Panasonic DMR-EH50 vs. JVC DR-MH300

[Cirruz]

Hi there,

First of all, I would like to say that it's not my intention to start a Panasonic/JVC flame-war with this thread. It's only a record of my observations and tests.

Six months ago I bought a Panasonic DMR-EH50 DVD recorder to convert some old VHS tapes to DVD. So, I started reading and posting in the forum, in order to identify the best way to accomplish the task with the available hardware and software. After reading many threads from lordsmurf and others about how bad the Panasonic units are, I got a bit sad about my purchase... And put my task on hold for a few months.

Last weekend, I noticed that the JVC DR-MH300 was being sold in a local store for a very good price (199€), so I gave it a try and bought one. Now I was able to do a head-to-head between the two units, and check with my eyes how bad the Panasonics are... WRONG! In terms of picture quality, to my amateur eyes (I would like to stress this) the two units are very similar in quality and the Panasonic is even superior in some situations. I will talk about the build quality and menu simplicity at the end.

The items involved in the test were:
- Panasonic DMR-EH50 DVD recorder (PAL, Panasonic chip), half-year old.
- JVC DR-MH300 DVD recorder (PAL, LSI chip), brand new.
- Watson VR-3770 VCR, old and rather used.
- BASF "High Standard" E-180 VHS tape with bad quality Babylon 5 recordings.
- TDK "For Daily Use" E-180 VHS tape with acceptable quality assorted recordings.
- Good quality shielded SCART-SCART cable.

The procedure was the following:
1. Record directly from the VCR.
2. Record to DVD-RW without any loss (high-speed copy).
3. Capture the frames with VirtualDub-MPEG2.
4. Photoshop CS2: zoom 1.5x, crop and save in JPEG format with Maximum quality.


The first captures are from the BASF tape:



Look at the faces and compare. The JVC faces clearly have more noise and, not noticeable here, the dark jackets have more "MPEG blocks".

Now, the captures from the TDK tape:



Here, the JVC has the edge in the blue zone over the truck wheel and in the guys hand. But the guys t-shirt and the girls arm and face look better on the Panasonic.

So, to my experience and regarding VHS capture, the JVC superiority over Panasonic it's not a proven fact. The picture quality is similar in both units and the Panasonic even look better in some situations.

Now, I returned the JVC unit and the reason wasn't picture quality. The main reasons were build quality and usability: the hard drive and exaust fan produce unacceptable noise levels and the menus are simply dumb. For example:

- Three menu levels are needed to reach the recordings (Navigation->Original->Select).
- When a recording is played, at the end the player pauses with the last frame and doesn't play the next recording. The user needs to return to the menu and select the next one.
- The forward and backward control is too slow.
- To get out of a menu system, the user needs to remember the key that used in the first place. For example, to exit navigation the "Navigation" key needs to be pressed, to exit setup, the "Set Up" key needs to be pressed. Wouldn't it be more logical to let the "Return" key do that?!? The "Return" key is only used to access the previous menu!
- To start recording, the user needs to press "Play" and "Rec"... Is the record function such dangerous that needs that level of protection?!?
- To stop recording, the used needs to press "Stop" twice. This makes more sense than the previous one, but again, a bit exagerated!

I could have lived with this user interface "glitches"... But the noise was really killing me. And even if the picture quality was noticeable superior, I still wouldn't let it be in my living room.

Again, I would like to say that I'm not a professional, I simply compared the units as an informed user. So, please don't be too violent with your critics to my test!

Thanks for reading!

Cirruz

[lordsmurf]

Still shots cannot compare image quality. It requires motion clips. Stills on an interlace frame are also a very poor choice.

At any rate, on my LCD screens (and I have NICE LCD screens!), the images are similar, but the Panasonic clearly has posterization (the beginnings of macroblock noise), as well as stark mosquito noise. Whatever you're seeing, I'm not.

Also, the bottom image is not the same. The JVC has heavier interlace on that exact frame, while the Panasonic does not. So there is absolutely no way to make a comparison there. What you probably think is noise is just an interlace threshold being crossed. Do not confuse it with noise.

I don't notice any difference between Panasonic and JVC fans. Both are quite decent, very low noise.

I wish we gotten the JVC DR-MH300 in the USA. I'd have bought one long ago.

[Cirruz]

Hi lordsmurf, thanks for your response.

Could the differences that I observed be explained by the fact that this JVC unit behaves differently with NTSC and PAL signals? Again, in my Sony TV and Samsung PC TFT, I didn't noticed any superiority over the Panasonic unit.

I say this because I own a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150 and this card is trash with PAL and very good with NTSC. This is related to the comb-filter poor performance with PAL signals. Could this be the case with the JVC unit?

About the noise: I've got two JVC units in my hands (the first one was already opened and I returned it to the store for a "sealed" one), and both sounded much louder that the Panasonic one. With "much louder" I mean, "distracting in the living room". I barely notice the Panasonic working.

Thanks again!

Cirruz

[Cyrax9]

Hi lordsmurf, thanks for your response.

Could the differences that I observed be explained by the fact that this JVC unit behaves differently with NTSC and PAL signals? Again, in my Sony TV and Samsung PC TFT, I didn't noticed any superiority over the Panasonic unit.

I say this because I own a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150 and this card is trash with PAL and very good with NTSC. This is related to the comb-filter poor performance with PAL signals. Could this be the case with the JVC unit?

About the noise: I've got two JVC units in my hands (the first one was already opened and I returned it to the store for a "sealed" one), and both sounded much louder that the Panasonic one. With "much louder" I mean, "distracting in the living room". I barely notice the Panasonic working.

Thanks again!

Cirruz

Cirruz--

I own a Panasonic DMR-E500H (US Model) and recently had the chance to mess around with a JVC SR-DVM70 at the college, and I can honestly say that the JVC does have a bit of an edge in quality. Lordsmurf noted that still caps (especially of interlaced video) aren't the best way to judge quality which is true -- I've made this mistake in the past myself, so I won't rehash the reasons as to why they're not good, but I can tell you that using an Apple LCD attached to a PowerBookG4 I can see macroblocking in both of those B5 images.

Let's get the fan noise out of the way first. When I went to get a hands on feel for the JVC SR-DVM70 it was quite quiet much like my Panasonic DMR-E500H is. However, I have had a rare occasion where the fan begins to whir obnoxiously to the point where I'm afraid it's going to break. The truth is that it's usually a loose bearing and sometimes just pushing against it has fixed it, on other occasions it's gone away on its own. The JVC was quiet the day I used it, but I spoke to the person who's in charge of our equipment at the college and she noted a similar issue on the JVC on an off occasion, apparently this is a fan being a fan, and you just got unlucky. In truth, I've had this happen on almost anything with an 8CM fan in it from PCs to DVD Recorders. Heck, I have a GameCube with a noisy fan and another that's quiet as can be. Your Panasonic will probably have the same issue in a year or so if you use it for long periods of time.

When the college purchased the JVC SR-DVM70 the person who owns it did mention that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Since we were using it to playback MiniDV tapes and make dubs quickly with a Sony VX2100 attached, I asked the lady who owns the DVM70 what she didn't like about the unit. She mentioned that the menus weren't very user friendly on it, and that they did have some design issues. This is obviously meant for semi-professional use since it's equipped with a BNC cable connector, but then again we realized that this was a set-top recorder and menus are generally unfriendly. I personally don't like the layout on the Panasonic DMR-E500H as much as the layout on the DMR-HS2 from Panasonic for similar menu unfriendliness, but the recorder is respectable usually.

Admittedly, one thing I don't like about the Panasonic design is that you can't play one program and have it stop, it runs continuously unlike the JVC, and I found that to be a bit bothersome on occasion, especially if I was trying to throw together a quick edit of something. However, I could see why a consumer might like this feature, especially if they're using it as a DVR/TiVo substitute. In truth I really think this is purely a matter of preference, and that both Panasonic and JVC ought to have an option in their set-up menus to play the hard drives recordings without stopping them or to stop after each recording, but that's just me.

The Rewind/Fast-Forward controls differ on the two units, this is true. Professionals like a slower Rewind/FF system since it's better for "scrubbing" the playback head when searching for a scene. I admit that the Panasonic is good at this, but I have to play at a near frame-by-frame rate on occasion to get the desired area I want to cut out actually cut. Again this is a semi-professional/prosumer vs. consumer difference.

The reason for the Play + Record method on the JVC unit is probably that many people are used to it. Although most of my recordings are done using a timer, you'd be surprised how many people have a tendency to press Play + Rec at the same time as a carryover from the days of analog tape. In the case of their MiniDV/HDD/DVD models this is probably a good idea since tape is tape and whether it's digital or analog there's always someone who forgot to lock the recording or will pull an "Everybody Loves Raymond" and record over an important tape. I used to think two-button recording was a pain, but it's actually a good way to make sure that the person recording actually wants to record. I've seen people start running our camcorders with one record button by bumping into them so it's probably worth having the two-button feature for the really inept user, and believe me they do exist. This is really a "professional" design feature since virtually all VTR decks, even those for MiniDV require two-buttons to start a recording.

