HDMI, NTSC, and Pal

[Big C]

I downloaded some manuals to some multi-system players with HDMI output. I understand that 480I and 480P are the output resolutions for NTSC video signals, and 575I and 576P are the output resolutions for Pal video signals. Are 720P, 1080I, and 1080P nonspecific to NTSC and Pal? Does this mean that I can watch raw, unconverted NTSC or Pal DVDs on any television in any country as long as it is compatible with HDMI resolutions of 720I, 720P, 1080I, and 1080P? What happens at the resolutions of 780P, 1080I, and 1080P as far as NTSC and Pal are concerned?

[manono]

Hi-

The output for NTSC is 480i, and for PAL, 576i. If your player is progressive scan feeding a progressive display over a component or digital connection, then it is capable of intercepting the 480i/576i signal and converting to 480p/576p. If it is both progressive scan and upconverting, then it'll convert to whatever it says it can convert to.

For example, the Oppo DV-971H can be used in both NTSC and PAL countries as it has a universal power supply, and plenty of PAL people own one, as it does the best NTSC<->PAL conversion of just about any player. In addition, over DVI it converts to 480p, 540P, 576p, 720p, and 1080i. It also comes with a DVI->HDMI cable, and a native HDMI Oppo is due out very soon that can also upconvert to 1080p.

http://www.oppodigital.com/opdv971h.html
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all (it's at the top of a very large list)

Does this mean that I can watch raw, unconverted NTSC or Pal DVDs on any television in any country?

Hardly. Depends on the player and the TV. Using an Oppo I can, if the TV is willing. The Oppo is easily made region-free. Many players can't.

...as long as it is compatible with HDMI resolutions of 720I, 720P, 1080I, and 1080P?

You'll be watching at whatever resolution your TV is. 720p, 1080i, and 1080p are there because many HDTVs are of one of those resolutions. For example, my Samsung DLP has a native resolution of 1280x720, and I upconvert to 720p. If you have a plasma with a resolution of 1366x768, no matter if I convert to 480p, 720p, or 1080i, the TV will resize to its resolution.

Please correct me, edDV (or anyone else), if I've gotten anything wrong.

[FulciLives]

You probably want a DVD player that does PAL to NTSC conversion.

One of the very best if not they best is the OPDV971H by OPPO DIGITAL and what makes this model so good at PAL to NTSC conversion is the DCDi by Faroudja chipset it uses.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Big C]

Actually, I plan on purchasing a Yamaha DVD-C950 ( http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/YEC/DVD_Players/Manual/DVD-C950_e.pdf ), basicly a 5-disc changer version of the Oppo Digital DV-970HD ( http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd_manual.pdf and http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=...=0&mpeg=0#Oppo DigitalDV-970HD (HDMI) ). They both have the same MediaTek MT1389 chipset ( http://www.divxtest.com/form/divxtest2_view.php?lang=eng&id_200=1 for the Yamaha DVD-C950, and http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=...=0&mpeg=0#Oppo DigitalDV-970HD (HDMI) for the Oppo Digital DV-970HD). They both can play NTSC and Pal DVDs on corresponding, as well as opposite TVs. They can both be made multi-region compatible. They both have the same type of HDMI output. I am aware that 575I and 576P are the Pal counterparts of 480I and 480P. Do 720P, 1080I, and 1080P have Pal counterparts?

[edDV]

I haven't looked at multistandard over HDMI yet but can add this basic info.

1280x720p, 1920x1080i and 1920x1080p are the same picture resolutions for "NTSC" and "PAL" regions, are all 16:9 and pixels are square but frame rates differ.

"NTSC" will have at the YPbPr or HDMI cable interface level:
23.976 fps for raw film transfers
29.97 "telecine" for 1080i
59.94 fps for 720p (although 29.97 fps 720p also exists mostly from camcorders)

"PAL" will have at the YPbPr or HDMI cable interface level:
24 or 25 fps for raw film transfer
25 fps for 1080i
50 fps for 720p (some displays frame repeat to 100 fps)


For HD/BD movie DVD, the data on the disc is 1920x1080p 24 fps. There is no difference in the data format worldwide but region coding is used. The players determine the output standard.

"NTSC" players will provide
1080i, 29.97fps (telecine)
1080p, 59.94 fps
720p, 59.94 fps

"PAL" players will provide
1080i, 25 fps
1080p, 50 fps
720p, 50 fps

[FulciLives]

The MediaTek chipset used by the Oppo Digital DV-970HD has a "fatal flaw" for PAL DVD material in that it does not properly do 2:2 pulldown. This is essential for some (if not all) PAL DVD videos.

