TMPGEnc, FulciLives' guide will work:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=300144

    And he's working on a better one using AviSynth to frameserve into the HCEnc.
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  13. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    You can use ProCoder to encode 720 x 480 @ 25 fps, and get good quality out of the exercise. The secret is to not use the DVD presets, but to just encode a mpeg. You have to make sure the rest of your settings are compliant, but that is not hard to do.
    Read my blog here.
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  14. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    It's actually dangerous to have someone as clueless as deadrats around especially when newbies start believing him.

    This guy is a menace and no I am not being over dramatic ... I mean it!

    As for the PAL DVD to NTSC conversion guide with AviSynth and HCenc ... it's something I intend to do yes but haven't started it yet.

    However I have enough AviSynth guides out there that most people should be able to figure out how to do it with their encoder of choice and then there is the TMPGEnc Plus guide which is about as detailed a guide as you will find on the topic. Until I "replace" it with the AviSynth/HCenc guide LOL

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  15. Until I "replace" it with the AviSynth/HCenc guide LOL

    Hehe, so you're as far along on your guide as I am on my PAL2NTSC-Keeping-Everything-And-Using-All-Freeware Guide.
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  16. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Until I "replace" it with the AviSynth/HCenc guide LOL

    Hehe, so you're as far along on your guide as I am on my PAL2NTSC-Keeping-Everything-And Using-All-Freeware Guide.
    Hey your vapor guide may well supplant my own vapor guide

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  17. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    If nothing else, all this vapor is clearing my sinuses
    Read my blog here.
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    "Although I don't use Procoder, if it lets you set the resolution to 720x480, and keep the framerate at 25fps, that's how I'd suggest doing it. Then run DGPulldown afterwards for 25->29.97fps."

    i tried to do that but it still gives me the wrong precalculated size. im sorry to keep asking for help but i know how long it takes to do something like this and i cant afford to go through trial and error in order to figure it out.

    if i do use Avisynth will i get the best quality. im planning on converting a lot so i want to learn the best way of doing it, it doesnt matter what software it is, just as long as its not hardware .
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    Originally Posted by celes
    Originally Posted by deadrats
    Originally Posted by celes
    ive decided on procoder, does anyone know where i can find some guides. thank you all for replying
    you shouldn't need a guide, just choose your input file, your output format, click encode and wait until it's done, the user interface is fairly intuitive, you should be able to figure out what to do in 5 minutes.
    i dont understand why the target is 24gb.

    i do. look at the source list and you'll see that you have selected the entire 2+ hour movie 5 times, which means you are telling ProCoder to encode 10+ hours worth of video. Procoder has a peculiarity in that if you select any of theVOB's in a given folder, it automatically sees the entire movie and loads it as the source. thus, all you need to do is load the first VOB in the folder and then choose your output settings.

    it should be noted that many around here don't see eye to eye with me, primarily because they like doing things in convaluted, half assed ways and they see me as someone that doesn't know what he's talking about. so here's what i suggest:

    create a temp folder with only 1 VOB (the first one is fine) and load that into ProCoder (this way it only loads a small part of the movie for testing purposes). then convert it to NTSC as i said to do it, i.e. just choose the appropriate settings in ProCoder and let it do it's thing (though you shouldn't use "mastering" quality primarily because it's really, really slow) and then do the conversion following one of the guides the other guys linked to and compare the results for yourself.

    the guides they linked to are great if you like doing things the way someone without a professional application does things (let's face it, avisynth and HC are for people that can't afford ProCoder) but me, i have a life and more importantly, i'm not stuck 10 years in the past.

    try both out and let us know what you think.
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  20. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    More insane nonsense from deadrats.

    Why don't you go to a forum where you actually know a bit about the topic at hand?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    More insane nonsense from deadrats.

