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  1. Member luigi2000's Avatar
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    eBay sellers in England of Disney's Song of the South on VHS claim that these tapes will play on many VHS machines in North America.

    How usual is it for consumer VHS machines to play PAL format on NTSC displays?

    Is the rendered motion smooth? Is the color faithful? Can the analog signal be captured?

    I'll appreciate any knowledgeable comment.
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    I don't know about knowledgeable comment but my experience has been that an NTSC VHS player will NOT be a workable solution unless you have a player that is "worldwide" or multisystem.

    Of course, it's just a tape so any VHS player will "play" any tape but you won't get a picture worth watching.

    I think on the capture front you have the same problem, you need to be able to play the PAL tape in order to capture it. If you can play it then anything is possible otherwise garbage in - garbage out.
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  3. PAL playback on NTSC VCRs purchased in the US is VERY RARE.

    NTSC playback on PAL VCRs is more common.

    Check with your VCR's manual!!!!
    John Miller
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  4. Member ntscuser's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by luigi2000
    eBay sellers in England of Disney's Song of the South on VHS claim that these tapes will play on many VHS machines in North America.
    Well, they would say that wouldn't they since they are selling it?
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  5. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    If the VHS tape you are purchasing is a PAL format VHS tape and you live in the USA then you are out-of-luck. You might as well not buy it unless you intend to spend a lot of money on new hardware.

    You would need a multi-system VHS VCR. You can actually get a decent 6-head Hi-Fi Stereo multi-system VHS VCR for around $150 US Dollars + shipping. The only problem ... it will play that PAL VHS as PAL. That probably doesn't do you no good UNLESS you have a computer based capture system that can capture PAL format video. If you do then you can capture it and either burn a PAL DVD-R or convert it to NTSC first and burn a NTSC DVD-R. The later is a bit difficult but can be done. The former will work because there are USA models of DVD players that can play a PAL DVD and convert to NTSC on playback.

    But this assumes that you will spend $150 US Dollars + on a multi-system VHS VCR and have a computer capture system capable of PAL video capture. Then you either need a DVD player that does PAL to NTSC or you need to learn the difficult task of converting PAL to NTSC on a computer in software.

    There are a lot of "ifs" in there.

    The other option is to buy a Samsung SV-5000W VCR which is a multi-system VHS VCR that can play a PAL format VHS and output as NTSC. Unfortunately the price for this bad boy is close to $400 US Dollars last time I looked into it.

    All in all it seems pointless for this one title which is probably a bootleg VHS anyways.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  6. Converting PAL VHS to NTSC DVD is easy if it is film... which Song of the South is. Just write an AviSynth script which slows it down to 23.976 FPS and use BeSweet to adjust the audio. Pretty straight forward. Oh yeah, gotta resize it to 720x480. In fact, I did this very thing with this film in this format.


    Darryl
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    Why not just get an NTSC DVD copy such as:
    http://auctions.overstock.com/item/35310313
    There are businesses that will capture/convert the PAL tape for you though.
    Also Amazon has a page for the Disney DVD release which was rumored for ~November, 2006 release.

    I would just buy the DVD either for 35 or 200 bucks or wait until it is oficially released.
    The PAL/NTSC tape PQ's are terribly inferior to DVD.
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  8. Member ntscuser's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dphirschler
    Converting PAL VHS to NTSC DVD is easy if it is film... which Song of the South is.
    You need to able to play the film back first which, if you haven't got a PAL-capable VHS player, you can't do!
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  9. The bootleg dvd sucks ass. It's made from the Hong Kong LD which is a 3:2 NTSC converted to PAL. And on top of that, the colors are not too good. It looks a bit washed out. Heck, if you want it that bad, I will GIVE you my bootleg that I bought if you pay for shipping. I like my DVD made from the VHS way better.

    As far as the Amazon rumor, it only rumor. No official announcement has been made by Disney other than that they aren't going to release it "at this time."


    Darryl
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    $35 for a bootleg is somewhat steep also.
    Maybe you can burn a copy of Your DVD (VHS Cap?) for the original poster if he pays for the shipping, media, and something for your time?
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  11. Member luigi2000's Avatar
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    Converting PAL VHS to NTSC DVD is easy if it is film... which Song of the South is. Just write an AviSynth script which slows it down to 23.976 FPS and use BeSweet to adjust the audio.
    Hello Darryl,

    Do you have a multistandard VCR? How did you capture the PAL VHS source? Could you post a frame that includes animation?

    I have noticed that film to VHS tape transfers can have better gamma, contrast, black and color levels than the subsequent release on DVD. Similarly, I captured an NTSC VHS copy of Scrooge and turned it into a DVD that looks way better than the DVD release.

    Thanks,
    Mark
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  12. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Multi-standard and converting VCR's are two completely different things. Multi-standard players CHEAT or FOOL your TV into thinking the signal is genuine.....converting VCRs do a real and true PAL>NTSC<PAL conversion.

    Make sure you know the terminology correctly and know exactly what you are purchasing(retailers LIE....especially online ones) before you do anything.
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  13. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    I have noticed that film to VHS tape transfers can have better gamma, contrast, black and color levels than the subsequent release on DVD. Similarly, I captured an NTSC VHS copy of Scrooge and turned it into a DVD that looks way better than the DVD release.
    Those paramaters can be varied in the monitor as its doubtful that your VHS can rival the commercial DVD in any other manner than "levels" that can be tweaked for "this tape"...
    That is the lines per inch or dots per inch on a VHS capability level is not high compared to dvd capabilities
    I have 3/4' VIDEOTAPE source material and it can easily lose out to any true DVD quality sources
    (8.5Million Bits and thereabouts looks pretty good)
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  14. I used a Sony PAL format VCR. I conneced it to my Hauppauge card via composite video. Then I used Virtual VCR and set it up for PAL capture. Then it was just like capturing NTSC, except of course it was 25 fps and 720x576.


    Darryl
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  15. Here are some captures from my home-made DVD (fro the PAL VHS).










    Darryl
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  16. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Isn't the best source of this movie the Japanese LaserDisc?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  17. Here are some caps from the bootleg:










    Darryl
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  18. Hold on, I also have the Japanese LD. I got it after I made my DVD from the PAL VHS. I plan on making a new DVD when I get the time. The problem with the LD is that it has subtitles during the animated sequences, and some during the opening titles. But the picture is better than the Hong Kong LD (judging by what I have seen on this bootleg). The good thing about the Japanese LD is that it is telecined 3:2, instead of converted to PAL after the 3:2. In other words, it is reversible... meaning, I can get progressive frames from it.

    Here are some screen caps from the Japanese LD:







    Now, I didn't spend a lot of time getting these quick captures from my LD. Perhaps it can be improved with better settings. But I think it gives a pretty good idea of what to expect. The big noticeable difference I see is better color on the VHS. But the LD is definitely sharper. But then again, you have Japanese subtitles every time somebody starts singing, and also over the opening titles.


    Darryl
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  19. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    Fulci...You were kidding one hopes!
    as LASER disc has an added SN video proc amp issue
    (REMEMBER all the color noise visible in B&W fare>?)
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  20. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dcsos
    Fulci...You were kidding one hopes!
    as LASER disc has an added SN video proc amp issue
    (REMEMBER all the color noise visible in B&W fare>?)
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but LaserDisc is a better format than VHS and I knew that a Japanese LD of this movie existed so that is why I brought it up.

    I would rather have a DVD made from a LaserDisc than a DVD made from a VHS.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  21. Member luigi2000's Avatar
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    Those paramaters can be varied in the monitor as its doubtful that your VHS can rival the commercial DVD in any other manner than "levels" that can be tweaked for "this tape"...
    dcsos is wrong. Misadjusted video (or audio) signal levels, especially levels that are low, compressed and recorded to disc have lost the details that are in the original program. Attempts to correct poorly recorded levels at the monitor on playback reduces the signal to noise ratio by increasing noise which includes unwanted artifacts. Nonlinear correction like gamma cannot be performed by monitor adjustment. The same applies to defects in frequency response and envelope delay. Monitor adjustments are available primarily to keep the display faithful to the input signal. Monitors do not contain full-featured processing amplifiers. Black level is adjusted to see the dark details. Contrast (gain) is set depending on ambient light. Color level can go up and down, but cannot adjust for tilt or overshoot or delay. It bears repeating--monitor adjustments are available primarily to keep the display faithful to the input signal.

    Darryl,

    Wow! Your VHS capture is better than good. Please let me know if there is way I could obtain a copy. I haven't seen Song of the South since I was little. I only remember the music.

    Thanks,
    Mark
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  22. Here's a link to a website that is selling the NTSC DVD version of the movie for $18.

    http://www.songofthesouthdvdremastered.com
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  23. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    Ok I'll stand corrected to the extent that if you can put up with the decrease in RESOLUTION in order to enjoy some details of the secene that may have been lost in the higher resolution file.

    Not that I've seen pro jobs where the detail was actually lost, like I said , its usually a small error fixable by tweaking brightness, gamma of the monitor

    I admit to being wrong in the case of highly mistreated or CRUSHED PEDESTAL video transfers!
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  24. That appears to be the same bootleg I have. That's definitely the same menu, and the screen caps look about the same as well.


    Darryl
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  25. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Evening everyone.

    dphirschler,

    Nice VHS transfer. Much better than those BL's posted above C8)8)L
    (see guys.., I told you VHS can be a good source, even on occasions like this)

    Personally, I don't like to have sources originate from PAL->NTSC, because
    they usually prove heartship to me -- they bring me nothing but trouble.
    And they seem to come up every so often with a slight variation or twist
    to the processing.

    "Doctor Who" series was one of them, and it took me months to get it to
    the point where I could live with the end results I mustered up, through
    the avenue of AVIsynth scripts.

    Then, there's also another favorite of mine.. "Farscape". This one, I
    haven't yet delt with, rather I have been just processing as 29.970 interlace.
    (it's not a big deal.. I have been recording them all on VHS in EP mode
    as they come on, though these days, they air them at random times)

    Then, there's PBS broadcasts. These are british made-for-tv or other.
    For instance, last week, they aired Part I of "Prime Suspect"** -- a great piece
    of work, IMHHO, and tomorrow they will air Part II -- and I can't wait!

    I haven't disected this video yet, to see if it is an PAL->NTSC or Film.
    Its still on my vhs tape (EP mode) and its laying around somewhere's.
    I should probably give it a quicky though, just to be sure.

    More and more shows (that I'm fancying these days) are based on British
    (or BBC, or other PAL) works. And I'm finding it harder and harder to
    overlook the consideration of un-doing those that *are* PAL->NTSC.

    ** Masterpiece Theatre -- Prime Suspect VII: "The Final Act"

    But, the point of all this, is how much I hate these kinds of sources, but
    that I have to put up with them if I really want to archive them for future
    keep-sakes, etc.

    -vhelp 4123
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  26. I've been fortunate to have briefly owned the extremely rare Hong Kong NTSC rental laserdisc, and still own a Japanese NTSC laserdisc version of Song of the South. I sold the HK laserdisc to a collector for about $800 after I made a DVD copy of it.

    The bootleg DVD's are in fact made from that same HK laserdisc, but it is a very poor transfer. The HK laserdisc itself does not look nearly as good as the Japanese laserdisc. For one thing, the image is much softer and the color is washed out. The HK laserdisc also runs faster than the Japanese laserdisc because it apparently was a PAL to NTSC conversion.

    The Japanese laserdisc runs at the correct speed, and has a much sharper, more detailed and more colorful image than the HK laserdisc. The Japanese subtitles during the songs are not much of a distraction. I have both versions transferred to DVD and typically watch the Japanese laserdisc because the picture is so much better.
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    I'm not sure it's a great idea to dig up old posts from almost 3 months ago and comment on them, but since I'm not the one who started it...

    I bought the Japanese laserdisc years ago in the pre-DVD days. I have to say that you really have never lived until you've heard Uncle Remus speaking Japanese! (The laserdisc has selectable English and Japanese soundtracks for those who don't know.)
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  28. The HK laserdisc has English and Cantonese soundtracks...
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  29. I am finally getting around to converting my laserdisc. It's captured on the hdd now. I have it IVTC'ed progressive. The pattern changed about five times, including the flip to side 2. I had to compare it to the VHS to see how the two sides splice back together. I got it frame accurate. I just juiced up the saturation and now it is encoding.


    Darryl
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