Based on comments I read on the avs forum website this "fatal flaw" as I call it is inherit in the MediaTek chipset meaning any DVD player using that MediaTek chipset will have this issue.

That is why I suggest the Oppo Digital OPDV971H which does 2:2 pulldown properly and will give you superior PAL to NTSC conversion.

I realize for some that PAL to NTSC is less a concern than to others but as a horror/cult/exploitation movie fan proper PAL to NTSC is very important to me since so many movies I own (from those genres) only have PAL DVD video releases.

I should point out that it is unclear to me if this "fatal flaw" is inherit to all MediaTek chipsets or just the particular flavor used by the Oppo Digital DV-970HD. I know some users said that the newer Pioneer models (DV-393-s and DV-490-s) also suffer the same fate and I know they use MediaTek chipsets with the DV-490-s using the same one in use by the DV-970HD (at least again that is my understanding).

So what is the big difference?

Well the DV-970HD will give you a very clear picture but compared to the OPDV971H the DV-970HD will have a slight "jaggy" look to it ... some would call it a "star-step" effect ... whereas you will NOT get that look with the OPDV971H.

How noticeable it is I suppose depends on the size of your TV and viewing distance and how keen your eye is.

For instance I have a good friend that bought the Philips DVP-5140 (MediaTek chipset) a month or two ago because he is on a tight budget but needed a new region free PAL to NTSC DVD player making the OPDV971H out of his price range so when he asked me what to buy (knowing my expertise) I suggested the DVP-5140 and told him how to hack it to be region free (thanks to the videohelp.com DVD Hacks section). He told me that he thought the image quality of the PAL to NTSC conversion was great ... much better he said than what he saw with his old Malata N-996 and Cyberhome CH-DVD 402.

However bear in mind that he only has a 27" SDTV and is using composite video ... also I have yet to see the Philips DVP-5140 with my own eyes (been meaning to ask him to bring it over one day so I can hook it up to my 51" 16x9 HDTV and test it out).

I suspect with a critical eye that the "jaggies" are there.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Big C]

Indeed the benchmark scores are at 98% for the 971H. However, it does not play SACD. The 970HD and the Yamaha changer I mentioned can play both DVD-A and SACD. I currently use the Yamaha DV-C6770 (aka DVD-C750) via its composite video output. Although I have no written proof, based on its features and performance, I would assume that it too uses the MediaTek MT1389. When playing Pal DVDs over my 8-year-old Magnavox NTSC TV through an RF modulater, its Pal-to-NTSC conversion is flawless as far as my family and I can tell. I own a cheep CyberHome DVD 300 which blinks and has lipsync problems when attempting to play Pal DVDs on it. I have a Pioneer HTD-540DV HTiB which I think would be the equivalent of their DV-563/565 stand-alone model, which is better than my CyberHome, but nowhere close to my current Yamaha. I have critically studied the Secrets of Home Theater Benchmark and they said that the MediaTek MT1389EE/FE (the Oppo Digital DV-970HD, the Oppo Digital OPDV-971H, the Pioneer dv-578 and the Pioneer DV-588) do some fine Pal-to-NTSC conversion. However, I believe that they said that other MediaTek chipsets (I forget which ones) did not handle 2:2 material that well. But of course, home consumers like us are just as important as lab results because our homes are the ultimate destinations of this equipment, making its evaluation there very helpful in our purchasing decisions.

[manono]

However, it does not play SACD.

Which wasn't one of your stated requirements, until now.

The Oppo DV-970HD doesn't do 2:2 pulldown (as FulciLives described in detail), which makes it less than ideal for PAL to NTSC conversions. Yes, it does them, but not as well as does the 971H. It'll just deinterlace way too much material. The same is also true (I believe) for all MTK chipset based players:

http://www.oppodigital.com/opdv971h_compare.html

The Oppo DV-981HD due out just before the end of the year will have all the features of the 971H, but with HDMI, 1080p upconversion, and SACD. It's said it'll cost just a bit more than the 971H.

[FulciLives]

The Oppo DV-981HD due out just before the end of the year will have all the features of the 971H, but with HDMI, 1080p upconversion, and SACD. It's said it'll cost just a bit more than the 971H.

My understanding is that the new model replacing the OPDV971H will still have the DCDI by Faroudja chipset so hopefully it will have no PAL to NTSC issues.

@Big C
For me PAL to NTSC is way more important than SACD. I mean are you buying a music player or movie player?