    Why don't you go to a forum where you actually know a bit about the topic at hand?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    because then i wouldn't be allowed in any online forum. seriously though, which part of that last post do you consider "insane nonsense"? it's my fault you don't understand what an aspect ratio is? it's my fault you like doing things in an ass backwards way?

    i will grant you one thing about my advice on converting PAL to NTSC and admit that i failed to mention that if he really wants to convert the conversion should be 720x576 25 fps --> 720x480 23.97 fps, in other words he should be converting to true NTSC framerate and not to the NTSC broadcast frame rate of 29.97 fps, so for that i apologize.

    as a side note. you're just mad because i pointed out that your guides are useless to anyone that wants to do things the proper way. but you're not the only one that does things in a silly way. this forum, doom9 and a host of others are filled with kids (there's no way it's adults with a fully functioning brain that does such things) that think it's perfectly alright to take a DVD and transcode it to xvid with ac3 audio and mux the streams in an avi container, think it makes perfect sense to crop the black borders they see on the screen so that "they don't waste bitrate encoding nothing" (<--- this is simultaneously one of the funniest and dumbest things i have ever heard and the sad thing is how religiously some believe it to be true), think it's perfectly alright to crop a video steam or resize it in a vain attempt to "maintain the aspect ratio" and other such silliness.

    as a general rule of thumb, i like doing things as lossless as possible. that means what goes comes out after the encoding process should match what went in. that means the dimensions of the video remain unchanged and as a general rule of thumb the interlace status should remain unchanged. now if you like butchering your video and hacking it up into all sort of crazy dimensions then knock yourself out. but i'm not going anywhere, and if you feel the need, anytime i give anyone advice, feel free to throw your two cents in and advise then to do a hatchet job on the video. i'm sure they will be very gratefull for your help.
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    Originally Posted by guns1inger
    Have a read of this. It is the most foolproof, reliable method that avoids all the pitfalls of audio sync problems etc.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=261056

    Avisynth would be my tool of choice for the resizing, ProCoder or CCE for encoding, then DGPulldown.

    When you are encoding, do not use standard DVD templates, as you will be encoding NTSC resolution a PAL framerates, which is not allowed in these cases. You will rectify this later with DGPulldown.


    I followed this method with CCE twice.No bad frames, No templates No deviation, and I used TMPEnc DVD Author. Burned at 4x on Verbatim. The audio was out of sync on both files. I'll stick with VSO's latest ConvertX software. Not quite as good as CCE, but at least they're are no sync problems. In my opinion It's not worth the hassle.
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  23. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    @deadrats
    You are totally and utterly clueless. So much of what you say is just plain wrong. It makes me mad because you may fool unsuspecting newbies into attempting to mimic your inferior ideas/concepts about video. I'm trying to pass along some not-so-easy-to-acquire knowledge and it doesn't help when a freakin' moron such as yourself gums up the works and confuses people. In my opinion you are every bit as dangerous as the *******s that tell people to download this or download that to "fix" a computer problem only to have the download be a virus. You know VIDEOHELP.COM once banned someone who attempted to offer "help" by telling someone to drop into DOS and type in a line of code that would have reformatted the HDD with no warning message. You are no different even though your damage appears to be more from cluelessness and egotism than outright fraud. That still doesn't make it any less damaging.

    @ROBERT BLACK
    If you had A/V sync issues then either the video encoding was done improperly OR the delay value of the audio file needs to be adjusted.

    Depending on how you ripped the movie and how the movie was first authored to begin with can affect the audio in such a way so that you need to sometimes adjust the delay value of the audio file to get sync. Most of the time it is not an issue but when it is an issue it is as simple as correcting the delay value (the value that indicates if the audio should start slightly before or after the video) and once that is set correctly (and finding the correct value can be a bit hit or miss) it should be in sync from start to end.

    It's probably best to rip with DVD Decrypter in IFO mode and if the movie has copy protection issues that keep you from using DVD Decrypter as is then you can try RipIt4Me in "movie only" mode. RipIt4Me is a "front end" to DVD Decrypter that gives DVD Decrypter the ability to beat newer forms of copy protection.

    However some people do the video part wrong because many encoders (and CCE is one of them) have a special DVD COMPLIANCE mode (not a template per se) that will force full NTSC or PAL compliance i.e., it will not allow the creation of a hybrid video file but when doing PAL to NTSC the DGPulldown method you need to create a hybrid video file (one with NTSC resolution but PAL frame rate).

    Anyways those are the two most common mistakes people run into when doing this kind of conversion.

    My suggestion is to load the encoded video file into VirtualDubMod or GSpot etc. and double check that the file is indeed a proper hybrid before doing the DGPulldown step.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    Procoder has a peculiarity in that if you select any of theVOB's in a given folder, it automatically sees the entire movie and loads it as the source. thus, all you need to do is load the first VOB in the folder and then choose your output settings.
    i tried that and after 6hrs it gave me VTS_01_1_MPEG 150mb, 5min long. So i think there something wrong with the way procoder calculates the sizes, ill know 12hrs from now.

    PAL to NTSC the DGPulldown method you need to create a hybrid video file (one with NTSC resolution but PAL frame rate).
    thats the plan if the size works, i read one of your guides and it made sense so i will try that.

    Also i wanna thank you guys again for your help.
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    @deadrats
    You are totally and utterly clueless. So much of what you say is just plain wrong. It makes me mad because you may fool unsuspecting newbies into attempting to mimic your inferior ideas/concepts about video. I'm trying to pass along some not-so-easy-to-acquire knowledge and it doesn't help when a freakin' moron such as yourself gums up the works and confuses people. In my opinion you are every bit as dangerous as the *******s that tell people to download this or download that to "fix" a computer problem only to have the download be a virus. You know VIDEOHELP.COM once banned someone who attempted to offer "help" by telling someone to drop into DOS and type in a line of code that would have reformatted the HDD with no warning message. You are no different even though your damage appears to be more from cluelessness and egotism than outright fraud. That still doesn't make it any less damaging.
    i'll tell you what, i'll give you the opportunity to publicly prove that i am completely clueless and give you the opportunity to "educate" me. i will post a number of things about video conversion, things i know you disagree with. feel free to "correct" each and every "misconception", but please provide some proof (not some guide you wrote, not what some other poster thinks, but some cold hard incontravertible proof). this should be fun:

    deadrats says (1): you should never resize a DVD when converting it to another format.

    deadrats' reason: what ever size the video starts out in should be the size it ends up in. if a video is made up of 720 horizontal pixels and 480 vertical pixels and each pixel (a pixel is nothing more than a single point in a graphic image <---definition straight from wikipedia) has an aspect ratio of 4:3 (meaning that it's 4 times as wide for every 3 times as high) then resizing the video to 640x480 1:1 in an attempt to maintain a 4:3 ratio is flat out stupid. the 4:3 aspect ratio refers to the pixel aspect ratio and not the ratio between the width and height of the video. because of this attempting to "correct" the image by changing the dimensions of the video belies a basic misunderstanding of the difference between pixel aspect ratio and image ratio.

    deadrats says (2): you should never crop a video in a retarded attempt to remove the black borders.

    deadrats' reason: as above, if the video stream is of a certain dimension prior to it being transcoded then it should be the same dimensions after it's encoded. the reason black borders appear during playback on a pc monitor is not because the black areas are part of the video stream and need to be cropped out, it's because the DVD was encoded with it's intended display being a tv that has pixel aspect ratios of either 4:3 or 16:9 and then trying to output that stream to a display with pixel aspect ratio of 1:1. however, all transcodes should be undertaken as if you were trying to archive the DVD, meaning that at some point in the future you may need to put the movie in a format that can be viewed in a next generation HD-DVD/Blu-ray player (both formats support VC-1, H264 and MPEG-2, that's why i also say that all transcodes should be to one of these formats) and thus it behooves an enthusiast to maintain the original dimensions and pixel aspect ratio.

    deadrats says (3): there is no "bitrate wasted encoding black borders".

    deadrats' reason: the black borders are the absence of bitrate, the absence of pixels, it takes 0 pixels to represent the black areas. a simple way of convincing yourself (other than scanning the source code for the various media players) is to realize that the black borders look exactly the same as when the monitor is turned off. this leads to a topic i have some knowledge in: black is the absence of light, it takes zero information to represent nothingness. this holds true in computer science as well, the black areas are the absence of any bitrate whatsoever.

    Fulci: i know you have some rather strong feelings about what i just posted. come on, let's have some fun and prove that you know more than me. anyone else that wishes to join in the fun of "educating" me feel free, just remember, back up your arguments with some cold hard facts, not some guide you wrote and not what some other poster said.

    -deadrats.
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    Originally Posted by celes
    Procoder has a peculiarity in that if you select any of theVOB's in a given folder, it automatically sees the entire movie and loads it as the source. thus, all you need to do is load the first VOB in the folder and then choose your output settings.
    i tried that and after 6hrs it gave me VTS_01_1_MPEG 150mb, 5min long. So i think there something wrong with the way procoder calculates the sizes, ill know 12hrs from now.

    PAL to NTSC the DGPulldown method you need to create a hybrid video file (one with NTSC resolution but PAL frame rate).
    thats the plan if the size works, i read one of your guides and it made sense so i will try that.

    Also i wanna thank you guys again for your help.
    i have been using ProCoder for years now, starting with the first version and it's one of the few applications that i have seen that always reports the movie length correctly.

    here's a silly question, you wouldn't happen to have access to an FTP server where you could upload the files? if you do, i'll be more than happy to convert the DVD for you and FTP the finished product.

    this would also settle the question of whether i know what i'm doing once and for all.
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    Originally Posted by deadrats
    deadrats says (3): there is no "bitrate wasted encoding black borders".

    deadrats' reason: the black borders are the absence of bitrate, the absence of pixels, it takes 0 pixels to represent the black areas. a simple way of convincing yourself (other than scanning the source code for the various media players) is to realize that the black borders look exactly the same as when the monitor is turned off. this leads to a topic i have some knowledge in: black is the absence of light, it takes zero information to represent nothingness. this holds true in computer science as well, the black areas are the absence of any bitrate whatsoever.
    I'll start with this. You want to know how black borders use bitrate? Taking an avisynth script and if you apply a heavy filter on a black screen video, then send it to your encoder....the black changes composition. It isn't a true black anymore, or as you say "the same when the monitor is turned off". If it didn't use any bitrate then it would keep with the same composition. Black borders are a part of the video resolution, and part of the picture when encoded. So yes it uses bitrate.
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    deadrats: upload a sample of a pal to ntsc conversion using procoder, and I will go through 30 consecutive frames at any point. The source must be progressive 720x576 with 25fps. So if I see duplicate frames, blended frames, then you are wasting bits this "expensive" encoder does when encoding.
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    Originally Posted by Pinstripes23
    Originally Posted by deadrats
    deadrats says (3): there is no "bitrate wasted encoding black borders".

    deadrats' reason: the black borders are the absence of bitrate, the absence of pixels, it takes 0 pixels to represent the black areas. a simple way of convincing yourself (other than scanning the source code for the various media players) is to realize that the black borders look exactly the same as when the monitor is turned off. this leads to a topic i have some knowledge in: black is the absence of light, it takes zero information to represent nothingness. this holds true in computer science as well, the black areas are the absence of any bitrate whatsoever.
    I'll start with this. You want to know how black borders use bitrate? Taking an avisynth script and if you apply a heavy filter on a black screen video, then send it to your encoder....the black changes composition. It isn't a true black anymore, or as you say "the same when the monitor is turned off". If it didn't use any bitrate then it would keep with the same composition. Black borders are a part of the video resolution, and part of the picture when encoded. So yes it uses bitrate.
    not bad, but another (and more logical) explanation is that the original black screen video had no bitrate and you added bitrate when you added a filter. true black screen, by definition, can only have a bitrate of 0, when you added the filter you added color and/or texture (that's why it changed composition) and then yes, it now has bitrate.

    here's a simple question, what is the bitrate of the black borders? if they use up bitrate then you should be able to tell me how much bitrate is being used.

    furthermore, assume you have a DVD encoded to 720x480 16:9, that is encoded to a constant video bitrate of 8500 Kb/s. if you play said dvd on a pc and display the output to your computer monitor, you will see black borders at the top and the bottom. are you telling me that the total bitrate of the image being displayed is now 8500 Kb/s + some additional bitrate for the black borders? of course not, noone would think such a thing. so then why do people believe that transcoding such a DVD to let's say H.264 at 720x480 16:9 would now cause the displayed black borders to take up bitrate? show me some proof, anything that makes you believe such a silly thing.
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    Originally Posted by Pinstripes23
    deadrats: upload a sample of a pal to ntsc conversion using procoder, and I will go through 30 consecutive frames at any point. The source must be progressive 720x576 with 25fps. So if I see duplicate frames, blended frames, then you are wasting bits this "expensive" encoder does when encoding.
    first i don't have a PAL progressive DVD. second, if you convert PAL 25 fps to broadcast NTSC 29.97 fps, then by definition you must have duplicate frames. however, i was assuming (perhaps erroneously) that he intended to convert to true NTSC 23.97 fps. since PAL is 25 fps, international cinema rate is 24 fps and true NTSC is 23.97 fps, ProCoder can handle that conversion without breaking a sweat, without any blending, audio sync problems or the rest of the problems that can potentially happen with such a conversion.

    maybe i should have been a bit clearer when i told him to use ProCoder and that he wouldn't have any problems. it never occurred to me that someone may actually be thinking of converting PAL to broadcast NTSC.
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