As for the stop button, I haven't manually stopped a recording on my Panasonic in a long time, but I think you actually have to press Stop and then Enter or Stop + Enter. It's the same thing. If I had kids I'd want more security, like holding "Power" to "lock" the machine the way the old Sony VCRs would "Lock" if you held the power button, allowing only timer recordings to be set. This was actually a great way to ensure nobody took out the tape or messed up your recording by playing it. While HDD-based recorders have much more space on them, I still like some protection.

Also take a look at the "Fatal flaws" list for recorders that Lordsmurf has reviewed. Panasonic has a pretty large list and I've run into most of them. The most annoying one is the Dolby Digital/AC-3 Encoding issue which almost never lets me edit a recording with normal software. This isn't true of JVC recorders. Likewise I've noticed less Macroblocking using an "SP Mode" present on both JVC and Panasonic recorders. It seems that the closer you get to filling a hard drive, the likelier your chances of a problem are with Panasonic recorders, I have yet to see if the same is true of a JVC HDD/DVD Recorder.

It's also important to note that the JVC allows for more flexible recording settings, and a superior FR recording mode if needed. This is by no means to say that Panasonic is bad as I've had decent recordings from their machines, but I've had better recordings from JVC recorders with proper maintenance and clean drives.

I like my Panasonic recorders, but there are some features on the JVC models that give it an "edge" over Panasonic recorders (The truly flexible Flexible Recording mode being the big one.) Don't forget that JVC mostly caters to prosumers and semi-professionals while Panasonic is geared more towards low-tech families who need simplicity over compatibility with other equipment. While both are in the consumer range, they're targeting two different groups within a larger group.

I've found both brands of recorders to have their pros and cons (Panasonic recorders are usually cheaper than JVC recorders in my area even with discounts available,) although I'm leaning toward purchasing a JVC recorder of my own soon since I didn't mind the menus on the SR-DVM70 too much, and I found the more flexible settings to be a bonus.

I should also note that I didn't see much noise on those caps either and believe you may be confusing noise and interlacing as well. When I first started experimenting with video I made this mistake several times until I realized what an interlaced field looked like. Then it was fairly easy to figure out what was noise and what was just an interlaced field. In truth most noise I had was from tape drop-out on really old and heavily worn recordings. Newer recordings played quite well unless they were recorded on a VCR with poor tracking, and I admittedly had a few of these.

I'll let Lordsmurf handle your capture card question since I'm not sure I have the correct answer, but if you're capping to PAL DV-AVI then I would guess that, based on my limited knowledge of the difference between NTSC and PAL DV-AVI, that the answer is yes. Then again, that's just me making a guess based on what I know.

[trhouse]

I am not surprised by your results or conclusions. A recorders output depends partly on how it processes video and partly on the quality of the source. For example, if you had a pristine source to which you could add calibrated amounts of noise and were to apply this signal to these two brands simultaneously you will find that it is possible to make one look bad and then the other.

I have tested both brands. The JVC filters noise better but its filters cannot be turned off. If you were to do the test above and start with a noisy signal, the Panasonic with less filtering will block more making the JVC look better. As you reduce the noise, at some point they will start to look comparable as you found. As you decrease the noise more, the advantage shifts to the Panasonic which in the absence of noise looks a bit crisper since the JVC filters cannot be turned off.

That said, another element that enters the equation is that neither the EH50 or E500 are current models. The EH50 came out about the time of the ES10 which I have examined, the E500 dates from 2004. Since 2004 Panasonic has used three different mpeg encoders. The ES10 used an encoder made by Panasonic which ran so cool, it required no heatsink, so the ES10 did not need a fan. It was replaced by the ES20 which sported the LSI encoder used by JVC and runs hot so the ES20 did need a fan. The ES25 which is the newest generation sports an encoder with Panasonic's name on it but it runs as hot as the LSI part so at least one person, Gshelley61, has suggested although not confirmed that it is a private label LSI part.

All these changes affect how the recorder will handle blocking, noise, and where the crossover point occurs in the test above.

[davideck]

As you decrease the noise more, the advantage shifts to the Panasonic which in the absence of noise looks a bit crisper since the JVC filters cannot be turned off.

This difference becomes even more pronounced with higher resolution sources. If the goal is to preserve Hi8, S-VHS and commercial quality VHS sources in 1 or 2 hour capture mode, then the Panasonic has the advantage. If the goal is to capture in 3 or 4 hour mode, then the JVC may be the better choice.