I don't get your requirements?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

Hi-

My understanding is that the new model replacing the OPDV971H will still have the DCDI by Faroudja chipset so hopefully it will have no PAL to NTSC issues.

Yes that's true. Which is why I said it'll have all the features of the 971H, the primary one being the Faroudja chipset, as well as an MTK chipset. PAL<->NTSC will be equally good. By the way, as I'm sure you know, FulciLives, but not everyone does, the Faroudja kicks in only over a digital connection. If all you have is component, it's pointless to buy the 971H or its successor.

[FulciLives]

Hi-

My understanding is that the new model replacing the OPDV971H will still have the DCDI by Faroudja chipset so hopefully it will have no PAL to NTSC issues.

Yes that's true. Which is why I said it'll have all the features of the 971H, the primary one being the Faroudja chipset, as well as an MTK chipset. PAL<->NTSC will be equally good. By the way, as I'm sure you know, FulciLives, but not everyone does, the Faroudja kicks in only over a digital connection. If all you have is component, it's pointless to buy the 971H or its successor.

I have HDMI on my TV so I am all good there but I didn't know that it only kicked it via DVI/HDMI so that is good to know! Somehow I missed that bit of ummm crucial information

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

Hehe:

The DVI video board in the player houses the Genesis FLI-2310 video processing chip, so the component video connections cannot take advantage of it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=...deInt=0&mpeg=0

[Big C]

My requirements are a changer that does good Pal-to-NTSC conversion with easy region hacking ( https://www.videohelp.com/dvdhacks.php?select=Yamaha+DVD+C950 ), HDMI, SACD, and DVD-A. It is a shame that this model only has DCDi by Faroudja via the component video output. It does have HDMI up to 1080I. So I guess it would perform like the Oppo Digital DV-970HD as far as HDMI is concerned. The reason I like changers is so I don't have to spend hours of annoying time making single-disc DivXs, MP3s, WMAs, etc. of DVD/CD sets or custom movie and background music DVD/CD combos. So does that mean the Yamaha DVD-C950 ( http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/YEC/DVD_Players/Manual/DVD-C950_e.pdf ) looks like a good compromise for a jack-of-all-trades changer?

[Big C]

According to the secrets review, the 970 handels 2:2 just fine.

The MediaTek chipset used by the Oppo Digital DV-970HD has a "fatal flaw" for PAL DVD material in that it does not properly do 2:2 pulldown. This is essential for some (if not all) PAL DVD videos.

Based on comments I read on the avs forum website this "fatal flaw" as I call it is inherit in the MediaTek chipset meaning any DVD player using that MediaTek chipset will have this issue.

That is why I suggest the Oppo Digital OPDV971H which does 2:2 pulldown properly and will give you superior PAL to NTSC conversion.

I realize for some that PAL to NTSC is less a concern than to others but as a horror/cult/exploitation movie fan proper PAL to NTSC is very important to me since so many movies I own (from those genres) only have PAL DVD video releases.

I should point out that it is unclear to me if this "fatal flaw" is inherit to all MediaTek chipsets or just the particular flavor used by the Oppo Digital DV-970HD. I know some users said that the newer Pioneer models (DV-393-s and DV-490-s) also suffer the same fate and I know they use MediaTek chipsets with the DV-490-s using the same one in use by the DV-970HD (at least again that is my understanding).

So what is the big difference?

Well the DV-970HD will give you a very clear picture but compared to the OPDV971H the DV-970HD will have a slight "jaggy" look to it ... some would call it a "star-step" effect ... whereas you will NOT get that look with the OPDV971H.

How noticeable it is I suppose depends on the size of your TV and viewing distance and how keen your eye is.

For instance I have a good friend that bought the Philips DVP-5140 (MediaTek chipset) a month or two ago because he is on a tight budget but needed a new region free PAL to NTSC DVD player making the OPDV971H out of his price range so when he asked me what to buy (knowing my expertise) I suggested the DVP-5140 and told him how to hack it to be region free (thanks to the videohelp.com DVD Hacks section). He told me that he thought the image quality of the PAL to NTSC conversion was great ... much better he said than what he saw with his old Malata N-996 and Cyberhome CH-DVD 402.

However bear in mind that he only has a 27" SDTV and is using composite video ... also I have yet to see the Philips DVP-5140 with my own eyes (been meaning to ask him to bring it over one day so I can hook it up to my 51" 16x9 HDTV and test it out).

I suspect with a critical eye that the "jaggies" are there.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Perhaps Oppo Digital updated the firmware for the DV-970HD

Notice this thread was from a while back.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman